SRT-4 owners and lovers NO HATERS

[boombexus]

Originally posted by SRT Rocket

Also also wow look at the time, I guess I have no life

The SRT-4 just doesn't get the chic's huh?

 

[SRT Rocket]

Originally posted by boombexus
The SRT-4 just doesn't get the chic's huh?

No but my stylin' high and tight haircut sure does HAHAha...ha.......sigh. I think I'll nip off and shoot myself

 

[Duke]

Originally posted by SRT Rocket
Other than than the engine? As I have said in other threads the brakes are very impressive, which is neccessary in a car capable of the speeds the SRT-4 is. I also think the handeling of the car is also underated. Whlie not as sharp as an ITR (which I have driven,and loved every minute of it) It does have a good amount of grip, and with some camber in the wheels could be much better( Has zero from the factory.) and the cars balance is very good for a front driver and the car is very responsive to throttle lift midcorner.
Oh and by the way I have no little sister

Rocket: Did you happen to go to that www.neons.org link I posted? They are the guys you want to talk to. I've been a member over there for 7 years or so, and the people who know what they're talking about hang out there. Even some PVO guys lurk around, though for political reasons they stay pretty quiet. Erich Heuschele, a DCX chassis engineer and the guy who drove the 8th-place-overall SRT in the One Lap, used to be a very active member and is still in contact with some of us.

On the camber issue, DO IT. Go to the parts counter and order the "camber adjusting bolt package", also known as "crash bolts", for the front end. I did that on both Neons, dialling in about -2 degrees camber in front, with a tiny amount of toe in. It made a world of difference in the handling. Also, look into the second-gen ACR swaybars, which probably bolt up to the SRT and may be stiffer (I don't know the stock diameters for the SRT).

Good luck, man, and really, check out neons.org.

[EDIT] Miata13b, adding negative camber in front will make a huge difference in the understeer. It really flattens out the stance of the contact patch on the outside front tire, adding a lot of grip for an FWD car. Don't listen to whoever does your alignment, either, whenb they tell you it will make the tires wear badly. My front tires wear much more evenly after I dialled in the negative camber than they did before; another indication of the difference it makes. [/EDIT]

 

[SRT Rocket]

Thanks neon_duke. I'll head over there as soon as I am done here. One question though. I though the springs and shock setup (need more info on those inverted shocks you mentioned, like will they fit with the pro kit I want and where to get them.) that I was talking about offered the adjustablity I was looking for without resorting to crash bolts. Or do I need the crash bolts still?

 

[Duke]

I don't really know what's available for the SRT. I used the crash bolts on both my wife's Neon Sport and my ACR, and they're holding just fine to spirited street driving.

If you do order Mopar Performance parts, mailorder them from Fenton Dodge in Michigan. The parts manager there, Jim, is a great knowledgeable guy, and he discounts pretty well.

 

[miata13B]

Originally posted by SRT Rocket
Now miata13b. I can tell you from 1500 mi of personal experiance over highly varied conditions that there is much more to the SRT-4 than the straightaway. The thing will tuck in nicely with a well timed throttle lift. Of course it will always have a tedency to understeer as all front drivers do. I am not saying the mazda is not better than the SRT in corners(vorners?) I am just trying to say that the SRT-4 takes a corner much bettwer than most people give ti credit for, after all it does a 600ft slalom just 1mph slower the the mazdaspeed.(69mph vs 70mph) And frankly both these numberas are way up there. But again no good car can be summed up by numbers alone. Trust me it handles And could you please tell me why those skinny ass tires suit the chassis, I have my heart set on some fat 225s. And some negitve camber will give some additional girp in the corners.
Also where the hell are the other SRT-4 owners?! They are all a bunch of peener tweeners for abandoning me like this
Also also wow look at the time, I guess I have no life

Ok you have been offended by what I said SRT Rocket, you don't need to go into your experience with driving the car. This is not about justifying yourself over others, that would defeat anything we are trying to discuss here and in the end this thread will get closed because of a fight or two. That is not what I am trying to do here. Adding some negative camber to the car wil add additional grip in the corners. The thing about it is with more grip will come more understeer. I think what you are trying to add along with the camber that you didn't mention was a little additional negative toe. That would give you the grip on the outside tire with it pointed inwards of the turn being taken. That would help with the understeer. I actually think the car is a very formidable car, I am sorry about a misconcpetion I made previously. But, I am asking for some research done before you say only camber would fix an understeer problem. There are far more things that need to be done then just that and toe changes.

Originally posted by neon_duke


[EDIT] Miata13b, adding negative camber in front will make a huge difference in the understeer. It really flattens out the stance of the contact patch on the outside front tire, adding a lot of grip for an FWD car. Don't listen to whoever does your alignment, either, whenb they tell you it will make the tires wear badly. My front tires wear much more evenly after I dialled in the negative camber than they did before; another indication of the difference it makes. [/EDIT]

Neon, I know you are very educated in many things and what you say I always listen to what you have to say. But this Neon I have to disagree with you in the matter of losing understeer. The camber will add grip, I do not disagree with that, but without any negative toe, that car will grip twice as hard in the turn and adding to understeer as you light the tires up. Your throttle control on the car will have to be done with percision to execute a turn properly with just camber added. Well, that goes for any car and setup to tell the truth. You are forgetting that the tires will still be pointed straight foward and with only about 33 degrees of turn angle on most cars, which I believe that the SRT-4 is in that category, you are relying heavily on that outter tire to take you around the turn. If you had introduced negative toe along with the camber your statement of turn would definately be more valid. There is truth to what you said about the camber, but in the end just that aalone will add understeer. You also would point out in this situation too that only those two things are not going to make the best handling car either, you also need to adjust the limited-slip on the car and spring rates, dampers, stabs, tie rods, control arms, etc. all the suspension components.

 

[Duke]

Well, I agree in principle that you want a little toe in... but it's not required at all, and the negative camber will still reduce understeer. Adding grip at the front, which you are doing wtih the negative camber, cannot add understeer. Unless, as you say, you are talking about spinning the front tires on exit... in which case toe won't help you either, because you've broken the traction of the front wheels. If we are talking about a plain turn, taken fast but without spinning the tires, negative camber with zero toe will reduce understeer. I've got my wife's car set up with -2 degrees camber in front and zero toe, and it made a notable difference in the handling balance.

Front toe in does help with steady state cornering, but actually, toe out at the rear is more effective. This is because "Ackerman toe", which is where the suspension geometry is designed so that toe out increases as steering lock increases, quickly elimiates any static toe in you may have set. The rears are of course fixed (or may in fact have a small amount of bump steer built in) and so the toe out remains effective.

Some people like to run massive toe out in the front because it makes the car twitchy and makes it wander, which they confuse with crisp turn-in. There is very little engineering reason, if any, to run toe out in front. In addition to this, most cars toe out dynamically under acceleration, which means you have excess toe out when accelerating hard in a straight line, which creates drag. A little static toe in, on the other hand, means the wheels dynamically toe out to zero and are running true when the car accelerates in a straight line.

-2 degrees camber is quite visible to the naked eye, but believe me it really helps with the tire wear, despite the alignment guy's warning. The first set of tires wore off at the outside shoulder because they scrubbed so much, but the post-alignment tires are wearing very evenly. In fact, I don't have to rotate them now.

The alignment tech didn't believe I knew what I wanted, so the first time he racked the car, he set it to -0.2 degrees, thinking he was doing me a favor. When I saw the printout, I told him I meant 2 whole degrees, not 2 tenths of a degree, and he grumbled a bit but agreed to realign it. He drove the car then and was amazed at the difference.

Too much camber on a FWD car can indeed lead to wheelspin, but my 150-hp Neon doesn't usually suffer from it if I'm reasonably careful with the throttle. SRT's 215+ hp will have more trouble obviously, but I would think -1.5 to -2.0 would be good.

 

[SRT Rocket]

Hey miata13b, no need to act like I have hurt feelings. I don't wound easily. Don't let my exuberance, or the fact that that I am a bit of a wiseass, lead you into thinking I was ofended. I love to argue, and I love being the underdgog even more. I am actually enjoying this thread quite a bit. I am getting to share a newfound passion with other people and that is very fun for me. Earlier on I thought this thread was going to get, well, purile I guess for lack of a better word. However we are getting some good discussion and that is all I hoped for. Also your opinion on the toe out was interseting theory. I wasn't planning on running any toe in up front because, as neon-duke said, I don't like twitchy steering
Also thanks for the advice on the camber settings, neon but should I add some camber in the rear too? I was thinking like 1 degree less than in the front.

 

[miata13B]

Originally posted by neon_duke
Well, I agree in principle that you want a little toe in... but it's not required at all, and the negative camber will still reduce understeer. Adding grip at the front, which you are doing wtih the negative camber, cannot add understeer. Unless, as you say, you are talking about spinning the front tires on exit... in which case toe won't help you either, because you've broken the traction of the front wheels. If we are talking about a plain turn, taken fast but without spinning the tires, negative camber with zero toe will reduce understeer. I've got my wife's car set up with -2 degrees camber in front and zero toe, and it made a notable difference in the handling balance.

Front toe in does help with steady state cornering, but actually, toe out at the rear is more effective. This is because "Ackerman toe", which is where the suspension geometry is designed so that toe out increases as steering lock increases, quickly elimiates any static toe in you may have set. The rears are of course fixed (or may in fact have a small amount of bump steer built in) and so the toe out remains effective.

Some people like to run massive toe out in the front because it makes the car twitchy and makes it wander, which they confuse with crisp turn-in. There is very little engineering reason, if any, to run toe out in front. In addition to this, most cars toe out dynamically under acceleration, which means you have excess toe out when accelerating hard in a straight line, which creates drag. A little static toe in, on the other hand, means the wheels dynamically toe out to zero and are running true when the car accelerates in a straight line.

-2 degrees camber is quite visible to the naked eye, but believe me it really helps with the tire wear, despite the alignment guy's warning. The first set of tires wore off at the outside shoulder because they scrubbed so much, but the post-alignment tires are wearing very evenly. In fact, I don't have to rotate them now.

The alignment tech didn't believe I knew what I wanted, so the first time he racked the car, he set it to -0.2 degrees, thinking he was doing me a favor. When I saw the printout, I told him I meant 2 whole degrees, not 2 tenths of a degree, and he grumbled a bit but agreed to realign it. He drove the car then and was amazed at the difference.

Too much camber on a FWD car can indeed lead to wheelspin, but my 150-hp Neon doesn't usually suffer from it if I'm reasonably careful with the throttle. SRT's 215+ hp will have more trouble obviously, but I would think -1.5 to -2.0 would be good.

Ok then, I see where you are coming from here now. . . The problem I see lies here, With the fact that you are going to havea grippier turn, which it will with - 2.0 degrees camber and the positive toe on the rear, which will definately turn that car nicely, you turn in and outs will definately be a solid curve of acceleration, but after the apex of a turn, if any slight miscalculations have occured you will be going wide. Adding the negative toe to the front will produce a better turn in & out for racing use. For that last sections of a turn you want the car to grip into the turn heavily so you can accelerate out of the turn quickly. With a degree of negative toe you are letting the car go beyond the 33 degrees of turning it has, along with the rear toe being outward which will produce a tightier angle in the turn. If we put all of these settings together in a turn with a FWD car on a race track, I believe it will take a corner faster then any of the others adjustments we have talked about.

To get the car going the fastest around a turn, you need to barely break the edge of traction with a FWD car and use a point and shoot method. No car can out accelerate a FWD with the same power to weight ratio. coming out of the apex if you can get the car to rotate slightly more then the traction you have for a breif second, you will lose about half a mph in speed, but in the exit of the turn you will gain an extra mph or 2.

This brings me back to my statement of

Originally posted by miata13B
But, Camber alone will not fix any understeering.

To get the most out of a car, a single adjustment to the camber will not produce the fastest setup for a car to corner with. It may add more traction, but with traction you may suffer a loss elsewhere. With a full grip in a turn, that in theory is the fastest way to take it. But if you put that theory into a real-time test, you will see that it will not always come out on top. In essence you will have to take that turn wider with the grip.

Oh btw Neon, a little off topic, I do all the adjustments to my car, I don't allow others to mess with it Now working at VW, I have access to all their machines which makes it easier to get my car in to work on after hours

 

[Lt.Doomsday]

i don't own one,but if i had the cash and drove stick i buy one.
i prob get. that stage 1 kit that gives it 240hp and just leave it like that.maybe get some drag tires for it and take it to the track once in awhile

 

[TahirNuri]

Originally posted by SRT Rocket
that since a turbo compresses air to a set pressure pretty much regardless of the intake pressure I dont see much gain there. I will probably do it anyway just to say that I did and because since I am on a month long leave I get bored during the days (I have waxed my car like five times just for somthing to do when I'm not driving. I can't hardly look at the thing without bliding myself )
Thanks for the interest.

A turbo does not compress air to a set pressure, rather, the compression ratio depends on air temperature, elevation, and humidity as a set of variables which factor into how much boost it provides. Example: A turbo boosting 30PSI is only giving 15PSI to the engine due to atmospheric pressure. Intake pressure is actually a factor in that pressure affects heat according to the laws of science, and having colder air being compressed puts denser oxygen into your cylinders increases the overall HP gain. The only way a turbocharger compresses air to a set pressure is basically based on size, now if that's what you meant, then I've rambled all this time for nothing.

 

[SRT Rocket]

No, I pretty much suck at physics so any clarifcation is always welcome. I am always looking to learn new things about all things automotive

 

[SRT Rocket]

So I am crusing up and down one of the local strips at 1:00am looking to test the car at the stoplights. I'm not seeing anything except a few trucks when I see this pair of headlights pull up close behind me and then back off a bit. When I stop at the next intersection this porsche 944 pulls alongside in the other lane on my left. The driver guns his engine twice and it seems like a pretty obvious inventation to me so I respond in kind. At the green the 944 gets off the line quickest and I'm behind all through 1st. After I grab second the car gathers it up and we were even. By third I'm a car length ahead and doing about 76 but my radar detector picks up somthing on Ka band which always means a cop so I haul down to the speed limit. The 944 Waited untli he was two or three lengths ahead before slowing and then takes a quick right into a resedential area. Needless to say I was pretty pleased with myself

 

[bengee]

the question is what type of 944 was it... pre 85 or post 85... but good job lol

 

[SRT Rocket]

That I don't know(it was dark) and that bugs me a bit. Pre'85 they were turbo 4s right? And after they were V8s? (still feel damn good either way.)

 

[Duke]

Actually, the pre-85s were a N/A 4, and the post-85s were a turbo 4, I believe. But the 944 is a good car and your run was an accomplishment to be proud of.

In answer to your earlier question, you could add negative camber at the rear, too, which will increase your overall grip. It's a question of balance. The car is a little understeerish now, but you can provoke oversteer by a good lift when necessary. So if you don't think it's too tight (understeering), then add -1 degree in the back and -2 degrees in the front. This will add the same relative change in balance as -1 degree in front, but with slightly better overall grip. I wanted the ACR to hop right around on turn-in, so I'm running zero toe zero camber at the rear, and -2 degrees camber in front. I'm also running one series narrower tires on the rear: 195s compared to 205s on the front. This makes the car very well balanced when accelerating or steady-state cornering, but a fairly tailhappy when you lift or brake while turning. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that to others.

Toe is quite effective as Miata13B suggests, but I'm not sure I'd do it on a street car. Excessive toe is what really chews up tires, and while toe out in the rear will make the car rotate beautifully, it does make it twitchy on the straights. If you were going for an autocross competition aliginment, I agree with M13B - toe in at the front, toe out at the back. But for a street car I'd keep zero toe or minimal settings, like 0.25 to 0.5 degrees maximum.

 

[SRT Rocket]

Now that is some quality advice However I have even more questions. First off, This car will be my daily driver and I do like to do alot of spirited backroad driving but I will be putting some serious cross country highway miles on the car so unfortunately I won't be able to tune for pure track performance. Would you still recomend a little toe out in back? Also you mentioned elsewhere that 2 degrees of negative camber is noticable to the eye. Just how obvious is it? If it looks like it does on some of the drifter cars I see I think that that much camber would look a bit silly on a street car. What would you say if I went with 1 degree in front and none in the back? Would that even make a difference? Lastly I need help in choosing a proper wheel size. I want to put on some 225/45/17s on so how wide a wheel do I need and at which offset? I think the offset of the stock 17x6 wheels is 40mm. And would a 5mm difference in sidewall height alter my speedo readings? but I am not sure as it dosen't say in my service manual(lame).
Thank you so much for all your advice

 

[Duke]

I would keep toe at zero in back if I were you. The camber will not look silly at -2 degrees, just enough to be noticeable. When you see a car that somebody has "slammed" by just cutting a coil off the springs, and not readjusted for the radically decreased ride height, thay are often pushing -5 or -6 degrees of camber, which is enough to hurt performance.

225 series tires will fit on a stock 6" wheel but it is pushing it. The problem is that the sidewall has to flex in to reach the bead on the wheel, so it decreases the sidewall stiffness when you are cornering. I'd say go with 6.5" or 7" wide wheels, and you want to keep the same offset or nearly so.

What are the stock tires sizes? The "45" in 225/45/17 aren't mm like the 225 number is; it's the aspect ratio. 45% of the 225mm tread cross section width means that the sidewall is actually a little over 101mm tall.

The way you figure speedometer error is by calculating the overall circumference of each wheel/tire combo. That number wants to stay pretty close to stock. For the tires you're looking at it's like this:

17" x 25.4 = 432mm
432mm + (2 x 101mm sidewalls) = 634mm overall diameter of tire
3.1417 (pi) x 634mm (diameter) = 1992mm overall circumference

Run the same calculation for the stock tires and compare the outcome. The percentage difference between the two is the percentage difference in speedo error you will see.

My advice is to call the Tire Rack or visit their website at www.tirerack.com . They have a lot of knowledgeable people on the sales staff and they can tell you alot about recommended tire and wheel fitments. You can also preview wheels on your car on the website.