Spring Rates & Suspension - very interesting research

[szejok666]

I've been looking for explanation how suspension and spring rates really work in GT6, and I've found this:

http://www.nextgenupdate.com/forums/gran-turismo-6/730382-gt6-game-physics-testing-9.html

It's written by the user named SiNiST3R, apparently research is based on in-game code. I think it's very, very interesting especially for Users, who are trying to replicate real-life suspensions in GT6. And I think it might be true overall. But I know for sure that one thing is true, because I've been testing cars for past 2 moths to find out the same thing:
"Default stock suspension have different suspensions vs the adjustable EVEN when the settings are matched. (...) Each car has a different set of antiroll bars and most are different front to rear. when in stock, racing soft/hard or rally the ARB are all the same with a fixed range, but the adjustable ARB have a min and max range of resistance and the setting the stock racing soft/hard and rally suspensions use is unobtainable, usually slightly stiffer than a 1 setting but much softer than a 2 setting on the adjustable set."

Even, if You disagree with it, it's really worth reading. Don't know if the user SiNiST3R has a profile on GTPlanet, but I think he's done great job.

 

[DaBomm4]

FYI SiNiST3R has been banned multiple times from GTPlanet, originally as JackNapier IIRC.

 

[PJTierney]

FYI SiNiST3R has been banned multiple times from GTPlanet, originally as JackNapier IIRC.

That may be true but if you ignore the attitude and comments regarding other members some of his analysis is genuinely quite interesting. I initially started reading up on his works regarding camber but his analysis of gearing and suspension are worth reading.

 

[szejok666]

Actually, it's the first analysis I've encountered that is supposedly based on in-game code. Nevermind the attitude, the research and conclusions itself seems quite right. And if the spring rates, dampers and anti roll bars in GT6 are set and working in the way he found out, all of the replica tune cars posted on this forum aren't actually be replicas at all, which would be quite sad frankly

 

[CSLACR]

If I recall correctly, he made the same claims in GT5, meanwhile I taught him how some it it actually worked. That's not to say, of course, that his current theories are definitively wrong, but there's always someone with every theory for tuning every way.

 

[szejok666]

The one aspect of this, that I'm pretty sure it's true, and it's my main interest in GT6 lately is the spring rates. Trying to input real life spring rate data in GT6 often ends up in a mess. For most of the time, real values are much lower, than minimum values that can be set in GT6 (MX5 or s13 Silvia for example). Then if we find a car, where it can be done the things aren't looking quite good. In Subaru BRZ the actual real life spring rates can be set (F: 2.7kgf.mm R: 3.5kgf/mm if I recall correctly), but the the car rolls badly in the corners, even with comfort hards (rear wheels deep inside the wheel arches on hard corners). On the other hand we have cars, which based on real life data are much softer in the game, than they are in the real life (both Corvette Z06, the 2004 and 2006). When we apply real spring rates in GT6, both cars become rock hard and pretty undriveable in GT6, with almost no body roll, especially on the rear).
This leads me to a point, that there is no point of trying to implicate real life spring rate values in GT6, because it will not work like it should. The interesting thing is however, that in previous GT incarnations stock spring rates values were often realistic, especially in japanese cars.

 

[killerjimbag]

You cannot set CASTER values in the game. End of conversation!

 

[DolHaus]

Having spoken to the guy about some of his theories in the past I feel that he has some interesting ideas and a good knowledge of the games coding, that said he also has a habit of getting fixated on one idea and chasing irrelevant/circumstantial evidence followed by arguing himself into yet another ban.

When looking at any theory you just need to ask yourself "Can I use this information to improve my performance or experience?". Take them all with a pinch of salt and never commit to an idea unless you can genuinely see gains as a result, information and theory are all well and good but if it doesn't equal results then it is simply just another idea with some numbers attached

 

[OdeFinn]

You cannot set CASTER values in the game. End of conversation!

True, but there is static caster coded on game.
Do you know what happens on front tires camber and toe during braking? What role caster plays there?

 

[szejok666]

Of course I don't automatically believe in everything I read, especially in video game mechanics and physics theory written by a player. But in this case, most of conclusions corresponds to what I've found myself playing actual game. I don't either support or deny camber theory, because I haven't tested, or ever been focused if it is working properly. I'm not a tuner in the sense, that I'm improving cars, making them faster, better handling etc. I'm primarily interested in maintaining, or making if it's possible stock cars more realistic to drive. I wouldn't be even touching stock suspensions, if the weights and weight distributions were correct. And also even I know, that all cars in GT6 have independent suspensions, seeing negative camber and a lot of standard toe in on rear axle of my '70 Charger on replays annoys me very much Thanks to this I had to finally install full customizable suspension in GT6 to set camber and toe. Then i started thinking about and analysing the rest of suspension settings. I've found for example that cars with identical suspensions in real life often have different spring rates (both Viper SRT10, or both c5 Corvette Z06), and that GT6 values don't correspond to real life values. The only car I can think of where they are similar is DC2 Integra Type R.

 

[szejok666]

By the way before that suspension problem that I think I have encountered (it's good to have a hobby, isn't it ) I tested and compared real life lap times with those that can be achieved in game to find out the right, most true to life tires in GT6. I watched tons of Best Motoring videos, and compared lap times on practically every real life track available in game (see Fastest Laps website) Believe it or not, but I've been doing this for about 2 years since GT5 and couldn't get to any meaningful conclusions, until I started messing with the weight distribution and setting it realistically. Then suddenly all started to work. At this point I think I know which tires are closest to real life ones in most road cars in GT6. Now I'm trying to figure out suspensions

Sorry for double post

 

[killerjimbag]

True, but there is static caster coded on game.
Do you know what happens on front tires camber and toe during braking? What role caster plays there?

So you agree that you cannot set caster in the game! Who truly cares what happens when you brake,the game is not even close to real world. Its a broke "video" game. Code is code,you did not,nor did Sinister develope or program the code. To pretend he or whomever know what's actually happening in the game is comical to say the least. That's why we play the game and don't code the game.

 

[OdeFinn]

So you agree that you cannot set caster in the game! Who truly cares what happens when you brake,the game is not even close to real world. Its a broke "video" game. Code is code,you did not,nor did Sinister develope or program the code. To pretend he or whomever know what's actually happening in the game is comical to say the least. That's why we play the game and don't code the game.

Lot of text, but no answer.
I'll use example as VW 1200 '66 beetle, I have tuned it and yes it uses camber, but cause of working camber and caster I have to use positive toe in on front tires to get them go on toe neutral and/or minimalistic negative toe during cornering and braking.
But as seen above you probably don't have a clue about this and why this is so, we can just let this be as is.
Will put that beetle tune public later tonight or tomorrow, for interested to test difference on caster effect.

 

[killerjimbag]

Lot of text, but no answer.
I'll use example as VW 1200 '66 beetle, I have tuned it and yes it uses camber, but cause of working camber and caster I have to use positive toe in on front tires to get them go on toe neutral and/or minimalistic negative toe during cornering and braking.
But as seen above you probably don't have a clue about this and why this is so, we can just let this be as is.
Will put that beetle tune public later tonight or tomorrow, for interested to test difference on caster effect.

Caster does not work,you agreed. Therefore, suspension geometry is broke. So not to be long winded, it doesn't matter.

 

[CSLACR]

GT6 preferred suspension of choice.

 

[szejok666]

From the SiNiST3R geometry analysis about caster, if You're interested:
"I can also confirm to you with 100% certainty that PD in GT6 uses the toe angle independent at each wheel and does not use the total toe. The setting for each wheel is separated. Applying lets say a 0.25 front toe angle has 2 settings applied to the car FrontToeR 0.25 and FrontToeL 0.25 its acually like this for any front or rear setting that applies to the 2 sides left and right. Damper Settings have DampExtL & DampExtR for example, the only wheel angle setting I cannot split is the castor angle, its uses one value for the 2 front wheels & The castor angle varies from car to car, but it looks like they only vary between a few different figures, 7-10 are to of the most popular."

 

[OdeFinn]

Caster does not work,you agreed. Therefore, suspension geometry is broke. So not to be long winded, it doesn't matter.

I agreed at caster is not tunable, but not at it won't work. Caster itself is there and working.
If you really think or feel at it's not there or working I really wonder where you get your ideas to argue, caster is so easy to see being there and working.

 

[szejok666]

The part about the total toe is interesting, will try to take jay leno tank car and find out if it's possible to measure it graphically

Edit: Acually it's quite hard for me to take good photo, but the car with its wheels in the open and 0.60 standard toe is suitable for this kind of job. I'm just not skilled enough to take a photo from the sky, that will provide any meaningful measurements.

 

[DaBomm4]

That may be true but if you ignore the attitude and comments regarding other members some of his analysis is genuinely quite interesting. I initially started reading up on his works regarding camber but his analysis of gearing and suspension are worth reading.

I tried a few times to talk with him and understand what he was trying to get across, I even tried to use what he was saying, but I was not getting similar results to what he was suggesting. Now all I hear from him is this.

Spoiler

Ladies and Gentlemen, skinny and stout,
I'll tell you a tale I know nothing about;
The Admission is free, so pay at the door,
Now pull up a chair and sit on the floor.

One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead boys got up to fight;
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other.

A blind man came to watch fair play,
A mute man came to shout "Horray!"
A deaf policeman heard the noise and
Came to stop those two dead boys.

He lived on the corner in the middle of the block,
In a two-story house on a vacant lot;
A man with no legs came walking by,
and kicked the lawman in his thigh.

He crashed through a wall without making a sound,
into a dry creek bed and suddenly drowned;
The long black hearse came to cart him away,
But he ran for his life and is still gone today.

I watched from the corner of the big round table,
The only eyewitness to facts of my fable;
But if you doubt my lies are true,
Just ask the blind man, he saw it too.

 

[TurnLeft]

I tried a few times to talk with him and understand what he was trying to get across, I even tried to use what he was saying, but I was not getting similar results to what he was suggesting. Now all I hear from him is this.

Spoiler

Ladies and Gentlemen, skinny and stout,
I'll tell you a tale I know nothing about;
The Admission is free, so pay at the door,
Now pull up a chair and sit on the floor.

One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead boys got up to fight;
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other.

A blind man came to watch fair play,
A mute man came to shout "Horray!"
A deaf policeman heard the noise and
Came to stop those two dead boys.

He lived on the corner in the middle of the block,
In a two-story house on a vacant lot;
A man with no legs came walking by,
and kicked the lawman in his thigh.

He crashed through a wall without making a sound,
into a dry creek bed and suddenly drowned;
The long black hearse came to cart him away,
But he ran for his life and is still gone today.

I watched from the corner of the big round table,
The only eyewitness to facts of my fable;
But if you doubt my lies are true,
Just ask the blind man, he saw it too.

 

[Otaliema]

You cannot set CASTER values in the game. End of conversation!

I tried a few times to talk with him and understand what he was trying to get across, I even tried to use what he was saying, but I was not getting similar results to what he was suggesting. Now all I hear from him is this.

Spoiler

Ladies and Gentlemen, skinny and stout,
I'll tell you a tale I know nothing about;
The Admission is free, so pay at the door,
Now pull up a chair and sit on the floor.

One fine day in the middle of the night,
Two dead boys got up to fight;
Back to back they faced each other,
Drew their swords and shot each other.

A blind man came to watch fair play,
A mute man came to shout "Horray!"
A deaf policeman heard the noise and
Came to stop those two dead boys.

He lived on the corner in the middle of the block,
In a two-story house on a vacant lot;
A man with no legs came walking by,
and kicked the lawman in his thigh.

He crashed through a wall without making a sound,
into a dry creek bed and suddenly drowned;
The long black hearse came to cart him away,
But he ran for his life and is still gone today.

I watched from the corner of the big round table,
The only eyewitness to facts of my fable;
But if you doubt my lies are true,
Just ask the blind man, he saw it too.

Sounds like jack to me. Even when you try to side with him and understand he thinks you're trying to shut him down so he closes up.

My sediment exactly sir.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I seriously would take a moment and think........IF HE is so smart and knowledgeable, why does he keep getting banned here?

Why does he have so much hate and bitterness, that all he can post about is how most here are all wrong? If he is on another site, then he should ignore GTP BUT I'm sure he is still lurking.

Likely has few "friends" and needs to post using foul language to feel better about himself.

If you agree with him then good for you, if not then just ignore him.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

I apologize first for the double post, second for waking up someone who says GTP HAS GOTTEN STALE! Guess its so stale he keeps reading.

I'm not a dumb... as you suggest, I know full well why you keep getting banned. Tried to be civil but you are just a petulant bitter child. Better driver than me maybe and that's ok, I sleep well at night. And since I know you will read this I say............... Hi!

 

[killerjimbag]

Don't even bother feeding the troll and his friends. I still have not seen him post one single tune, just a bunch of blah,blah,blah. As for his buddies that are on this site and hide on the other site,well its all good. Keep making your pretend cars.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Hate to correct you killer, but there is this one in his garage.



MURDER MUIRA

This is such a quick car I can see it being a killer, most thinking it will end up in the dirt but I think it will sit at the top of many podiums at the end of the day. If your lining up and you see this Murder Muira get ready to chase for second place.

Tuned for Online Racing at 550pp running RS tires, this is a BASE Set Up, because I'm racing this car also How you get her to 550pp will be up to you and the set up is a tuning starting point, driver may find benefits tweaking the tune a bit to their driving style or particular track however the base set up is well rounded and generally fast.

Ride Height
90/95
Spring Rates
7.00/7.00
Comp
5/3
Ext
6/5
Antiroll bars
6/2
Camber(-)
4.0/3.5
Toe
-0.50/0.55

Transmission it will depend on the performance parts installed I suggest using the Max Slider to track tune. I might add a gear set in the future that can be track tuned with the FD.

Differential
I/A/D
5/20/10

Brakes set to start at 5/5


At this point the car will be super super tight, except you may notice its tight tight tight until a lil throttle oversteer if your too hefty on the pedal, the rear wing option can cool this down at this point. I like the rear end still having the ability to get pushed out on throttle as the tune allows for it to be caught with a lil counter steer vs most that snap spin at that point.

First step is figuring if your going for the wing or not remembering the tune will be tight. Once decided use ONLY as much down force as you need JUST for that lil bit of rear stability.

Hit the Track for some Online Racing and Have Fun

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Hate to correct you killer, but there is this one in his garage.



MURDER MUIRA

This is such a quick car I can see it being a killer, most thinking it will end up in the dirt but I think it will sit at the top of many podiums at the end of the day. If your lining up and you see this Murder Muira get ready to chase for second place.

Tuned for Online Racing at 550pp running RS tires, this is a BASE Set Up, because I'm racing this car also How you get her to 550pp will be up to you and the set up is a tuning starting point, driver may find benefits tweaking the tune a bit to their driving style or particular track however the base set up is well rounded and generally fast.

Ride Height
90/95
Spring Rates
7.00/7.00
Comp
5/3
Ext
6/5
Antiroll bars
6/2
Camber(-)
4.0/3.5
Toe
-0.50/0.55

Transmission it will depend on the performance parts installed I suggest using the Max Slider to track tune. I might add a gear set in the future that can be track tuned with the FD.

Differential
I/A/D
5/20/10

Brakes set to start at 5/5


At this point the car will be super super tight, except you may notice its tight tight tight until a lil throttle oversteer if your too hefty on the pedal, the rear wing option can cool this down at this point. I like the rear end still having the ability to get pushed out on throttle as the tune allows for it to be caught with a lil counter steer vs most that snap spin at that point.

First step is figuring if your going for the wing or not remembering the tune will be tight. Once decided use ONLY as much down force as you need JUST for that lil bit of rear stability.

Hit the Track for some Online Racing and Have Fun

That's it, a "base" tune? No trans?


Ok

 

[killerjimbag]

Hate to correct you killer, but there is this one in his garage.



MURDER MUIRA

This is such a quick car I can see it being a killer, most thinking it will end up in the dirt but I think it will sit at the top of many podiums at the end of the day. If your lining up and you see this Murder Muira get ready to chase for second place.

Tuned for Online Racing at 550pp running RS tires, this is a BASE Set Up, because I'm racing this car also How you get her to 550pp will be up to you and the set up is a tuning starting point, driver may find benefits tweaking the tune a bit to their driving style or particular track however the base set up is well rounded and generally fast.

Ride Height
90/95
Spring Rates
7.00/7.00
Comp
5/3
Ext
6/5
Antiroll bars
6/2
Camber(-)
4.0/3.5
Toe
-0.50/0.55

Transmission it will depend on the performance parts installed I suggest using the Max Slider to track tune. I might add a gear set in the future that can be track tuned with the FD.

Differential
I/A/D
5/20/10

Brakes set to start at 5/5


At this point the car will be super super tight, except you may notice its tight tight tight until a lil throttle oversteer if your too hefty on the pedal, the rear wing option can cool this down at this point. I like the rear end still having the ability to get pushed out on throttle as the tune allows for it to be caught with a lil counter steer vs most that snap spin at that point.

First step is figuring if your going for the wing or not remembering the tune will be tight. Once decided use ONLY as much down force as you need JUST for that lil bit of rear stability.

Hit the Track for some Online Racing and Have Fun

But I thought he was a Real World Physics tuning guy,using RS tires? Ha ha. Go watch his real world Lexus Vision GT video, nice editing by the way. Isn't that a pretend "real world car". Never mind silly me this is a video game,nothing real world applies.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

But I thought he was a Real World Physics tuning guy,using RS tires? Ha ha. Go watch his real world Lexus Vision GT video, nice editing by the way. Isn't that a pretend "real world car". Never mind silly me this is a video game,nothing real world applies.

Nah, it was a request tune. That's why it wasn't finished.

Never ever checked his posts elsewhere before today, yup, some old nonsense. The mods here actually do there job which is why he always gets banned. Over there mods must be sleeping.

Last word SiNiST3R................bye!

 

[killerjimbag]

Looks like some replica guy and a Northern European are good friends with him,surprised they don't give him credit for their tunes. Funny how you can find things out. Oh and he runs a hacked PS3 to boot.

 

[OdeFinn]

Northern European are good friends with him

Hoping at this is not targeted to me, I'm friend of no-one.
Actually after seeing how much anti-hype this sinister/+aliases had to check his postings on linked site I started to like some of his ideas, not saying at I'm totally on same line, but seeing lot of similarities in his ideas as I have.
Cutting all personal bs out and reading only informative part and he got some good perspective, also has some biased thoughts in, but I'm 100% sure at that kind of person is ready to change his opinions if someone proofs those wrong, not by just saying those are wrong, but showing reason why. Sad for some over here at there is not much what to prove wrong.
Personally I have seen this "picture or it doesn't exist"-, "teach me all about mechanics"-, "show me how it calculated"-, "no-one can feel things like that"- type attacks. Easy to get warnings and ban if you got boiled over on those.

That guy seems bit hot blooded, but hey who won't boil if you don't get proper arguing, just kindergarten "You are... No you are...".

Edit 8th April: sad to see today how much bs was added to that linked thread.
Nice to see at he is reading this too, sinister can you check my garage about LSD things, if you could open that out from game code I would be pleased, thanks.