STUPID LAPPED CARS!!!!!!

[justin credible]

Actually sick off losing races because of stupid lapped cars when I am the fastest on track. Today on suzuka I was first and was dominating the race i was really happy with my performance. Perfect safety rating until I came up to about 3 lapped are what held me up for a few seconds each and all hit me and wouldn't let me past. So the guy in second ended up winning I was so angry because haven't won a sport race in a while since getting to SR S and DR A and racing against the top guys. I just don't get how I should be penalised for being the fastest on track by stupid people who don't understand blue flag. I think this really needs to be addressed maybe make the lapped cars ghost when passing. Doesn't matter what SR you are in I am in the top S and you still will get some idiot at the back. In my opinion if you are able to lap a car within 6 Laps of suzuka why are they getting matched up with you. Another example was when I was doing a 1hr nurburgring race with full damage I was 45 mins in winning and I was lapping someone and he hit me and the car was done, 45 minutes of my life wasted because some slow idiot if you are able to lap someone on the nurburgring 24h in 45 mins when each lap is 10 mins they shouldn't be playing the game in my opinion. Sorry for the rant pissed off about this hope some people share this opinion and want a fix by them ghosting or something thanks.

I know I will never get to that level I am just not good enough but I completely agree with you lapped cars should be ghosts or cars deliberately blocking or driving in to you should be down graded to a lower level. Why some spoil races for others I will never know.

 

[JulesDennis]

Stuff happens and that's the dangers of back markers which adds to the element of racing, they aren't always aware of you and initially to them you're just the car behind trying to grab their position, and it's worse if three back markers are racing each other because the onus is on you to overtake safely, you wasn't penalised for being the fastest you just wasn't able to negotiate around back markers properly whereas P2 probably was better at this than you. I'm just saying so dont get hurt.

I'm not the fastest driver but I know after being knocked of the track I'm consistently able to climb back from 17th or 16th position up into 5th or 4th place because of consistency, basically what I'm saying is some are better at overtaking and some are faster whereas there are few who are consistently good at both.

I agree with you mate.
The resposibility of a clean pass is always on the guy coming from behind.
In RL slower cars are advised to keep the race line and "if/when possible" let the fast guy pass them.The same goes in sim racing.You need to keep your race line and check where the "fast guy" is going in order to make it "easy" for him.You dont block him but you dont go off track just because of the blue flag.
Now if backmarkers are in a battle its a tricky situation.
Both the backmarkers and the lapping car have to use common sense and RESPECT each other.

 

[Blair mann]

Stuff happens and that's the dangers of back markers which adds to the element of racing, they aren't always aware of you and initially to them you're just the car behind trying to grab their position, and it's worse if three back markers are racing each other because the onus is on you to overtake safely, you wasn't penalised for being the fastest you just wasn't able to negotiate around back markers properly whereas P2 probably was better at this than you. I'm just saying so dont get hurt.

I'm not the fastest driver but I know after being knocked of the track I'm consistently able to climb back from 17th or 16th position up into 5th or 4th place because of consistency, basically what I'm saying is some are better at overtaking and some are faster whereas there are few who are consistently good at both.

Nothing to do with that mate, I should not have to battle with someone I am lapping that's how blue flag works they have to let you passed as soon as safety possible. The problem is they are trolls and don't let you passed and try hitting you and weaving all over the road. You obviously don't really understand proper fair sportsmanship Racing.

 

[ghostrider135]

I don't get the criticism of the physics c.f. other console games... sure, as in previous GT's, the low speed grip is not modeled correctly, but it's no more dumbed down than previous versions. And the the supposed epitome of console physics, AC, also has parts of it's engine that aren't right. I haven't played Pcars... maybe that is 'perfect'.

The physics hasn't stopped previous versions having a long life span.

But even PD have even gone as far as to include training wheels for noobs specifically, Also I don't completely agree about it being no more dumbed down, It's features like the ones you'll see posted below directly from the GT:Sport website that attracts all the casuals who generally will crash more often than not, If I'm going to get an opinion on sim physics I'll refer to @Scaff and trust his opinion.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/products/gtsport/
Assist Features High level driving assist features for anyone to enjoy
Gran Turismo Sport contains auto driving features that allow you to leave the brake and steering controls to the AI. Even those who are driving cars for the very first time can drive with confidence.
The high level driving assist aids in steering, throttle control, brakes, stability control and more. Each of these can be turned ON or OFF to match the skill level of the player

 

[Stotty]

But even PD have even gone as far as to include training wheels for noobs specifically, Also I don't completely agree about it being no more dumbed down, It's features like the ones you'll see posted below directly from the GT:Sport website that attracts all the casuals who generally will crash more often than not, If I'm going to get an opinion on sim physics I'll refer to @Scaff and trust his opinion.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/products/gtsport/
Assist Features High level driving assist features for anyone to enjoy
Gran Turismo Sport contains auto driving features that allow you to leave the brake and steering controls to the AI. Even those who are driving cars for the very first time can drive with confidence.
The high level driving assist aids in steering, throttle control, brakes, stability control and more. Each of these can be turned ON or OFF to match the skill level of the player

I haven't tried any of the aids other than ABS, TC and CSA, so can't comment on their effectiveness... but I wouldn't expect they make you faster. And if they don't make you faster, why would you have an issue with them being there.

GT has never been a niche title. It's one of the biggest games on the platform and needs to be accessible to all skill levels. If we take looking down on people and calling them noobs because they aren't fast a few stages further, we get to the point where someone like shooter or dan holland can look down on the entire playing universe and call them noobs.

Why would you refer to @Scaff for an opinion... can't you form your own?

 

[Scaff]

I don't get the criticism of the physics c.f. other console games... sure, as in previous GT's, the low speed grip is not modeled correctly, but it's no more dumbed down than previous versions. And the the supposed epitome of console physics, AC, also has parts of it's engine that aren't right. I haven't played Pcars... maybe that is 'perfect'.

The physics hasn't stopped previous versions having a long life span.

Quite agree. No title is perfect, and every single one will have its issues.

They differ in the degree of fidelity they offer, and its then up to the player to pick which one matches the preferences they have.

I have far more of an issue with some of the marketing around this area, and I hold GT as a series to greatest task for this. The Real Driving Simulator is a tag line you could get away with on console 15 odd years ago, but right now its an absurd claim to be making for its current level of fidelity.

However I ave far more ire for those who then take this to a toxic degree of my things better than you thing so you can't be right.

As an example having tried GTS a lot over the last year or so (from Copper box, through beta, to demo to final product), the fidelity balance they have hit on in regard to physics just doesn't do it for me. That doesn't mean that GTS is a poor title, it just means its not for me. It is however for quite a lot of people and I'm 100% cool with that.

However a number of people (and while it does happen with all titles, in my experience the GT series does seem to have far more than its fair share) simply can't accept that and unless GTS (or any other GT title) is unanimous declared the finest sim every they get 'bizarre'.

That for me is far more of an issue around GT as a series than anything I find as an issue in the physics.

I even made a video about it (warning I use rude words)



I mean it would be patently absurd of me to dismiss GTS for any of these issues given that I love Driveclub, and that objectively has a more basic physics engine than GTS (awaits people throwing a tantrum because I mentioned GTS and DC in the same breath).

Which leads me to.....

But even PD have even gone as far as to include training wheels for noobs specifically, Also I don't completely agree about it being no more dumbed down, It's features like the ones you'll see posted below directly from the GT:Sport website that attracts all the casuals who generally will crash more often than not, If I'm going to get an opinion on sim physics I'll refer to @Scaff and trust his opinion.

http://www.gran-turismo.com/gb/products/gtsport/
Assist Features High level driving assist features for anyone to enjoy
Gran Turismo Sport contains auto driving features that allow you to leave the brake and steering controls to the AI. Even those who are driving cars for the very first time can drive with confidence.
The high level driving assist aids in steering, throttle control, brakes, stability control and more. Each of these can be turned ON or OFF to match the skill level of the player

Those training wheels you mention are ones that exist in reality and are used in reality, and not just on the road.

GT4, GT3 and LMP1 cars all run with either TC and/or ABS systems, and the real world drivers use them.

Senna drove a number of seasons in an F1 car that was laden with driver aids, was he a casual F1 driver?

All of these tools have a place and some of them should make you faster, after all no LMP1 driver would bother with TC if it wasn;t faster overall, as they want to win races.

For my part when I test any car, in any title I run with the aids set to authentic (which is easier in some titles than others), as unless I do I know i'm not going to get a good comparison to the real world car.

I don;t have an issue with GTS having these aids anymore than I do with PC2 or AC having them, nor do I have an issue with people using them. I've used them in GTS and I've won sports races doing so. I make no bones about that.

The issue I actually have with the driver aids it GTS is that they are not particularly good models of the real world ones.

 

[ghostrider135]

Snip
Those training wheels you mention are ones that exist in reality and are used in reality, and not just on the road.

GT4, GT3 and LMP1 cars all run with either TC and/or ABS systems, and the real world drivers use them.

Senna drove a number of seasons in an F1 car that was laden with driver aids, was he a casual F1 driver?

All of these tools have a place and some of them should make you faster, after all no LMP1 driver would bother with TC if it wasn;t faster overall, as they want to win races.

For my part when I test any car, in any title I run with the aids set to authentic (which is easier in some titles than others), as unless I do I know i'm not going to get a good comparison to the real world car.

I don;t have an issue with GTS having these aids anymore than I do with PC2 or AC having them, nor do I have an issue with people using them. I've used them in GTS and I've won sports races doing so. I make no bones about that.

The issue I actually have with the driver aids it GTS is that they are not particularly good models of the real world ones.

My issue is the fact that there are aids in the game that simply don't exist in reality/definitely not in a racing environment and they are going to entice players that have less skill etc which confounds the problem of the rating system that can easily be gamed.

Also the topic of the late great Senna at that point things like traction control would have been in their infancy I believe, Granted if the rules allow and aids make a driver "faster" sure allow them but simply allowing a driver to be faster the aids are filling skill gaps in actuality.

Does auto/ai steering and braking really make it a sim? at what point does a player cease to actually play the game with all these aids in place? It's dumbed down for the lowest common denominator and that in and of itself means any rating system really needs to be better for the task at hand, I wonder just how many of the collisions we have seen in GT:Sport are actually caused by casuals who rely too heavily on the aids that don't work properly.

 

[JulesDennis]

My issue is the fact that there are aids in the game that simply don't exist in reality/definitely not in a racing environment and they are going to entice players that have less skill etc which confounds the problem of the rating system that can easily be gamed.

Also the topic of the late great Senna at that point things like traction control would have been in their infancy I believe, Granted if the rules allow and aids make a driver "faster" sure allow them but simply allowing a driver to be faster the aids are filling skill gaps in actuality.

Does auto/ai steering and braking really make it a sim? at what point does a player cease to actually play the game with all these aids in place? It's dumbed down for the lowest common denominator and that in and of itself means any rating system really needs to be better for the task at hand, I wonder just how many of the collisions we have seen in GT:Sport are actually caused by casuals who rely too heavily on the aids that don't work properly.

There are many things that someone can point out in an efford to prove "if its a proper sim or not".And there are some things that cannot be turned off even if you want to.For example the "hidden hand of god" when you use a pad,something a lot of people have talked about here.
As far as collisions go,in my experience most of the (if not all) are caused by bad driving and really dirty moves.Some may be "casual" drivers that make honest mistakes but many of those are intentional moves to hit you/put you off track.I am pretty sure that is not because of "aids not working properly".

 

[Sick Cylinder]

The game needs to show blue flags to back markers so that they can let the fast guys through safely. Not everyone can be fast - not everyone has the talent or the time to practise. Slow drivers can enjoy racing games, but they need blue flags to help them and they should behave properly and respect that some people are much faster.

GTS might be the kind of title where ghosting of back markers is appropriate - in real life there are cars of different speeds in different classes in endurance races, but the ability level of drivers is not so wide. All racers have to reach a certain level in real life to be on track.

This thread reminds me of Al Pease who in 1967 finished a Grand Prix 43 laps behind the leader and in 1969 became the only F1 driver to be disqualified during a race for being too slow - he had been responsible for several safety incidents and was running 22 laps down!

 

[azrilnazli]

The blue markers don't know they are being lapped, especially who use hood cam.

 

[Deadheadbill]

The blue markers don't know they are being lapped, especially who use hood cam.

Yeah, one of the reasons I quit using hood cam unless it one of the few cars that you absolutely can't see **** from the cockpit view.

 

[Stotty]

Quite agree. No title is perfect, and every single one will have its issues.

They differ in the degree of fidelity they offer, and its then up to the player to pick which one matches the preferences they have.

I have far more of an issue with some of the marketing around this area, and I hold GT as a series to greatest task for this. The Real Driving Simulator is a tag line you could get away with on console 15 odd years ago, but right now its an absurd claim to be making for its current level of fidelity.

However I ave far more ire for those who then take this to a toxic degree of my things better than you thing so you can't be right.

As an example having tried GTS a lot over the last year or so (from Copper box, through beta, to demo to final product), the fidelity balance they have hit on in regard to physics just doesn't do it for me. That doesn't mean that GTS is a poor title, it just means its not for me. It is however for quite a lot of people and I'm 100% cool with that.

However a number of people (and while it does happen with all titles, in my experience the GT series does seem to have far more than its fair share) simply can't accept that and unless GTS (or any other GT title) is unanimous declared the finest sim every they get 'bizarre'.

That for me is far more of an issue around GT as a series than anything I find as an issue in the physics.

I even made a video about it (warning I use rude words)

Great post, Scaff 👍

I would never describe myself as a ‘deluded fantasist’ when it comes to GT. It set the standard back in its early incarnations, but then there was very few of its type back then. And the ‘real driving simulator’ is similar to BMW’s ‘ultimate driving machine’… it’s a brand statement that no longer holds water as the competition have at least caught up for the most part.

Alongside the GT ‘deluded fantasists’ are the antis (or deluded fantasists of their own preferred titles)… those that think their personal favourite, be that AC or PC, is perfect (I’ll only mention console titles as I haven’t any experience of PC games since Geoff Crammond's F1GP), and take pleasure in dismissing GT (and by inference, its supporters) as an ‘arcade title for noobs’.

Any defence I put up for GT is aimed at these people (and those who whine about the game due to their own incompetence). For me, calling AC or Pcars a sim whilst dismissing GT as arcade is far too black and white.

To me, it just demonstrates a lack of real life driving experience. We can all drive our road cars on public roads at 30-40-50-60+++ mph, pushing them in to occasional under or oversteer, or doing the occasional track day or driving experience. But this is nothing like driving a car at very high speed on a track, where, if you have the skill, and the car has the right balance, you can really make a car ‘dance’… using throttle, brakes, steering to move the weight around and adjust the balance/angle, with the car almost permanently sliding to some extent.

Personally, I’ve always liked the feel of GT physics – the cars have a lot more movement that you need to manage in a way that AC, for example, doesn’t. I just never got that feeling in AC unless I was driving some of the vintage cars (Porsche 718, for example, is wonderful in AC). So for me, AC cars just felt like they had no life to them. But it wasn’t enough to stop me playing the game, enjoying it enough to platinum!

Are any console titles 100% realistic? Of course not. Is one more realistic than the others? Each may have strengths in certain areas, each will have its faults, but overall, it’s just which one you prefer the feel of and get the most enjoyment out of.

 

[NJ72]

I wonder just how many of the collisions we have seen in GT:Sport are actually caused by casuals who rely too heavily on the aids that don't work properly.

I don't know, but I'd guess not very many in the driver classes that we're talking about. The issue is not the aids, the noobs or the casuals. It's the trolls who are out to ruin other people's races for their own enjoyment.

The only way you can 100% resolve the issue is to ghost back markers, but it comes with compromises

 

[vcx]

In the profile mission you will see an award that finish 15 races consecutively without any collision or touch walls.

That means finish 15 clean races consecutively so to get this award the best way is racing at last position and drive slowly thats why people are driving so slow and lapping. Pass them thats all, both sides show respect each other. They are also trying to achieve this award if you touch or hit them they have to start from the begining.

 

[NJ72]

They are also trying to achieve this award if you touch or hit them they have to start from the begining.

If they're ramming people, then you're evidently very wrong...

 

[vcx]

I said both sides have to show respect each other.

 

[demeaning pie]

The blue markers don't know they are being lapped, especially who use hood cam.

While I've never been lapped, you can look behind you. If you are putting around in 15th place and see the 1st place car is coming up behind you it's not difficult to figure out you're being lapped.

The thing I don't understand with the OP is how you can be at least 20+ seconds a lap faster and not easily find a way around lapped traffic? I can get the OP losing the race if the 2nd place driver was a second or so behind, but 2nd place has to deal with the lappers as well.

 

[Blair mann]

While I've never been lapped, you can look behind you. If you are putting around in 15th place and see the 1st place car is coming up behind you it's not difficult to figure out you're being lapped.

The thing I don't understand with the OP is how you can be at least 20+ seconds a lap faster and not easily find a way around lapped traffic? I can get the OP losing the race if the 2nd place driver was a second or so behind, but 2nd place has to deal with the lappers as well.

Because on suzuka their is no where to overtake and they deliberately move side to side and ram you so you can't get past. And when they hit me of the track they usually take themselves out so second place just cruises through. Its nothing to do with skill if their is a car in front of you not letting you past then it's just not fair.

 

[PzR Slim]

If you're driver rating A, you should be able to pass them without contact. Just have some patience.

That's great in theory but when you have been constantly flashing a driver you are coming up to lap for the past 30 seconds and they run wide at a hairpin leaving the inside line completely open but then cut straight back onto the racing line with no concern for you being there, making contact with your rear end and causing you to spin there's not much an A rating or patience can do to help in that situation.

 

[Blair mann]

That's great in theory but when you have been constantly flashing a driver you are coming up to lap for the past 30 seconds and they run wide at a hairpin leaving the inside line completely open but then cut straight back onto the racing line with no concern for you being there, making contact with your rear end and causing you to spin there's not much an A rating or patience can do to help in that situation.

Rating doesn't matter anyway I am DR A and SR S so the safest SR and you still get slow idiots at the back.

 

[demeaning pie]

Because on suzuka their is no where to overtake and they deliberately move side to side and ram you so you can't get past. And when they hit me of the track they usually take themselves out so second place just cruises through. Its nothing to do with skill if their is a car in front of you not letting you past then it's just not fair.

There are plenty of places to overtake slower drivers at Suzuka.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest with you, I just don't see the same problem you do.

 

[Ashthebash]

Well the daily gr3 today is a minefield for these lapped cars. Two races, twice running in top three, twice taken out by lapped cars. Deliberate side swipe as I lapped one (putting him two laps behind) and another just hitting me full speed up the back into the first corner. SR and DR has taken a beating, difficult to recover from being spun on an oval with three laps left

 

[JulesDennis]

I can understand the frustration of anyone who gets "taken" out from another driver that seems to be (or is) "slower".
Being a lap down btw is not always because that said driver is "slow".He could be a victim of one or two others that got a huge penalty,got angry and is staying dehind to retaliate.
But either way,one problem with the rating system is that you can gain (either DR or SR) fast by doing 4 lap races or 2 laps around Green Hell -example-.
My point is that I've raced against many people,who could do a super fast HL compared to what I could do but are not consistent during a race or even keep/have that HL pace in a race.Also many people dont know do to negotiate traffic especially when they have a "slower" car in front of them (getting lapped or not) or being the lapped car.Since we only get to do sort races its "easy" for people to boost their SR/DR -I can understand the logic behind those "sort races"-.
So we end up in a lobby with people that have different experience/talent even though their SR is the same and their lap times close enough.That is the formula that creates all these problems.
For example:I am not fast but I have a experience and I am as clean as you can be -imo-.When a faster driver try to pass me using the outside line,I expect him to stay there -until he pass me- and give me room.The same I do too:I keep the inside line and give him the space he needs to either pass or keep his car on the track.I will not go to "his" part of the track unless I am in front of him.
People simply dont do that in GTS (keeping the correct lines).Most of the times its either because they dont have the "experience" or they just think they "have the right" to change lanes because they are 1 wheel in front of the other guy. Many "fast" drivers (not just in GTS,but in other titles too)think that because they are faster,the slower guys need to "stop" and let them pass the moment they get behind their gearbox.Many slower drivers think that they have to right to "fight" against said faster drivers because they are in the same "level".
So all these problems are the resualt of how the rating system works and because of how many people think they have a "right" to race.A fellow member posted here in another post "Just because you think you are clean,that does not mean you actually are".And this is true.

 

[Ashthebash]

I can understand the frustration of anyone who gets "taken" out from another driver that seems to be (or is) "slower".
Being a lap down btw is not always because that said driver is "slow".He could be a victim of one or two others that got a huge penalty,got angry and is staying dehind to retaliate.
But either way,one problem with the rating system is that you can gain (either DR or SR) fast by doing 4 lap races or 2 laps around Green Hell -example-.
My point is that I've raced against many people,who could do a super fast HL compared to what I could do but are not consistent during a race or even keep/have that HL pace in a race.Also many people dont know do to negotiate traffic especially when they have a "slower" car in front of them (getting lapped or not) or being the lapped car.Since we only get to do sort races its "easy" for people to boost their SR/DR -I can understand the logic behind those "sort races"-.
So we end up in a lobby with people that have different experience/talent even though their SR is the same and their lap times close enough.That is the formula that creates all these problems.
For example:I am not fast but I have a experience and I am as clean as you can be -imo-.When a faster driver try to pass me using the outside line,I expect him to stay there -until he pass me- and give me room.The same I do too:I keep the inside line and give him the space he needs to either pass or keep his car on the track.I will not go to "his" part of the track unless I am in front of him.
People simply dont do that in GTS (keeping the correct lines).Most of the times its either because they dont have the "experience" or they just think they "have the right" to change lanes because they are 1 wheel in front of the other guy. Many "fast" drivers (not just in GTS,but in other titles too)think that because they are faster,the slower guys need to "stop" and let them pass the moment they get behind their gearbox.Many slower drivers think that they have to right to "fight" against said faster drivers because they are in the same "level".
So all these problems are the resualt of how the rating system works and because of how many people think they have a "right" to race.A fellow member posted here in another post "Just because you think you are clean,that does not mean you actually are".And this is true.

You are right of course, and judging by your post I'd love to lap people like you! But when you're lapping someone, overtaking them on a straight, pulling right over to the inside and holding your line then halfway down the straight they turn into you... what are you supposed to do? You've held your line, you can't do it any cleaner or safer without the ability to rewind time.

Bigger penalties for cars a lap behind I say!

 

[marvinandroid]

Absolutely agree. Blue flagged cars should be ghosted as soon as possible. Had numerous races ruined by idiotic lapped guys who had their fun ramming me out of the track.

 

[Lord Protector]

I think if you get lapped you need to be permanently ghosted until end of race. That way you can’t tank and screw the race up

either this or applying blue flag would be great

 

[JulesDennis]

You are right of course, and judging by your post I'd love to lap people like you! But when you're lapping someone, overtaking them on a straight, pulling right over to the inside and holding your line then halfway down the straight they turn into you... what are you supposed to do? You've held your line, you can't do it any cleaner or safer without the ability to rewind time.

Bigger penalties for cars a lap behind I say!

From my experience I found out that people that are getting lapped can be as dirty as people lapping others.I've been in both sides of the story.
Like I said,I am not even fast but since I've raced a lot against really fast guys in organized leaugue that does not "tolerate" dirty drivers at all (no matter their pace),I've gained enough experience to be able to race clean with faster or slower people.And since most of my races were 1-2 hours long(in real life not in game),I've gained consistency.
So imo experience,consistency,being confident and respect others are the key elements of a good driver and a good race at the end.
Many people in GTS online lobbies lack some or all of those.You cannot choose the people you race against.But you can choose if you are going to be clean or not.No matter how fast or slow you and those around you are.

 

[Blair mann]

either this or applying blue flag would be great

Is this the lord protector I had a amazing race with the other day lol?

 

[Lord Protector]

Is this the lord protector I had a amazing race with the other day lol?

yes sir

 

[demeaning pie]

So imo experience,consistency,being confident and respect others are the key elements of a good driver and a good race at the end.
Many people in GTS online lobbies lack some or all of those.You cannot choose the people you race against.But you can choose if you are going to be clean or not.No matter how fast or slow you and those around you are.

The funny thing is, the SR ratings are there to try and get people to race clean.

I go into every race hoping for a clean and fair race, but I never expect it. The race I had in G4 daily last night was epic. Traded places with the person in 1st three or four times, never once did we touch. I lost by .300 of a second but it was the most fun I've had racing since I bought the game. I'm the type of person that would still enjoy that battle for 15th place.

I think one of the main problems is you have people who are great at just hot lapping, and some who are great at racing wheel to wheel. A hot lapper who gets pole and checks out won't have any issues, but put them in the mix with two or three other racers and they don't know how to act. All they want to do is check out as quickly as possible and cannot read the situation and plan a pass. Rarely will I make a spontaneous pass on someone, I follow, see where I am strong or weak, and plan accordingly.

I also believe a problem is some people who use a DS4 instead of a wheel have a harder time holding a line, especially in decreasing radius corners.