Suspension Backwards?

[Motor City Hami]

Quite amused by this whole arguement, lol. Some say yes, some say no, I say I'm lost, lol. How is a beginner like me supposed to tune a friggin' car when nobody knows which end is up, lmao.

Since you are from the D, I may try to help you with your NASCAR road course tunes. Send me a PM with the track and your current settings and tell me how the car is behaving. I'll try to give you some advice.

But, if I am able to help make you faster, I may ask you to stop being a Kyle Busch fan for one day?

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Since you are from the D, I may try to help you with your NASCAR road course tunes. Send me a PM with the track and your current settings and tell me how the car is behaving. I'll try to give you some advice.

But, if I am able to help make you faster, I may ask you to stop being a Kyle Busch fan for one day?

LOL, ok. Appreciate the help. On a side note tho, you tried that Kyle Bush thing with me before and it didn't work, lol. Thats ok tho, I got back-ups, lol. Carl Edwards, Tony Stewart, and if I have too, I'll bring Rusty Wallace out of retirement, lol. Anyways, I'll pm you with what I have so far. Thanks Hami.

 

[Motor City Hami]

LOL, ok. Appreciate the help. On a side note tho, you tried that Kyle Bush thing with me before and it didn't work, lol. Thats ok tho, I got back-ups, lol. Carl Edwards, Tony Stewart, and if I have too, I'll bring Rusty Wallace out of retirement, lol. Anyways, I'll pm you with what I have so far. Thanks Hami.

Last Sunday would have been a good day to not be a Kyle Busch fan. Just sayin'!

 

[XDesperado67]

Quite amused by this whole arguement, lol. Some say yes, some say no, I say I'm lost, lol. How is a beginner like me supposed to tune a friggin' car when nobody knows which end is up, lmao.

Like I said way back at the beggining of this thread...ignore the whole argument and just use the tuning options provided in the game to make your cars handle and drive the best for you. If you focus on the fact that this is a game and just use what's here in the game without regard to how you think it should be in the real world you'll do just fine. The whole argument in my opinion is really about whether the settings are correct in regards to what people think they should be in the real world, and not so much that there is some sort of error in the game where if you push button A you get button B's result and vice versa.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Last Sunday would have been a good day to not be a Kyle Busch fan. Just sayin'!

Yea, I was not amused by his actions. Don't ask me why, but I still have hope in the kid. His time is running out tho.

 

[XDesperado67]

Smoke gets his third championship this year.

Guess owning your own team is a good thing.

 

[Johnnypenso]

His lack of response is surely proof that the settings are correct. 👍

This lack of response is proof he's correct? In a recent interview he was asked what he would have changed about the game had he been able to do it again.

Answer: More A-Spec.

Yup, he's really in touch with what's going on with this game...lol.

 

[Highlandor]

His lack of response is surely proof that the settings are correct. 👍

No offence Hami, but this isn't the case.

Why I say this, not to antagonise you but because of the official Polyphony / GT5 tuning manual (I haven't seen it, but have been in many lobbys where people who have it have read it and quoted it to me), tells people to do the opposite of what works in the game (for ride height) to deal with understeer / oversteer.

This has been going on for the past 8 months aswell - why on earth would Kaz let this crazy situation happen and continue..??

I got alot of respect for the info you've posted Hami, and I've publically and privately acknowledged this to you, so I'm not "having a go at you", just stating a fact / opinion.

 

[CSLACR]

My suggestion to anyone wondering "what to do?" is simply go out and move each setting independently to get the exact feel for what each does.
Try different things like shocks ext at 4/8 and then try it again at 8/4, see how the shocks ext changes the rotation under rearward weight transfer, (acceleration) etc. And the shocks compression for braking, very nice tools.


According to the in-game manual and what actually happens, the entire left side of the suspension settings are backwards.

I know, them's fightin' words.

 

[dr_slump]

My suggestion to anyone wondering "what to do?" is simply go out and move each setting independently to get the exact feel for what each does.
Try different things like shocks ext at 4/8 and then try it again at 8/4, see how the shocks ext changes the rotation under rearward weight transfer, (acceleration) etc. And the shocks compression for braking, very nice tools.


According to the in-game manual and what actually happens, the entire left side of the suspension settings are backwards.

I know, them's fightin' words.

No

 

[Motor City Hami]

The only tru conclusion that I can make from the many, many discussions that have been had here on GT Planet around backward settings is this. "There is no consensus on the subject!" To me, this means that none of us really know what we are talking about. It's a game, not real life, so whatever you can make work to become faster... use it. Until someone leaks the actual programming, everything is just opinion and thoery.

For the beginner, find a garage that has tunes that seem to work for you and follow their thoery. Take your favorite car and try every tune currently posted for it and start following the garage that best fit your driving style.

 

[Highlandor]

The only tru conclusion that I can make from the many, many discussions that have been had here on GT Planet around backward settings is this. "There is no consensus on the subject!" To me, this means that none of us really know what we are talking about. It's a game, not real life, so whatever you can make work to become faster... use it. Until someone leaks the actual programming, everything is just opinion and thoery.

For the beginner, find a garage that has tunes that seem to work for you and follow their thoery. Take your favorite car and try every tune currently posted for it and start following the garage that best fit your driving style.

One of the problems is that different people are using different variables to define "backwards".

Some people use "backwards" as in comparing GT5 settings to real life.
Some people use "backwards" as in comparing GT5 settings to their own personal knowledge (which can differ greatly).
Some people use "backwards" as in comparing GT5 settings to the Official GT5 Tuing Guide.
Some people use "backwards" as in comparing GT5 settings to either previous GT's or what they've learnt on other driving "games".
Some people use "backwards" as in comparing ALL GT5 setup options (against something else), some people use "backwards" as in comparing SOME GT5 setup options (against something else).
etc etc

There's no continuity in the control variable GT5 settings are being compared against - which is why there's so much confusion and diversity of opinion.

Then take into account the internet and all the little internet warriors, trolls and just basic "idiots" who just wanna have their 2c's worth, increase their post tally or have totally over inflated ego's that won't make them see sense or reason - and well, you have what we've experienced here in GTP for the last however months.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

One of the problems is that different people are using different variables to define "backwards".

Some people use "backwards" as is comparing GT5 settings to real life.
Some people use "backwards" as is comparing GT5 settings to their own personal knowledge (which can differ greatly).
Some people use "backwards" as is comparing GT5 settings to the Official GT5 Tuing Guide.
Some people use "backwards" as is comparing GT5 settings to either previous GT's or what they've learnt on other driving "games".
etc etc

There's no continuity in the control variable GT5 settings are being compared against - which is why there's so much confusion and diversity of opinion.

Then take into account the internet and all the little internet warriors, trolls and just basic "idiots" who just wanna have their 2c's worth or increase their post tally - and well, you have what we've experineced here in GTP for the last however months.

Well said my friend, well said. Have a great day everyone, I'm off to do some more NASCAR testing.

 

[eclipsee]

Ride height behaviour in GT5 is backwards since day 1, that's a fact and not a theory, if some of you can't notice that, I wonder how on earth some of you selfcalled tuners can notice differences on dampers.
Dampers are so poorly made in GT5 that I can achieve the same time using 10/1, 1/10, 8/3, 4/7, ... n/n, no matter if they're the ones of the front or the ones of the back, they're only a placebo!.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

Wouldn't the effects of your height adjustments be relative to your suspension settings?

 

[Highlandor]

Ride height behaviour in GT5 is backwards since day 1, that's a fact and not a theory, if some of you can't notice that, I wonder how on earth some of you selfcalled tuners can notice differences on dampers.
Dampers are so poorly made in GT5 that I can achieve the same time using 10/1, 1/10, 8/3, 4/7, ... n/n, no matter if they're the ones of the front or the ones of the back, they're only a placebo!.

I think, well, I'll bet there is a difference between dampers that are hard and soft, and it can be 'felt' in terms of the grip and behaviour of the car, 100% definately.

Take a car that is on the limit of adhesion, then change the dampers to their optimum position, then max hard and then max soft - it'll be easy to feel the difference, especially on tracks like Spa.

 

[CyKosis1973]

they're only a placebo!.

ORLY??

{Cy}

 

[CSLACR]

Ride height behaviour in GT5 is backwards since day 1, that's a fact and not a theory, if some of you can't notice that, I wonder how on earth some of you selfcalled tuners can notice differences on dampers.
Dampers are so poorly made in GT5 that I can achieve the same time using 10/1, 1/10, 8/3, 4/7, ... n/n, no matter if they're the ones of the front or the ones of the back, they're only a placebo!.

Well, time wise I'm not sure.
But your first set (ext?) dictates handling while accelerating, and the second set for braking. If your car is neutral, but under-steers under braking and over-steers on throttle, something like 5/7 7/5 will sort that. Of course stiffening the front and/or softening the rear will still be what gives oversteer, and vice versa. 5/7 = Some under-steer on throttle (rear ward weight transfer) 7/5 increases rotation when braking (forward weight transfer).

More of a driver preference tool, imo. As far as total lap times I guess you can answer that better then any of us here.

 

[eclipsee]

The next seasonal TT I'll propose a challenge for tuners.

 

[Morphisor]

I have had the matter of supposed reversed suspension settings going through my mind for a while now, but so far have had no project cars to easily test this.
However, I have been working on a Subaru 360 lately (yes, that tiny phonebooth).
This car has a very serious tendency of losing the back end uncontrollably, and so is ideal to test the effectiveness of suspension settings.

Mind you, I have upgraded it all the way with every possible mod (I mean come on, otherwise it would never get to the next corner before dinner). Testing and tuning was done for comfort soft tires.

I always use the GT5 calculator for the base setup and go from there.

Suspension setup used for testing:

height -15 -15 camber 0 0.5
springs 2.9 4.7 toe 0 0.40
extension 1 2
compression 1 2
anti-roll bars 4 4

This, at least, were the spring settings given to me by the calculator. The height, anti-roll bars, toe and camber are guesstimated for their effectiveness.
The goal was to make the drifting notion much more controllable.

At first, I stuck with these settings, drove a few laps. Then, I reversed the spring settings and their corresponding damper settings. The result was improved handling!

This however, is the result one would expect in reality, for as Scaff's tuning guide teaches us, stiffening the front springs and softening the rear springs should reduce tendency to oversteer.
This would indicate spring settings are NOT reversed!

But then.

Because I was still not satisfied with the handling, I figured I could still adjust the ride height to keep the weight balance a bit more towards the front during cornering - reducing oversteer further.
Now anyone could tell you, this is done by making the front lower than the rear. So, I did. I changed the ride height to -15 front and -10 rear. No other adjustments.
Here's the kicker: this actually worsened the oversteer!

So then of course I decided to reverse this change, to -10 front and -15 rear ride height. And behold, it worked, oversteer was significantly more manageable!
This would indicate that ride height adjustment effects ARE reversed!

Hope this helps to remove some doubts people are having.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I have had the matter of supposed reversed suspension settings going through my mind for a while now, but so far have had no project cars to easily test this.
However, I have been working on a Subaru 360 lately (yes, that tiny phonebooth).
This car has a very serious tendency of losing the back end uncontrollably, and so is ideal to test the effectiveness of suspension settings.

Mind you, I have upgraded it all the way with every possible mod (I mean come on, otherwise it would never get to the next corner before dinner). Testing and tuning was done for comfort soft tires.

I always use the GT5 calculator for the base setup and go from there.

Suspension setup used for testing:

height -15 -15 camber 0 0.5
springs 2.9 4.7 toe 0 0.40
extension 1 2
compression 1 2
anti-roll bars 4 4

This, at least, were the spring settings given to me by the calculator. The height, anti-roll bars, toe and camber are guesstimated for their effectiveness.
The goal was to make the drifting notion much more controllable.

At first, I stuck with these settings, drove a few laps. Then, I reversed the spring settings and their corresponding damper settings. The result was improved handling!

This however, is the result one would expect in reality, for as Scaff's tuning guide teaches us, stiffening the front springs and softening the rear springs should reduce tendency to oversteer.
This would indicate spring settings are NOT reversed!

But then.

Because I was still not satisfied with the handling, I figured I could still adjust the ride height to keep the weight balance a bit more towards the front during cornering - reducing oversteer further.
Now anyone could tell you, this is done by making the front lower than the rear. So, I did. I changed the ride height to -15 front and -10 rear. No other adjustments.
Here's the kicker: this actually worsened the oversteer!

So then of course I decided to reverse this change, to -10 front and -15 rear ride height. And behold, it worked, oversteer was significantly more manageable!
This would indicate that ride height adjustment effects ARE reversed!

Hope this helps to remove some doubts people are having.

I find it interesting that you made no mention of adding the LSD and tuning it.

 

[saidaouita]

Sticking to the "kiss" theory...I find a handful of different tunes. Try them all. Since I do the majority of my racing at Nurburgring, I go by how the car feels on that track, which is quite bumpy compared to other tracks.

My theory, you go fastest when you can keep your car on the pavement. Find what feels best.

 

[Exorcet]

My theory, you go fastest when you can keep your car on the pavement. Find what feels best.

I'd think this is why the question on suspension was asked in the first place. People want to go faster. It would then help to know what makes the car go faster. You could try all the 200*30*10*10*7*2 or so suspension combinations, or you could try to develop theory and discover how the suspension works. The obvious theory for a simulator is that the suspension works more or less like real suspension. Proving or disproving that would be very important.

You're not really making some big revelation by saying "tune the car to work", that's what everyone has been trying to do all along.

Just saying.

 

[Morphisor]

I find it interesting that you made no mention of adding the LSD and tuning it.

Eh, do you realize that thing has 58 horsepower at best?

The only LSD that's ever gonna do any good with that car is the recreational variety.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Eh, do you realize that thing has 58 horsepower at best?

The only LSD that's ever gonna do any good with that car is the recreational variety.

Yes, but you also described a car that would kick out on exit. Add the LSD and try a setting like 10/10/5. Keep increasing the initial torque until the car settles down on exit.

 

[Morphisor]

Yes, but you also described a car that would kick out on exit. Add the LSD and try a setting like 10/10/5. Keep increasing the initial torque until the car settles down on exit.

Sorry, but I never said it was on exit.

The only oversteer that an LSD will help is power-oversteer, and trust me, that is not the case

 

[Nismo34]

...This however, is the result one would expect in reality, for as Scaff's tuning guide teaches us, stiffening the front springs and softening the rear springs should reduce tendency to oversteer.
This would indicate spring settings are NOT reversed!

But then.

Because I was still not satisfied with the handling, I figured I could still adjust the ride height to keep the weight balance a bit more towards the front during cornering - reducing oversteer further.
Now anyone could tell you, this is done by making the front lower than the rear. So, I did. I changed the ride height to -15 front and -10 rear. No other adjustments.
Here's the kicker: this actually worsened the oversteer!

So then of course I decided to reverse this change, to -10 front and -15 rear ride height. And behold, it worked, oversteer was significantly more manageable!
This would indicate that ride height adjustment effects ARE reversed!

Hope this helps to remove some doubts people are having.

Hang on, IRL, if you have the front LOWER than the rear, you increase oversteer, if you have the front HIGHER than the rear, you decrease oversteer. Now in your "test", you had the front lower than the back and claimed more oversteer, you then raised the front so it was higher than the rear and oversteer was more managable, meaning there wasnt as much, right? So, now correct me if Im wrong, but to me, that would imply the settings are not infact reversed at all .

 

[Motor City Hami]

Sorry, but I never said it was on exit.

The only oversteer that an LSD will help is power-oversteer, and trust me, that is not the case

The LSD effects way more than that. It can effect braking zone, turn in, mid corner and exit. I brought it up in this thread (and not really just directing this at you) because I firmly believe that the "backwards" feel that people describe is really them having to tune around the effects of the LSD. In spec 2.0, it continues to have super powers as compared to the other tuning tool. Just encouring people to try solving more issues with the LSD first, then all the other settings seem to work as described in the game. That's all.

 

[Morphisor]

Hang on, IRL, if you have the front LOWER than the rear, you increase oversteer, if you have the front HIGHER than the rear, you decrease oversteer. Now in your "test", you had the front lower than the back and claimed more oversteer, you then raised the front so it was higher than the rear and oversteer was more managable, meaning there wasnt as much, right? So, now correct me if Im wrong, but to me, that would imply the settings are not infact reversed at all .

eh, you had me confused for a bit there.

I had initially already lowered the car to -15 -15. The spring rates I have are already VERY rigid for a car this small and light.
By making the front end a bit lower than the rear end I would normally introduce a bit more oversteer, correct, but only if not compensated for with spring rates and anti-roll bars.
Further, because the car has a weight balance towards the rear, this would permanently shift more weight to the front wheels, which in such a light car should be a much greater effect on handling than the small height difference.

Notice that while the rear end is now lower than the front, the springs and dampers at the front are much more rigid....which is the opposite of how it should work. Yet this combination works the best.

 

[Highlandor]

Sorry, but I never said it was on exit.

The only oversteer that an LSD will help is power-oversteer, and trust me, that is not the case

LSD's are a great tool (and very important on some cars) to help get the transistion from releasing the brakes to turning into the apex "smooth" i.e. braking sensitivty to stop oversteer going IN.