T500 RS - 1.09 Update (Discussion)

[Amaru]

1. I will bet that your car is not the TS030 and that you didn't drove it down the mulsanne. The comparison you made must be analysed carefully then. And let's not forget correlation is not causation. The effect you describe does not happen in all tracks, or at least in every situation where you are driving in a straight line. I didn't had the time to do the appropriate testing, but some members here will. Although it appears to me that the car in question has a stiff suspension and is light and the track is bumpy so it is expected some kind of feedback (more than in your normal car). Now I don't think you have enough data (at least within your justification) to conclude it is unrealistic. Maybe the spring rate is to strong and there is nothing to do with the wheel. There are other hypothesis that will render your conclusion wrong. What I see in your post is that you don't like it, and regarding that there is nothing to discuss. You are entitled to your opinion. But I cannot see a strong argument to claim that it is unrealistic. I am not stating that this effect is realistic in any way, I am just advocating to not jump to premeditate conclusions without adequate testing and reasoning. And writing with bigger letters won't give more strength to your argument.

2. With that chain of reasoning the best to you is if you don't use the wheel at all. Because every use applies stronger forces than with the wheel stopped and therefore "won't make it last longer". If it can damage the wheel you must explain why this level of forces may do it. There are reports PC gamers that state the wheel has more ff in the PC because it unleashed its full potential. So you must have an idea of the point where a marginal force applied has passed the appropriate level that the material can support.

3. For the reasons above.

I've experienced this earlier today in GT6 as well but not in a LMP1 car, i can't remember what car it was but it wasn't a racing car. I shall try and test for a couple hours and will get back to you with some more info. (using T500RS)

For people interested in co-testing, i will be hosting a lobby called "1.09 T500RS behaviour test", region Europe (Belgian flag )

 

[Divinus]

Thanks.

If it helps here are some tips:

1 - Track effect - Try one bumpy track with several cars (La Sarthe no chicanes for example) vs one smooth track with the same cars (route x for example).
2 - Car effect - Try different cars in the same track (racing vs non racing, with different drivetrains, different weights, etc). Use different speeds (measure at 100kmh, 150kmh, 200kmh, etc).
3 - Tuning effect - Use the same car and track and try change the tuning in the car: suspension, body rigidity, weight, etc.

I'm sure there is more tests than those, but I can't come with any from the top of my head.

Edit: More two variables:

4. Game Mode: Arcade, Free-Run, Online, Career, Seasonal
5. Force Feedback

This will increase our understanding of the causes.

Also I think there is a somehow a not perfect way to assess the unrealistic claim of the Toyota in La Sarthe:

Record the wheel movements of someone driving down the straight and then compare the video with the onboard cameras of the real counterparts. We don't know what happen if the real pilots let their hands of the wheel (we know what happens when we do it - the pendulum effect as I call it), so a fair comparison should be trying to simulate a race circumstance.

 

[Amaru]

Thanks.

If it helps here are some tips:

1 - Track effect - Try one bumpy track with several cars (La Sarthe no chicanes for example) vs one smooth track with the same cars (route x for example).
2 - Car effect - Try different cars in the same track (racing vs non racing, with different drivetrains, different weights, etc). Use different speeds (measure at 100kmh, 150kmh, 200kmh, etc).
3 - Tuning effect - Use the same car and track and try change the tuning in the car: suspension, body rigidity, weight, etc.

I'm sure there is more tests than those, but I can't come with any from the top of my head.

Will do. Thanks for the tips.

 

[Blkout]

I'm baffled how anyone thinks that the FFB was weak using a T500RS in GT6. Even at a FFB setting of 3, its quite strong in most cars. I have not played since this most recent patch yet, but I can't imagine it being any stronger. I don't know how many of you play other PC racing sims, but you can drive a wheel to clipping by increasing the FFB too much and to be completely honest, I know how a T500 should feel based on other PC racing sims. I can't imagine anyone running their T500 at a setting of 5-10 and not causing the wheel to clip. If the FFB has been increased even more from the game after this patch, it doesn't leave a lot of room to turn down the FFB if you're already using a setting of less than 5.

Now if this most recent patch has brought more consistency in FFB feel across all of the cars, I'll welcome that change. Something tells me though that if there have been any increases in FFB strength in this patch, its simply in preperation for the new T300RS wheel which isn't going to be quite as strong as the T500 wheel.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

I'm baffled how anyone thinks that the FFB was weak using a T500RS in GT6. Even at a FFB setting of 3, its quite strong in most cars. I have not played since this most recent patch yet, but I can't imagine it being any stronger. I don't know how many of you play other PC racing sims, but you can drive a wheel to clipping by increasing the FFB too much and to be completely honest, I know how a T500 should feel based on other PC racing sims. I can't imagine anyone running their T500 at a setting of 5-10 and not causing the wheel to clip. If the FFB has been increased even more from the game after this patch, it doesn't leave a lot of room to turn down the FFB if you're already using a setting of less than 5.

Now if this most recent patch has brought more consistency in FFB feel across all of the cars, I'll welcome that change. Something tells me though that if there have been any increases in FFB strength in this patch, its simply in preperation for the new T300RS wheel which isn't going to be quite as strong as the T500 wheel.

The change appears to make the cars excessively light to turn as if they have no weight or tyre resistance, but has ramped up the crashing and banging effects thus destracting and detracting from the driving experience.

By turning up the crashing and banging PD may have improved the off road driving, but I haven't tested that yet and it seemed fine to me before the update so didn't need fiddling with.

 

[Blkout]

The change appears to make the cars excessively light to turn as if they have no weight or tyre resistance, but has ramped up the crashing and banging effects thus destracting and detracting from the driving experience.

By turning up the crashing and banging PD may have improved the off road driving, but I haven't tested that yet and it seemed fine to me before the update so didn't need fiddling with.

Can't say that I would like that, I thought the curb feel and crash/bang feel was already pretty strong. I'll give it a go today when I get home and see what I think.

 

[Amaru]

I'm baffled how anyone thinks that the FFB was weak using a T500RS in GT6. Even at a FFB setting of 3, its quite strong in most cars. I have not played since this most recent patch yet, but I can't imagine it being any stronger. I don't know how many of you play other PC racing sims, but you can drive a wheel to clipping by increasing the FFB too much and to be completely honest, I know how a T500 should feel based on other PC racing sims. I can't imagine anyone running their T500 at a setting of 5-10 and not causing the wheel to clip. If the FFB has been increased even more from the game after this patch, it doesn't leave a lot of room to turn down the FFB if you're already using a setting of less than 5.

Now if this most recent patch has brought more consistency in FFB feel across all of the cars, I'll welcome that change. Something tells me though that if there have been any increases in FFB strength in this patch, its simply in preperation for the new T300RS wheel which isn't going to be quite as strong as the T500 wheel.

I've been told on the Thrustmaster facebook page that the T300RS had an indentical inside as the T500RS. I could be wrong but i'm sure i've seen it.

As for force feedback, I've been using FFB 10 for over 2years now on my T500RS and its still working. This new patch made FFB 10 feel like i was driving 5.000kg cars so to speak, i've turned it down to 5 and it still feels stronger then what 10 felt like in the previous patch.

 

[Amaru]

Force feedback on 5. Online lobby, De la Sarthe no chicanes 2009:

I'm still testing different cars and different tracks but from what I've done so far, i can tell it's downforce related...

De La Sarthe 2009 no chicanes in online lobby:
-stock Toyota TS030, from +250km/h it start to shake but far from the intensity it has in the seasonal TT.

Same lobby, same car but with minimum downforce:
-No "shaking" whatsoever, reached rev-limit @ 310km/h and still no shaking.

I've tested a Mazda 787B, same result.
Also tested in the Lotus F1 97T - different result: stock, stock&minimum downforce & stock&max downforce all felt thesame, some kind of shaking but only when taking visually noticeable bumps on the straight.

I'm about to test again in normal road cars & racing cars.

Edit: Route-X in a stock Toyota TS030 LMP1 = no shaking whatsoever at top speed.

It'll be probably to early to come to a conclusion but i think its a combination of:
1.Track surface (bumpy surface opposite to a silk-smooth surface)
2.Amount of downforce applied.

They've done a good job as far as i can tell... so far. I don't have much time left to continue testing at the moment but i will definately keep testing whenever i've got some spare time.

 

[Blkout]

I've been told on the Thrustmaster facebook page that the T300RS had an indentical inside as the T500RS. I could be wrong but i'm sure i've seen it.

As for force feedback, I've been using FFB 10 for over 2years now on my T500RS and its still working. This new patch made FFB 10 feel like i was driving 5.000kg cars so to speak, i've turned it down to 5 and it still feels stronger then what 10 felt like in the previous patch.

There's no way it can be the same on the inside, the T500 uses a Buehler brushed motor, the T300 uses a brushless motor like the TX. I'm sure the T300 has much more in common with the TX than the T500.

I never said anything about using a FFB setting of 10 would cause your T500 to die, I said it would cause clipping which basically ruins the FFB feel.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Force feedback on 5. Online lobby, De la Sarthe no chicanes 2009:

I'm still testing different cars and different tracks but from what I've done so far, i can tell it's downforce related...

De La Sarthe 2009 no chicanes in online lobby:
-stock Toyota TS030, from +250km/h it start to shake but far from the intensity it has in the seasonal TT.

Same lobby, same car but with minimum downforce:
-No "shaking" whatsoever, reached rev-limit @ 310km/h and still no shaking.

I've tested a Mazda 787B, same result.
Also tested in the Lotus F1 97T - different result: stock, stock&minimum downforce & stock&max downforce all felt thesame, some kind of shaking but only when taking visually noticeable bumps on the straight.

I'm about to test again in normal road cars & racing cars.

Edit: Route-X in a stock Toyota TS030 LMP1 = no shaking whatsoever at top speed.

It'll be probably to early to come to a conclusion but i think its a combination of:
1.Track surface (bumpy surface opposite to a silk-smooth surface)
2.Amount of downforce applied.

They've done a good job as far as i can tell... so far. I don't have much time left to continue testing at the moment but i will definately keep testing whenever i've got some spare time.

It looks like it's probably a track surface problem. If you take the same car to two different tracks at the same speed, the only variable is the track surface. The Mulsanne is very rough and if the effect over bumps is exaggerated, and you're wavering back and forth over the wheel's centre position at high speed, it'll create problems. Downforce will exacerbate that problem but it's a contributing factor not the cause.

 

[Amaru]

There's no way it can be the same on the inside, the T500 uses a Buehler brushed motor, the T300 uses a brushless motor like the TX. I'm sure the T300 has much more in common with the TX than the T500.

I never said anything about using a FFB setting of 10 would cause your T500 to die, I said it would cause clipping which basically ruins the FFB feel.

Well my T500RS still feels like day 1

I hope the T300RS isn't identical on the inside as the T500RS because of it's price, on the other hand i do think the T300RS is overpriced at 370euros. Should be max 250euros imo.

I hope you're correct, but i doubt it. Where did u get those details about the motor? (i'd like to know more about it myself)

 

[Blkout]

Well my T500RS still feels like day 1

I hope the T300RS isn't identical on the inside as the T500RS because of it's price, on the other hand i do think the T300RS is overpriced at 370euros. Should be max 250euros imo.

I hope you're correct, but i doubt it. Where did u get those details about the motor? (i'd like to know more about it myself)

Again, did I said your T500 would be damaged by clipping? I'm not sure why you keep saying that your T500 is fine. I never implied it wasn't. I said when you drive a wheel to clipping, it ruins the feel of FFB, meaning you lose detail because small forces are boosted too much and strong forces can't be replicated accurately because the wheel has reached its maximum output and clips the signal.

The Thrustmaster T500RS facebook page where the T300RS was announced states industrial brushless motor. That's exactly what the TX uses. In fact, the size of the T300 base looks almost identical to the TX base. The only notable change that I see is that the T300 has 1080 degrees of rotation compared to the TX which has 900.

 

[Amaru]

Again, did I said your T500 would be damaged by clipping? I'm not sure why you keep saying that your T500 is fine. I never implied it wasn't. I said when you drive a wheel to clipping, it ruins the feel of FFB, meaning you lose detail because small forces are boosted too much and strong forces can't be replicated accurately because the wheel has reached its maximum output and clips the signal.

The Thrustmaster T500RS facebook page where the T300RS was announced states industrial brushless motor. That's exactly what the TX uses. In fact, the size of the T300 base looks almost identical to the TX base. The only notable change that I see is that the T300 has 1080 degrees of rotation compared to the TX which has 900.

Stop being so defensive lol... Cheers for the info, appreciated.

 

[Blkout]

Stop being so defensive lol... Cheers for the info, appreciated.

Not defensive, just can't figure out why you keep implying that I said your wheel was going to blow up.

As for the T300, I honestly don't know why the price would be any higher than a TX when it looks like practically the same base, other than the 1080 degrees of rotation, the two pedals are actually the same as the T500 unlike the TX. Should be pretty close in cost unless there's more going on with the T300 than has been shown so far.

 

[Amaru]

Not defensive, just can't figure out why you keep implying that I said your wheel was going to blow up.

I never implied that you said that my wheel was going to blow up.

All i've said was: "I've been using FFB 10 for over 2years now on my T500RS and it still feels like day 1."

In other words, i'm not worried at all about the T500RS FFB becoming less accurate, but you could be correct.

I don't see where i imply that you said my wheel was gonna blow up/die. Might be because english isn't my native language, i get confused from time to time.

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

We don't know what happen if the real pilots let their hands of the wheel (we know what happens when we do it - the pendulum effect as I call it).

I could bet all my money and my ass, that IRL, with that Toyota in Sarthe, that stupid "pendulum effect" (perfect description btw) does not happen! Thus, U-N-R-E-A-L-I-S-T-I-C.

EDIT: Oh, and btw, it was not me who said that the Redbull car was a wheel destroyer, so, my claims: it may damage the wheel.

 

[Fanapryde]

My T500RS is always on FF 5 (tried every other number, but this is the one I normally stick to).
Always been pretty happy with it and its FF.

Then came 1.09 update.

I'm not going to describe all my findings, but just these (because I have mentioned them in other threads (the Thrustmaster T500RS thread for example):

- Seasonal La Sarthe with the new Toyota: on the straights, the steer starts wobbling and shaking en it is hell to keep the car in a straight line (no problem in corners). Feels as if all bolts in the car's steering systeem loosened up.
After three laps (just golded it) I had to take a break and my arms were trembling... come on ! ...

- Nürburg 24' races with several cars: steering feels really light, no feedback of the front wheels and the FF of curbs and bumps are really exaggerated (first few times I really thought my wheel broke... and I hurt my shoulder too)... dramatic...

- Audi R8 LMS Phoenix (supposed to be better after 1.09 as a read) is really bad now. I can not feel what the car is doing. Takes me 5-7" longer to do a lap at the Nürburg 24' race. Tried it 5 times. It's not that I don't know how this car behaves since I have got over 11.500 km with it (90% in Nürburg 24' races).

This is not fun any more.
This piece of crap T500RS update should be corrected or being undone, and the sooner the better...

 

[Divinus]

I could bet all my money and my ass, that IRL, with that Toyota in Sarthe, that stupid "pendulum effect" (perfect description btw) does not happen! Thus, U-N-R-E-A-L-I-S-T-I-C.

You could be right, but my point is that the correct position is: ATM you don't know and so claiming is realistic or unrealistic is not legit, at least with the evidence (or lack of) that you have.

I tried to find a video of the real thing down the mulsanne but most of the onboard cams don't show the wheel (I didn't spend much time looking either to be honest). It would be nice to find some footage and then compare it with someone hanging on the wheel in the game. That would be more conclusive, than just betting to support a claim.

 

[Sick Cylinder]

I did some more testing and the effect of 1.09 on the T500RS seems to vary from track to track and car to car.

I just did some online races / testing at Deep Forest and cars and wheel felt fine.

Just did the seasonals and they were ok except Le Mans car was banging about a lot, but as previous poster said - perhaps just bumps causing a problem at that track.

Red Bull Challenge - effect on that has been to ruin it - which wouldn't matter to me if I didn't rely on it to earn credits.

Cobra with Pirano tune still feels awesome - maybe even better at Deep Forest - has that on the limit almost alive feeling!

So a mixed bag - more testing is needed before making conclusions!

 

[skazz]

The difference in feel between soft and race suspension is even greater than before. But the key change is how the wheel responds and lightens as grip changes.

On the one hand it feels like the FFB is faster and better at keeping the steering aligned with direction of the front wheels as you get oversteer, on the other it lightens up at strange moments.

You have to try it for yourself, it's so different from AC, pCARS, GT5 or previous GT6 implementation, it's hard to explain or compare.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Kind of on Topic, but I remember this video from before... It's from the GT4 days. 4 Mins in for Le Mans.



I thought I remembered Tiff talk more about how much the car moved around going down the mulsanne.. but he doesn't say as much as I remembered.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I ran the time trial in the Toyota this morning using my CSR Elite. It was very very hard to hold it straight at speed wheel was fighting me all the way down the straights I even reduced the FFB from 5 to 3 and still a workout.

I don't know what effect it has had on the other wheels but can't say that I like that aspect with my elite wheel at all. I have saw some real footage though where it looked like the drivers were really having to put forth some effort to keep the wheel in the center kicking left and right a lot.

It was not much fun driving that car on that track though. I did one lap and called it quits.

 

[Fanapryde]

I tried to find a video of the real thing down the mulsanne but most of the onboard cams don't show the wheel (I didn't spend much time looking either to be honest). It would be nice to find some footage

If that car would handle like that irl, the team would never let it start.
I did not find a video irl, but here is the REAL Toyota simulator. I see no trace of wobbling or balancing at the Mulsanne straight'

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/we-drive-toyotas-le-mans-hybrid-prototype-20140620-zsft4.html

 

[Divinus]

If that car would handle like that irl, the team would never let it start.
I did not find a video irl, but here is the REAL Toyota simulator. I see no trace of wobbling or balancing at the Mulsanne straight'

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/we-drive-toyotas-le-mans-hybrid-prototype-20140620-zsft4.html

Nice find 👍. It would be better to have real footage, but this is good enough I think to be used as a comparison.

It starts at around 3:12 and it is incredible steady.
It wobbles slightly when under braking starting at around 3:20, but nothing very noticeable.
At 3:32 it shows a different angle where in this case you can see the wheel wobbling.
The footage at 3:52 and after shows slight wobbling followed by periods of stability.

Now the only thing that is needed is footage from someone playing GT6 to make some comparisons. There are reports than the car behaves differently in and out of the seasonal so maybe a video of each might suffice.

 

[JogoAsobi]

If that car would handle like that irl, the team would never let it start.
I did not find a video irl, but here is the REAL Toyota simulator. I see no trace of wobbling or balancing at the Mulsanne straight'

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/we-drive-toyotas-le-mans-hybrid-prototype-20140620-zsft4.html

In GT5, the Ferrari F1s and FGT's would rock and roll pretty good, but nothing like this.

@Divinus, there is an onboard video in OP of the TS030 Seasonal thread.

 

[Divinus]

In GT5, the Ferrari F1s and FGT's would rock and roll pretty good, but nothing like this.

@Divinus, there is an onboard video in OP of the TS030 Seasonal thread.

Thanks for the heads-up. It was important to get a video with a wheel, to study the motions of the real counterpart and conclude something about how (un)realistic this new feel is.

 

[JogoAsobi]

Thanks for the heads-up. It was important to get a video with a wheel, to study the motions of the real counterpart and conclude something about how (un)realistic this new feel is.

The onboard angle unfortunately does not include the wheel.
Mulsanne straight sections seem to be pretty smooth though.

 

[RacingManiac]

In GT4 my DFP used to do that for the Le Mans on LMP/Group C cars. Which is why I don't do that track a lot for those cars. Most of the time in GT5 and GT6 before this it wasn't that violent. 1.09 definitely up the intensity of it. But I don't think its uncontrollable. IRL also they have power steering. While for most of us I think using the wheel we tend to not use "power steering" in the game, but I am not sure how much that would change.

I don't think its undriveable at all though. The TS030 around Le Mans TT is actually kinda fun...I don't feel like the 1.09 update made anything worse on the T500 RS. The varying in load between different phase of cornering is what I'd expect the tire to behave since the tire's feedback to you(self aligning torque) drops off past certain amount of slip angle, and usually before the tire reached peak lateral load, so the driver use that to judge what the peak grip the tire is offering by dithering between that zone. And I feel like this is right now pretty close to what that feels like. The extra violent bump reaction seems to be a different issue. Though if as some mentioned its not as bad on softer street cars, it makes sense since once downforce load up the car or the car is just super stiff, more of that force will transfer to the wheel...also IRL Le Mans is public road, aside for Porsche curves and the Bugatti circuit portion all of that is regular road, and they are not race track smooth.

 

[the_proffs]

Ok, this is how the force feedback works with my wheel on ffb5.

when holding the wheel like I normally hold it on a straight.


When trying to fight the wheel with all I have.


The fact that some even discuss whether this is realistic make me wonder if it is the same on all T500rs. My wheel is a V.1 so it is from the first production series.

 

[Blkout]

I never implied that you said that my wheel was going to blow up.

All i've said was: "I've been using FFB 10 for over 2years now on my T500RS and it still feels like day 1."

In other words, i'm not worried at all about the T500RS FFB becoming less accurate, but you could be correct.

I don't see where i imply that you said my wheel was gonna blow up/die. Might be because english isn't my native language, i get confused from time to time.

Ahh, I get it now, you don't understand what clipping is. Even though I tried to explain it to you, you still don't understand. Let me try this again. Based on your last statement you seem to think when I say your wheel won't be as accurate when its clipping means that your wheel is degrading over time, that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying if you drive a wheel to clipping meaning that you ask for more FFB than the wheel can deliver, you are ruining the FFB effect that you feel while driving because you're amplifying the weaker FFB effects from the game to make them stronger, but the stronger FFB effects from the game can't be produced accurately and thus you don't get a good feel. You may think that you like the feel of it because it feels heavy, but you're actually missing the detailed effects you should be getting because of running your FFB too high and causing the wheel to clip. I assume you don't play any other PC racing sims, because you would likely be aware of FFB clipping. Many PC racing sims even have a display to show you when your wheel is clipping. I can assure that GT6 at a FFB of 10 is clipping.