suspension vs limited slip

quattro_bro

quattro_bro

703
I am relatively new to the game (2 months) and even newer to this forum. I have been reading many of your threads to try to learn the finer points of the game, and I must say that you all have been very helpful.

One thing I have noticed is that in terms of tuning/cornering, many of you seem to be concentrating on the suspension settings. While this certainly cannot be ignored, I have found much more success by adjusting the limited-slip differential settings.

Are you all playing with the limited-slip and not talking about it, or do you just use the suspension? :confused:

I know I have seen threads on getting different attitudes by playing with the suspension, but I have not been able to master this to the point of having the car handle "just right"--the way I can with the limited-slip. :shakehead

What say you???
 
Mmm - I really only tend to play with it on the big HP cars. It was of great benefit with the Zonda and the Escudo, and with my 1000hp+ R34 GT-R.

It's a bit of a black art, playing with diffs. I think it's not generally understood what they do, and sometimes the benefit can be pretty marginal.

Do you have a particular technique you use - I find I can invest a lot of time and not get a lot for my work.
 
On the surface, black art for sure. :ghost:

Once you know what the diffs do and how to use them, they can be the most beneficial mod next to non-sim tires! Far from marginal when done correctly. :smilewink

I agree, it is essential for use on say, the Zonda and the Escudo, but this is something that can be used all the way down to the 100 bhp'ers.

The technique I use is to start with a base setting (for all cars) and then modify it after a few test corners (based on the car and the track).

To best understand the limited-slip effect, start with a FR car. If you were to max out the accel and decel diff settings, you will be understeering like you've never seen--both in braking and acceleration. The wheels would not be able to turn at different speeds as is needed for cornering. On the other hand if you minimized the settings, you may well spin out while braking with the slightest turn of the wheel, and you will have to be extremely accurate to come out a corner and not spinout. The acceleration spinout would be much like driving a high powered FR car with 0 TCS. Obviously, a middle ground is needed. The settings I use as a FR starting point are:
Accel 0-20
Decel 0-10
They will typically end up around 0-18 and 0-8 by the time I am finished. This will vary depending on your driving style.

On to the initial torque setting. This regulates how quickly (during the accel or decel process) the limited-slip kicks in. You probably noticed that as you were tweeking the accel and decel settings that you were doing fine up to a certain point...and then the car just went straight. By lowering the initial torque setting, you are essentially delaying the limited slip effect. Again, I'll use the extremes to illustrate the point. By lowering (all the way) the initial torque, you are getting the maximum delay in the diff kicking in. In essence, it never does. On the other hand, by increasing the setting (depending on the car, 10-15 seems to be the highest effective setting. beyond this, you will most likely not notice a difference) the limited-slip effect begins to straighted out your car almost immediately. While this helps with stability, too much can take away any chance of a power slide/drift that you are looking for.
I usually set the initial torque in a range from 7-9 depending on the car and driving style I want to use.

The settings for FF and 4WD are very different (and more complex), but since most of the racing cars in the game are FR, this should give people something to start with.

Sorry, I've gone on a bit, but I hope this helps take some of the mystery out of the limited-slip. :swami:

I will be very curious to see if anyone makes use of what I have found to be a great asset. Moreover, I would like to see some great suspension settings to go with the diff setups.
 
Ahhh...the black art begins to de-cloak...

In the amount of time I've been playing (Nearly a year) the Limited diffs are something I've never touched. In the times that I did mess with them, I never noticed a difference.

Help me out if I'm wrong here, but the at the instant the Limited Diff kicks in, My wheels will spin at the same rate, or they begin to spin at different rates? I can understand the basic physics as to the car reaction when it kicks in, but I can't decipher the basic on/off principles.

Or does it not really "turn off", it just has a greater degree of magnitude in the reaction. So if it is set high, my wheels will spin at the same rate, therefore creating push/understeer. In essence, giving equal amounts of power to both rear tires. When set low, it gives more power to the outside tire, thereby enhancing oversteer.

Did I get close? Help me out, as this has a major effect on tire wear in the F1 series at the test course, and the Super Speedway.

I've been meaning to ask about this, but it does seem like a taboo subject.

AO
 
Mmm I have actually lent out my GT3 and GT3 Concept games to a mate - I may have to delve into this when I get them back.

I was pretty seriously into it a couple of months ago, but had to study for my Grad Dip exams, and never picked it back up again.

Nice guide.
 
When the limited-slip diff kicks in, the wheels spin at the same rate.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Der Alta wrote:
Or does it not really "turn off", it just has a greater degree of magnitude in the reaction. So if it is set high, my wheels will spin at the same rate, therefore creating push/understeer. In essence, giving equal amounts of power to both rear tires. When set low, it gives more power to the outside tire, thereby enhancing oversteer. BTW, how do you properly include "XYZ wrote:" to reply to a specific post/section of a post.

As I understand it:
The 'magnitude' is regulated by the accel/decel settings. I think of a low setting as a lack of 'limiting the slip of the diffs'. The 'slip of the diffs' is what lets the wheels spin at different rates. This low setting (lack of limiting) means that the diffs can "slip", rather than 'the low setting makes the wheels turn at different rates'. Pardon the analogy, but this is like the fact that there is no such thing as "cold", only a lack of heat.

The initial torque regulates how soon the slip limiters kick in (think of it as how long the l/s lets you slide before it kicks in).
 
BTW, how do you properly include "XYZ wrote:" to reply to a specific post/section of a post.
Click to expand...

You either click on 'Quote' on the bottom right of the post, and edit out what you want, or you highlight the bit you want, copy it (Ctrl C), then click on 'Post Reply', click on the 'Quote' button and paste in what you copied (Ctrl V).

Nice explanation, BTW.
 
My pleasure. I have certainly enjoyed the benefits from the tips I have seen from others. I am glad to be able to give something back to the GTP community.
 
Yes, QB, I meant to welcome you to GTP earlier. It seems we've gained a number of knowledgeable, literate posters recently... keep up the great work!
:thumbsup:
You are correct in your analysis of how the LSD works, and you've done a fantastic job explaining it. An open differential allows the power to go to whichever drive wheel has the least traction, usually the inside tire on turns. This allows the car to turn handily but limits the available acceleration to the traction of whichever tire is doing the poorest job.

An LSD limits the differential motion of the two (or four) drive wheels. As you've stated, this gives better overall acceleration and decceleration, at the cost of making the car harder to turn.

My only disagreement would be the implication that setting the LSD variables to 'low' numbers would make the car less stable. In truth, all that would do is limit the effectiveness of braking and acceleration, because engine drag and torque would again be going to the 'weakest link' wheel. In fact, setting the accel numbers too high often means power oversteer in a high-hp RWD car, since you are breaking both back wheels loose simultaneously rather than allowing one to stay planted.

Dirt track racers often use a differential called a Detroit Locker, which clamps down 100% under acceleration. This allows them to easily generate the 'drift' they need for that type of racing.
 
Originally posted by neon_duke
My only disagreement would be the implication that setting the LSD variables to 'low' numbers would make the car less stable. In truth, all that would do is limit the effectiveness of braking and acceleration, because engine drag and torque would again be going to the 'weakest link' wheel.
Click to expand...
And I thought this was taboo! Neon_duke, you obviously know more than you were letting on! :camo: Thanks for the clarification. My point here was simply that when the l/s decel setting were decreased to the extreme, the car would not have the advantage of the diff helping to prevent a braking spinout (which is not a problem when braking properly--early and in-line).


cont. by neon_duke
In fact, setting the accel numbers too high often means power oversteer in a high-hp RWD car, since you are breaking both back wheels loose simultaneously rather than allowing one to stay planted.
Click to expand...
Again, you are absolutely correct in your assessment. :thumbsup: In this scenario (high bhp) with too high a l/s accel setting, the rear wheels would break loose and cause the entire back end to lose traction.
 
Good to see you cycling through the avators, quattro_bro!

You know your stuff tech-wise - you'll be a welcome addition here.
 
ACK!....

Now in addition to the OLR, wrapping up Enduro and Pro modes for 100%, I've got to print this out decipher it, and make it work...

Glad to have an additional racing geek on board to clear out some of the fog associated with the black arts. You're a welcome addition QB.

So the problems I had with the wheel and power oversteer could have been fixed with some LSD adjustment, and better right foot management. Hmmm.

More of a reason why GTP is one of the best.

AO
 
Welcome Quattro-bro.
As for Limited slip with 4WD cars. I usually set the initial low like 5 and 8 front/rear.
When I play with Accel I set the front at about half of what I set the rear. Usually 15/30 or 20/40
Then decel I set at half of those values ie: 7or8/15 or 10/20.
It seems to be effective with the Subies and the Skylines. I also tend to run the front/rear power split at 50%.
The Ruf CTR, you will need witchcraft to make it handle. I've even knocked the VCD down to 10% and got it to handle better. Mostly it makes an awesome rally car. The slippery-ness of the dirt makes it more driveable.
 
QB:

It was late last night so I never did get around to answering your initial question about why most people favor suspension tuning over LSD tuning. It seems many people prefer suspension tuning because they understand it better, which makes plenty of sense.

Anyway, for myself, I prefer to minimize LSD tuning because I try to maximize the effectiveness of the LSD. Therefore I try to keep the LSD numbers pretty high, so I adjust the handling via suspension first. Once that is optimized, I fine tune using differential settings if necessary. I also try to keep the F/R VCD ratio at somewhere around 40% as well, in order to keep the advantages of AWD. I don't see much point in dialing out most of the front torque bias and making an FR car out of it. Most times, I am able to dial out the corner-exit understeer by a little reduction of the accel effect and the initial torque on the front differential itself, rather than cutting down the F/R bias to a low number like 20%.

This is great! I love technical discussions. I guess the next issue we need to tackle is transmission gear ratios. You should hear some of the bizarre methods people use to adjust gearing.
 
Kramer? Indeed. Too bad Michael Richards (or whatever his real name is) stinks, in everything else he's ever been in...

EeeeeeYEAH!
 
I'd disagree with the "Everything else". DId you see the Weird Al Yankovic (sp?) movie "UHF"

Stanley Spudowski's playhouse! Michael Richards' break out role.
Really a fore runner for his Kramer character.

AO
 
Well, that's what I mean. He plays Kramer very well... but that's all he plays. Can't say I've had the pleasure of watching UHF, but I have see Airheads.
 
Probably true? I usually run ASM at zero and TCS at 1. Maybe that's the difference.
 
amen quattro bro; I am not miss cleo but the way you type words like 'magnitude' makes me think you do car things outside of GT3. or engineering things anyway.
amen Neon Duke.
Both of you guys are dead on. After being addicted to gt2 for so long I was more than ready for the LSD in gt3. The VCD seems to be much more realistic in gt3. I think it was an add on only for a very few 4wd in gt2. I bet you guys agree with me in my opinion that the reason the GT series dominates is because of its accuracy. One of you guys needs to start a 'technobabble' thread.
 
For those of you interested in the tuning side of GT3, there's a marvellous thread on Gran Turismo By The Numbers that goes into great depth on various aspects of suspension components and how to get them dialed in to your liking.
 

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