The 505/550 Hybrid Thread

[Voodoovaj]

With all the discussion going on about whether this hybrid movement is cheating or simply more tuning, I thought it best to put this thread together to help prove a point. Either we'll find a method of making over powered cars (supporting the naysayers) or we'll show how hybrids extend the life of the game (supporting the proponents). Since 500/505 and 550 are considered to be the most even ground for online competition, post up your racing hybrids (drifting has their own threads)

Here's the rules:

1 - The car MUST be tuned to 500/505 or 550 (please state which)
2 - Post weight and HP figures as well
2 - The car must be neat and clean - Tires must tuck into the fenders. They cannot extend beyond the fenders or clip through the body work.

That's it. Please drive your car (on the Nurburgring) to make sure it actually works before posting. In keeping with the forum rules, please DO NOT divulge how you achieved this hybrid in the open forum. Everyone can Google and experiment on their own or gain information in some other fashion.

The reason I request Nurburgring is because going overboard on horsepower, causing the PP to wrap into the negatives, should render your car useless making negative PP hacks a moot point.

Edit - I did an LFA 550(RS)/Nordscliefe lap for bench-marking. 6:41.147. None of my modded cars are faster at the moment.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'll go first.

Sambabus - 505PP 1085kg/373hp

C63 - 550PP 1342kg/503hp

 

[PaulGrey]

Nice cars voodoo, see you at the 'ring with my 550pp '73 BMW 2002 M5 powered, M coupe chassis car. Stockerace

 

[DaDog]

I like the 505pp Sambabus , would look cool to take that around the ring ... Nice to see you keep the hybriding to a realistic form . I do have to ask what engine you dropped in the bus tho ...
( please tell me its a RUF / Porsche engine anything else would be sacreligios ... i am pretty sure thats misspelled but my spellings check thingy doesnt reconises the word )

 

[Voodoovaj]

I like the 505pp Sambabus , would look cool to take that around the ring ... Nice to see you keep the hybriding to a realistic form . I do have to ask what engine you dropped in the bus tho ...
( please tell me its a RUF / Porsche engine anything else would be sacreligios ... i am pretty sure thats misspelled but my spellings check thingy doesnt reconises the word )

lol, it WOULD be sacrilegious! It's a BTR engine

 

[TexasTyme214]

Can you display some lap times? Horsepower and weight don't tell the full story.

 

[DiersZee1]

Can you display some lap times? Horsepower and weight don't tell the full story.

If you want to find out how they perform, you can join Johnnypenso when he gets a lobby going. Honest, down to earth and clean driver. The PD car you drive should be close to his.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=279333

Based on the Sambus 505PP seems close to any PD car at that range.

Note: Just because the Sambus has 505PP and you have an equal car with PP, you still need to drive the car. OP might not be as good of a driver, or you may not be as good. I am no where near Johnnypenso's skill levels and my aero on the 370Z GTA PD car helped me a ton and laps were with in reason of each other. If OP is honest, then you have a fair chance IMHO as long as the driving is there too.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Numbers tell quite a lot, Johnnypenso is working on a series that sounds great. I'm a pretty decent driver (IMHO) which may be why I see hybrids as a non issue.

I will post up Nurburgring times as soon as I get them (I don't remember them exactly so I don't want to tell lies)

 

[DiersZee1]

Numbers tell quite a lot, Johnnypenso is working on a series that sounds great. I'm a pretty decent driver (IMHO) which may be why I see hybrids as a non issue.

I will post up Nurburgring times as soon as I get them (I don't remember them exactly so I don't want to tell lies)

I apologize as I am not saying you are a bad driver or he is a bad driver. I was just throwing the possibilities up there. But, the point being, if a PD car or Modded car beats someone...it could be the "Indian" and not the Arrow if the field is honest.

I do not do Modded (rather not call them hybrids ), but that Sambus and Benz do look good

 

[Voodoovaj]

Nice cars voodoo, see you at the 'ring with my 550pp '73 BMW 2002 M5 powered, M coupe chassis car. Stockerace

Yes you will! Post up dude!

By the underwhelming amount of posts, I think it's safe to assume that the hysteria over CHEATS is out of proportion. I hear a lot of talk about 800-1000hp/800-900kg cars, but obviously they don't meet the 505/550 criteria.

 

[PaulGrey]

I made my cars to drive in my 550pp room at the 'ring but when people see that it's a hybrid there will always be that thought that the car has more than what is shown. What I mean is just because it's in a PP restricted room doesn't mean that it hasn't been hacked with a negative PP no#. I made my cars to give me the opportunity to drive some rides that don't normally fit in my room or are under powered. Ex. M3 with a supercharger on it to bring it up to 550PP or my Cobra R Mustang with no wing on it or my 2002 BMW with the M5 motor in it, even though they all meet the 550pp room restriction. You must have some honor among thieves, if you will, that your fellow drivers are not trying to scam you. I drove with a guy the other day that had a '82 Audi quattro with the bits from the R8 in it. He was a good driver and he just wanted to run his cars with some other drivers. There were no problems with this since he didn't win but if he had, I'm sure people would have asked him to not drive that car or leave the room. People want to know that when the race starts, everyone has an equal chance to win depending on their driving skills and not the fact that they snuck an overpowered car in. Hopefully I'll have my room open tonight around 7PM. Anyone with a 550PP hybrid that wants to run the 'ring, stop on in. My PSN: Stockerace

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'd love to see someone try to put an overpowered car in AND be able to actually drive it.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

I'd love to see someone try to put an overpowered car in AND be able to actually drive it.

Define overpowered.

 

[Nurburgthing.]

I'd love to see someone try to put an overpowered car in AND be able to actually drive it.

Define overpowered.

Yes, please do.

I would class 1300hp in a Samba as overpowered and I can get that round the ring at full power, if i'm careful.
It does 270mph as well.

Do you mean a subaru 360 with 238,465hp?

 

[eran0004]

What about the grip multiplier?
What about supersoft tyres?
What about 11 speed gearboxes?

None of that contributes to the performance points as far as I understand it.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Define overpowered.

Exactly! The amount of horsepower needed to get into a 550pp room for any SLEEPER (That's what I call them) is not extreme. There's this crazy belief out there that a modded car with a billion horsepower and 10g of grip can get into a PP limited room, and that simply is not the case.

If you increase the horsepower to such an extreme amount that the PP wraps into the negative values, the car is not useable on a regular circuit. But go ahead and try.

 

[Voodoovaj]

480hp/1260kg

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

What about the grip multiplier?
What about supersoft tyres?
What about 11 speed gearboxes?

None of that contributes to the performance points as far as I understand it.

Grip multiplier increased PP just like downforce does. Supersoft tires barely more grippier than soft tires. 11 speed gearboxes only useful for overpowered cars and lots of straight - on the twisties, the burden of changing gears too often would not make any advantage in time

 

[eran0004]

Grip multiplier increased PP just like downforce does. Supersoft tires barely more grippier than soft tires. 11 speed gearboxes only useful for overpowered cars and lots of straight - on the twisties, the burden of changing gears too often would not make any advantage in time

In the discussions I've been reading they say that grip multiplier does not contribute to the performance points (at least not in any significant way).

Barely more grippy is still more grippy.

11 speed gearbox might be overkill, but if you add a 7th or an 8th gear you can gain quite a lot of time by having a close gear ratio and a high top speed.

 

[MOTORTRENDmitch]

Yeah, label a car as "overpowered" at different points depending on what it's made for.
Many car in real life that are meant ONLY for 1/4 may have upwards of 2000hp, I have a few at 1600 +/- and I feel like much more (400+) then that is over doing it. However, the top speed cars in the real world can have even more and be street legal! (Hennessy GT-TT that did 267 in the standing mile). It (for me) all depends on the respective field that the car was made to preform in.

No doubt though, the several thousand horsepower cars are OVRPWRD

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

In the discussions I've been reading they say that grip multiplier does not contribute to the performance points (at least not in any significant way).

Barely more grippy is still more grippy.

11 speed gearbox might be overkill, but if you add a 7th or an 8th gear you can gain quite a lot of time by having a close gear ratio and a high top speed.

I added 1.03 grip and 5 pp increase is the result, feels like adding 2 or 3 clicks of downforce front and back. I posted a Camaro RM on showcase thread with 500+ HP with 2.5 times grip multiplier, the PP jumped from less than 600 to 800+ and the car becomes undriveable, it rolls over when turning or braking.

Gearbox is more of tuning aspect, having more gear does not always mean better lap time, it's still in the optimum ratio and consistent capable driver.

 

[Johnnypenso]

In the discussions I've been reading they say that grip multiplier does not contribute to the performance points (at least not in any significant way).

Barely more grippy is still more grippy.

11 speed gearbox might be overkill, but if you add a 7th or an 8th gear you can gain quite a lot of time by having a close gear ratio and a high top speed.

I have experimented with various cars with the grip multiplier and I can tell you a few things about it.

Yes it affects PP. Adding grip adds to PP or conversely, costs you HP to maintain the same PP. There is no free lunch.

Can it improve performance at a fixed PP level? Yes it can, but more importantly, it mainly improves the handling of what are poor handling cars to begin with and brings them closer to, but not faster than, the fastest cars at a give PP level. I shaved 1.5 seconds off a stock 69' Vette on SM/500PP tires at DFR by experimenting with the grip, but it's still not as fast as cars I had already tuned prior to hybriding for the same combination.

All the grippiest cars in the game have less power so adding grip to them is fruitless. You might get the grip of SS tires out of an NSX on SM tires by altering grip levels, but you'll lose so much HP it won't help you and your laptimes will begin to rise, not fall.

As far as the 7+ speed gearboxes, it can be a slight advantage in some situations, mostly on tracks the like Road Course Indy or bigger on cars that have peaky power bands. On cars with flatter powerbands, 6 speeds are not going to be any slower than 7 or 8 or 9 or whatever.

My best estimate for RCI for example would be that you gain a tenth or two at best. I imagine at La Sarthe it would be more, but I don't race there so I couldn't tell you. In the pre-hybrid version of the game, no one had any trouble going 400+km/h in LMP's, even the 5 speeds, so it can't be that big of an issue

RSS tires, again, someone else would have to verify. I find RS tires too arcade like for me so I don't use them an any cars. At 600-650PP I prefer RH tires for racing. You can set the lobby to RM or RH so RSS tires won't have any effect.

 

[eran0004]

I added 1.03 grip and 5 pp increase is the result, feels like adding 2 or 3 clicks of downforce front and back. I posted a Camaro RM on showcase thread with 500+ HP with 2.5 times grip multiplier, the PP jumped from less than 600 to 800+ and the car becomes undriveable, it rolls over when turning or braking.

Gearbox is more of tuning aspect, having more gear does not always mean better lap time, it's still in the optimum ratio and consistent capable driver.

So, if you're driving on a track with many turns and not so high speed (like Eiger or Côte d'Azur), you could in theory cut away all downforce and add to the grip multiplier instead. That should improve cornering at low speeds, right?

The lap time is not in the gearbox, but the better gearbox you have, the better are your chances to make good laps.

 

[seanneedscar]

You guys are all delusional trying to tell us that grip multipliers, SS tires, and extra gears have a negligible impact on lap times.

Total delusion. Stop trying to justify what you're doing. Your hacked cars that 'its only a little difference' is still a difference. Its a difference that would get you a win instead of a 2nd place against normal car drivers.

 

[Johnnypenso]

So, if you're driving on a track with many turns and not so high speed (like Eiger or Côte d'Azur), you could in theory cut away all downforce and add to the grip multiplier instead. That should improve cornering at low speeds, right?

The lap time is not in the gearbox, but the better gearbox you have, the better are your chances to make good laps.

It will improve cornering at the cost of HP, yes. HP counts even at Monaco and Eiger. I have a feeling that grip multiplier and downforce are the same thing in GT5, difference being with downforce you specify which end it goes to. Taking away downforce and adding grip will put you in the same place.

The laptime is in the gearbox to some degree. Transmission tuning is important for all cars, and doubly so for some. A typical car might operate in a 1000-1200 rpm range while racing. Adding a 7th or 8th gear might narrow that range down to 900-1100 rpm which will have very little, if any affect on overall lap times, even in the peakiest powered cars.

You guys are all delusional trying to tell us that grip multipliers, SS tires, and extra gears have a negligible impact on lap times.
Total delusion. Stop trying to justify what you're doing. Your hacked cars that 'its only a little difference' is still a difference. Its a difference that would get you a win instead of a 2nd place against normal car drivers.

I am intimately familiar with all the tuning parameters available in the standard game and quickly becoming knowlegable in what is possible with hybriding. You are incorrect for the most part, for the reasons I outlined earlier. Yes I can now tune a 69' Vette or other previously uncompetitive cars to be competitive in PP racing, but I have yet to find combinations that are actually faster than standard tuned cars like a Lotus Elise 111R, Lexus LFA, GT500 car etc. depending on the PP level. Increasing the grip on a 111R for example will make it corner faster but cost you HP in the process. That may be an advantage at some tracks, and not others, remains to be seen. When I find out, I'll let the world know

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

So, if you're driving on a track with many turns and not so high speed (like Eiger or Côte d'Azur), you could in theory cut away all downforce and add to the grip multiplier instead. That should improve cornering at low speeds, right?

The lap time is not in the gearbox, but the better gearbox you have, the better are your chances to make good laps.

In a PP limited room, more grip would mean more weight or less HP, the same deal with having more downforce, so it's just a replacement for downforce, you gain in one side, you lose the other. Low speed cornering with grip multiplier is not really good - the way it works is it add more max cornering G's for the current fitted tire - not sustained Gs I think as the higher the multiplier, the more twitchy and unstable the car becomes, the side effects even more felt with racing tires - specially Racing soft.

My Camaro RM would go on 2 wheels in every corner with more than 1.5 times grip on RS tires, simply too much, and the PP skyrocketed to 700+.

Using lower grip multiplier would be the best for balance, but it won't be any faster than without, when HP or weight or downforce taking the hit.

You should try a car with 2.5 time grip to see how it works, it's not like a super sticky tire would do, it's twitchy and unpredictable when too much applied.

About gearbox, you need to compare the exact tune with only gearbox changed, same driver ,same track, same condition, I doubt that with 6 speed and another with 8 speed would yield more than a few tenths at best with the most consistent driver in the world - very unlikely to give visible advantage in a race online. Shifting gears cost times, you want the least shifting occurs throughout one lap while maintaining optimum rpm and power band in every corner.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yes, please do.

I would class 1300hp in a Samba as overpowered and I can get that round the ring at full power, if i'm careful.
It does 270mph as well.

Do you mean a subaru 360 with 238,465hp?

...and it has 550pp? What was your laptime? Not trying to be a troll but please read the title of the thread in case you missed it.

People TALK about 1000+ HP, so post up your hp and weight numbers when you tune to 500PP-550PP. Is a subaru 360 with 238465hp 550PP? What was your lap time?

Some of the posts in this thread are a perfect examples of perception vs reality. Those who have not tried to get a car into a PP limited room have an unsubstantiated belief that something can get slipped past the system. The system isn't perfect, but every benefit you add through a mod will cost you somewhere else. Add grip = less horsepower or more weight.

 

[seanneedscar]

I am intimately familiar with all the tuning parameters available in the standard game and quickly becoming knowlegable in what is possible with hybriding. You are incorrect for the most part, for the reasons I outlined earlier. Yes I can now tune a 69' Vette or other previously uncompetitive cars to be competitive in PP racing, but I have yet to find combinations that are actually faster than standard tuned cars like a Lotus Elise 111R, Lexus LFA, GT500 car etc. depending on the PP level. Increasing the grip on a 111R for example will make it corner faster but cost you HP in the process. That may be an advantage at some tracks, and not others, remains to be seen. When I find out, I'll let the world know

I'm wrong because you say so? lol

Do SS tires make you faster? - Yes, indisputable (to quote Rido) "barely more grippier than soft tires" - that is still [grippier] and therefore faster

Do more gears make you faster? - Yes, indisputable (to quote you) "which will have very little, if any affect" - very little is still faster

Time for you to smell what you're shoveling my friend. Just because you put the most amount of time into testing this means nothing. Lets say youre the 1 eyed man in the land of the blind

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm wrong because you say so? lol

Do SS tires make you faster? - Yes, indisputable (to quote Rido) "barely more grippier than soft tires" - that is still [grippier] and therefore faster

Do more gears make you faster? - Yes, indisputable (to quote you) "which will have very little, if any affect" - very little is still faster

Time for you to smell what you're shoveling my friend. Just because you put the most amount of time into testing this means nothing. Lets say youre the 1 eyed man in the land of the blind

You're wrong because you're basing your conclusions on hysteria and I'm basing mine on emperical testing. As I said, I don't use RS tires so for me it's a non-issue. If you use them then it might be an issue for you. And I said the extra gears in a tranny will only help you in very limited circumstances in a limited number of cars. If you call losing 2/10ths on a perfect lap on a couple of tracks in a handful of cars an advantage, then yes it's an advantage. In the vast, vast majority of Tire/PP/Track combinations I've encountered online, it will make no difference at all. Zero, none.

How many times have you raced against an 8 speed ISF and got blown away because I never have. 458 Italia's come with 7 speeds and altough they are good cars, they still get beat by a handful of 6 speeds that are even better. Ever lose to a BMW M5? Once the car is in the powerband, and most cars have a wide enough powerband with proper tuning, it doesn't matter whether you are in 4th or 6th or 8th, the acceleration is the same. It's keeping it in the powerband that's the skill and that's where tuning and driving come in, and it has nothing to do with the gearbox.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I'm wrong because you say so? lol

Do SS tires make you faster? - Yes, indisputable (to quote Rido) "barely more grippier than soft tires" - that is still [grippier] and therefore faster

Do more gears make you faster? - Yes, indisputable (to quote you) "which will have very little, if any affect" - very little is still faster

Time for you to smell what you're shoveling my friend. Just because you put the most amount of time into testing this means nothing. Lets say youre the 1 eyed man in the land of the blind

By your reasoning then, changing tires is MORE of a cheat than the grip multiplier. Since a tire change does not increase your PP, but grip multiplier definitely does. And actually, putting time into testing means everything since we speak from knowledge rather than perception. If you don't want to mod your car or let someone mod their's, fine. But I love it.

Anyway, this thread has gone COMPLETELY off topic. I want to see 500-550 cars posted with stats.