Starting the Pro League - car suggestions?

[spymaster]

If you drive a car with downforce & lower power, the races still feel competitive but the fun factor is higher. Good luck1!

A nice competitor car you can use, Bulldozer, is the R390 road car. It's got exactly the low power + downforce combo that Parnelli mentioned. It's a very stable car (stock form) that handles exceptionally well. Now that's a fair match (road version vs. road version).

You might want to upgrade the power a bit or go with T4 instead of the stock T5s though. When I did the race in the R390 stock form, the GT40 was literally pushing on my rear bumper when we crossed the finish line at the end of 10 laps, my tires in red. Tough win, but pretty satisfying!

If you go with the R390, remember to upshift at 6000rpm so you always work around the max hp point of 5500rpm.

 

[Duke]

For the Pro MR, I used a Zonda Z12S with race suspension, sport brakes with proportioning valve, race trans with LSD, and LW1. I was running 592hp on T3 tires.

Looks like I ran anywhere from 6.low" at Laguna and Apricot Hill to 43.high" at Midfield MOV over the GT40.

 

[Bulldozer]

Ruf 3400S - I have one of those and I like Rufs. Sounds like it would be a real challenge. Maybe too much for me right now, but I could give it a try.

R390 Road car - The name says "Road Car" but the body says "Race Car" That was just my misperception, though. I thought it was equal to the Toyota Gt-one. Now that I check on it, I see that the hp is much closer to the GT40. I would've overlooked this car.

And I'm just an intermediate driver, not a pro yet. So I'm not going to absolutely rule out all cars with downforce. (As Parnelli suggested.)

Zonda C12S - I don't have one of these, but I can afford to buy one. I'm curious to see how they handle. Another car with some downforce, but not overkill.

I was thinking that there weren't very many choices for this series, but now I've got a few good ideas. Thanks for all the suggestions.

And another high MOV at Midfield. Was it mainly because of driver error? I wonder if the programmers just didn't work as hard teaching the AI how to drive on this course.

 

[Orion]

The Nissan R390 Road Car can get modified, as well as the GT40, the GT40 can get 580HP and the Nissan R390 = I forgot but it wasn't slow, it can be as good as the Race Car if I remembered correctly, but slightly less downforce. The Ford GT40 doesn't have such good brakes and is a pretty fragile car, you can easily upset it's behavior in corners.

CNG

 

[Bulldozer]

Well, the first thing I tried was the Clio Sport V6 - the regular version, not the race car - at Trial Mountain. All I can say is ! But I kind of expected that.

Tried Trial mountain again with the Zonda C12S (659 hp and T2's) and won by about 10 seconds. Unfortunately, I bought the port polish and engine balance, so I can't try this Zonda with lower hp. Oh wait, I forgot about the I&E and the chip. I might have to try it again with those removed.

I ran Trial Mt a 3rd time with a 3400S at 631 hp. And got stomped by about 10 seconds.

I also tried the 3400S at Laguna and got stomped even worse. About 22 seconds.

I might also try the Esprit Sport 350. But I'll probably have to pile on the power and just fight to keep the thing pointed in the right direction.

It turns out I don't own an R390 Road Car. Maybe after I finish this MR series I'll try the GT World Championship and win one there.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Hey everyone what does MOV stand for?

Hey Bulldozer, are you qualifying for these races? If not, you should. That will at least put you in 2nd place and give you a better shot against the GT40. Also, I used a bump of the TCS when I drove that Ruf Porsche....I know....BLASPHEMY! Didn't use it when I drove the GT40, tho.

 

[Bulldozer]

MOV = Margin of Victory. I picked it up in one of Duke's threads.

You're right, I should qualify. Well, it wouldn't do any good if I'm losing by 20 seconds, but in close races I guess it would help.

I'm also using a little TCS in these cases. If a car has more than 500 hp, and especially if I'm having too much trouble getting back on the throttle out of curves, then I'll use 2 clicks of TCS. I like to think it makes the tires last longer too, but I haven't tested that, so it's probably only wishful thinking.

Edit to add: I just did two runs in the C12S (dropped to 602 hp) at Laguna Seca. First time around I qualified 2nd, but dropped to 4th on the first turn. By the time I worked my way back up to 2nd, I was 4 seconds behind the GT40. If I drove pretty well on a section, I could close on him a little bit, and if I screwed up, even in a minor way, I could see him pull further away. I was about 6 secs back on lap 6 when someone rang my doorbell. By the time I got back to the race, about 10 minutes later, I forgot what turn I was in and ran off the road. I didn't think I could recover form that so I exited the race and restarted.

Qualified again, had a good first lap on cold tires and got pole position! After qualifying I switched from T2's to T3's and shortened the gears. I kept first place through the whole race and actually gained about 2 seconds on every lap! Funny thing, the GT40 must've botched turn 1, because the 2nd place car was another Zonda. It took the GT40 four laps to regain second place.

I beat the GT40 by 35 seconds. That's almost too much. That and the fact that he was behind the Zonda for 4 laps makes me wonder if this was a weaker version of the GT40. But my avg lap was 1'22.958 and my best was 1'20.090, which is pretty good for me.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Yes, TCS does make tires last longer---well, the tires that push the car, anyways. This is truer of rear-drive cars than front-drive cars. 4-wheel drive cars with TCS will sometimes wind up with hot front tires but cold rear ones because the front tires are not just pulling, they are also still turning and doing most of the braking, too.

It kinda sucks that in so many races you're only competeing against one other car (like the GT40) instead of the entire field, but that's the way GT3 is sometimes; anyways, you will have better success against him if you qualify.

 

[Bulldozer]

And now I've finished off Midfield and the MR series and win the ZZII. (Is it always yellow? Probably, since it's single race and you can't win another.)

I went back to Midfield and tried out the Esprit Sport 350 (568 hp and LW3). First run wasn't good - I spun out on the first lap, got about 10 sec behind, and just couldn't seem to close on that 10 sec gap.

Second try and I qualified in first place. This time I had an MOV of 2.something seconds on the first lap and just kept walking away from the GT40. About two seconds each lap. Then on lap 6 I spun out BAD. The GT40 was about 3 secs ahead by the time I got turned around and back on the road. I almost caught up to him before the end of lap 8, but that's when I made my pit stop. I knew he'd pit on lap 14, but I was worried about whether I could get within 15 seconds of him before then.

I had a hard time. For laps 9-14 I was barely staying within 15 seconds of him. It worked out OK, I did pass him while he was in the pits and added a few more seconds in the last lap while his tires were still cold.

But here's a question: I've heard this theory before, that the AI's drive faster when they're in pole position. It seemed true in this case. When I was leading, and doing 1'13" laps, I was gaining about 2 seconds each lap. When I was in second, again doing 1'13" laps, I couldn't close the gap. So is it true? Are the AI faster when they're ahead? Or was it just a coincidence?

If its true, that's another great reason to qualify. If you start out in pole the AI will just drive slower for the whole race.

 

[Duke]

The 'rabbit effect' is even worse in GT4, unfortunately. However, GT4 doesn't have the GT3 'rubber band effect' that you're describing.

In GT3, the AI's speed is tied to yours by a rubber band - they may go faster than you do, but if they're beating you consistently, they slow down. On the flip side, if you're beating them consistently, then they speed up. I've seen the second-place AI magically gain 2 seconds a lap to bring it back in range of my car.

HOWEVER, it appears from my recollection that this rubber band can stretch and then snap. There are times when you're beating the AI, and they're fighting back, and then suddenly they just seem to give up. Your lead goes from 4 seconds to 10 seconds in short order, when they haven't pitted and shouldn't have been involved in an incident. There are times when you're slogging after an AI but losing a little ground, and suddenly he just moves out of your reach permanently. I assume this is because limited PS2 processing power means that PD had to limit the range at which the rubber band effect was calculated.

This, thankfully, was gotten rid of in GT4 - it makes tuning to meet the AI much easier, since they are not a moving target. Unfortunately as I said, the rabbit effect is even stronger.

 

[Bulldozer]

I can understand why programmers might use a 'rubber band effect'. I don't like it, but I can see some point to it. If a player has 2 or 3 bad laps at the beginning of a race, limiting the gap gives him a chance to recover. And if the player is ahead, he still feels a little pressure when the AI is sort of close behind, instead of _way_ behind. It's kind of an arcade race idea, but it makes a little sense.

"Rabbit Effect" on the other hand, I just don't get it. If I'm behind but running clean, consistent, fast laps, I should catch up d:censored:t! What's the point, in terms of making a fun game, of giving the AI a boost when they're ahead? Or for that matter, of making them give up when they're behind?

Maybe GT4's B-spec mode gives some clues about how AI drivers 'think'. Maybe when the AI is behind they go into "On the edge" mode. But with fast cars or in certain situations this causes them to make mistakes (run off the road, sideswipe walls) and ultimately results in slower lap times. Conversely, when they're ahead they cruise and make fewer mistakes, run better laps. That could explain the rabbit effect.

Just a half-baked idea. In fact, pushing harder would usually give better lap times most of the time. So... I dunno.

 

[Duke]

Well, by 'rabbit effect' I just mean the tendency of GT's field lineup creator to put 4 reasonably-matched cars and 1 absolute dominator into many races.

 

[Bulldozer]

Well, by 'rabbit effect' I just mean the tendency of GT's field lineup creator to put 4 reasonably-matched cars and 1 absolute dominator into many races.

Oh. I got it now. Yeah, that is annoying.

So there isn't a name for the effect of the AI driving faster when they're in the lead? Does that match anyone else's experience? I could've just imagined it. Or maybe the GT40 just coincidentally had 5 great laps in a row while he was in the lead, and 5 really bad laps after I took the lead.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

I'd have to say that not all races in GT4 are that bad. I'm doing the '80s Japanese races, for instance, and so far I've had some tasty battles with the MR2, RX7, Supra, and even a Honda Today! Each race packed with lead-changes and fights for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place.

The key to getting this sort of race in GT4 is to make sure the "dominator" car sits midfield at the start of the race (in other words, make sure he's in 3rd, 4th, or 5th place with some medium-fast cars sitting on pole position and/or 2nd). Really in that race mentioned above, the MR2 is the dominator. If you start a race in which he's sitting in 1st, he will get ahead; so the key is to keep resetting the game till he's not in first. All this being said, I also have to say there are also some pretty sucky races in GT4 in which we have one car way overpowered (like the Cobra in the Classic Car race up against a Citroen 2CV and other such slugs).

Back on topic now: I would have to say the GT40 had 5 great laps and then 5 poor laps. Personally I don't remember much "rubberband" in some of GT3's tougher races--there were some in which the leader was in the lead, and kept on leading while I struggled. Never have I noticed the leader slowing down and being "nice" to me in other words; otherwise I would have never been inspired to write that "I just lost at Rome" thread.

GT2 was the worst for rubberband. In the Sunday Cup, if you enter a really slow car (like a kei car) and don't power it up, all the leaders will literally drive around High Speed Ring and Red Rock Speedway like they just took massive doses of Sominex.

 

[Orion]

In the Sunday Cup, if you enter a really slow car (like a kei car) and dont' power it up, all the leaders will literally drive around High Speed Ring and Red Rock Speedway like they just took massive doses of Sominex.

Or K0K4N3!!

I had the same expierience in GT3 with the AI, once you pass them, they drive badly. WTF?

I do notice that when I was using a stock Zonda C12S with gearbox and tires, the GT40 just left me in the dust, then started driving badly. So maybe it can just be that thier driving gets worse as the race progresses, best shown in GT4 with B-Spec. As the tires warm up, bob tries taking corners faster, so he might end up in the sand, grass, or wall.

One thing that got me pissed was when I previewed the race, there was no race car in the American Championship in ametuer league. Then guess what? The Chevrolet Corvette Race Car is there. A 600HP Race car, against my 238HP Alto Works. I can win with that car without the damn race car coming in for an unexpected visit.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Or K0K4N3!!


One thing that got me pissed was when I previewed the race, there was no race car in the American Championship in ametuer league. Then guess what? The Chevrolet Corvette Race Car is there. A 600HP Race car, against my 238HP Alto Works. I can win with that car without the damn race car coming in for an unexpected visit.

yeah, that is really annoying. You gotta watch for the Corvette C5R; reset your game if it shows up. It doesn't belong there at all. 👎

I think sometimes (like in the GT3 British Car races--Pro league) the leader, a Lotus Elise, drives well, gets over-confident, then screws up. This happens in other events, too. Remember that in Gran turismo, the Ai cars are not full robots on a set schedule, they are actually, "driving" just like we are, which means they can screw up. Each ai car is programmed with a set of commands but it's not like they are driving on rails (well, sometimes it seems like it). Rather, they drive within a certain guideline and usually dont' wanna take mad risks; hence we have cars which will take an out-in-out cornering schedule most of the time, even if it means smacking a wall.

...alrite enough matchbook philosophy! I'm not making any sense.

 

[KAMKA-Z]

I think especially in the GT3 rallies the AI seems to "wait up" for you. I was running a near stock A4 at Tahitti recently and the AI always seemed just out of reach. When I first started doing the rallies, it seemed the AI stepped it up to meet me everytime I made significant tuning changes.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

That's odd. I noticed that most of the official rally cars in GT3 have the exact same power and weight (@2,711 pounds); even most of the power upgrades are similar, which makes me think PD is following some sort of official rallying qualifications. In the first race (of 3) I can run a Focus or Lancer rally car stock, add a stage 1 turbo for the 2nd race and a stage 2 for the 3rd. Very predictable in that manner.💡

 

[Orion]

I think especially in the GT3 rallies the AI seems to "wait up" for you. I was running a near stock A4 at Tahitti recently and the AI always seemed just out of reach. When I first started doing the rallies, it seemed the AI stepped it up to meet me everytime I made significant tuning changes.

You have an A4 in GT3? How?

 

[Parnelli Bone]

You have an A4 in GT3? How?

He musta meant an S4!

 

[KAMKA-Z]

Yeah, I meant S4. I see A4s on the road all the time and I don't recall if S4s actually made it to these shores. GT3's resale values actually match real life when it comes to the Audi.

That's odd. I noticed that most of the official rally cars in GT3 have the exact same power and weight (@2,711 pounds); even most of the power upgrades are similar, which makes me think PD is following some sort of official rallying qualifications. In the first race (of 3) i can run a Focus or Lancer rally car stock, add a stage 1 turbo for the 2nd race and a stage 2 for the 3rd. Very predictable in that manner.💡

Possibly they're using WRC Group N specs for minimum weight and venturi opening, since the rally cars are copies of those run by WRC Teams.

Using the stock S4 equipped with rally tires, I can beat the AI in Arcade mode but come up short in Simulation.

I felt when doing the Beginner Vitz and TT races that everytime I made an advance in tuning that the AI just got that much faster until I finally overpowered them. It was like a tease. I was pretty new to the GT series though and it may have been clouded perception.

 

[Parnelli Bone]

Yes there are S4s here in the states, perhaps not so many up where you are in Maine.