The Bombing of Dresden

[Tacet_Blue]

The Queen (Elizabeth II of UK in case you didn't know) recently laid a wreath at the Neue Wache in Berlin in honour of the victims of war during a state visit to Germany.

She was requested to apologise for the assault on Dresden, which killed 50,000 in 1945.

I have many German friends online, I'll name Toler, Flinx and Comrade, my question is:

Is this apology necessary. In truth the German nation has moved on beyond recognition of the days of the Nazi party, so in fact we would be apologising to the wrong people. Whilst the Queens gesture pays respect to the fallen, it was war, and it is in the past. Surely the diplomatic and trade relations we have today are far more important than words from the Queen.

My generation will never understand the hardship that the citizens who lived through the blitz had to endure, but they don't ask for an apology. As I said it was war.

Is this a big deal in Germany, or just a political shot across the bow, does the fact she declined bother anyone?

 

[ExigeEvan]

Is this apology necessary. In truth the German nation has moved on beyond recognition of the days of the Nazi party, so in fact we would be apologising to the wrong people.

How would it be the wrong people? The people bombed weren't neccesarily Nazi's. And many people lost relatives in the blitz.

I don't think the Queen needed to aplogize, not becasue it was war, but because it is from the past and surely no 'sorry' can heal what happened.
I'm sure if Chancellor Gerald Schroder came to Swansea (city where I live, quite heavily bombed) I doubt he would be asked for an apology.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

How would it be the wrong people? The people bombed weren't neccesarily Nazi's. And many people lost relatives in the blitz.

Yes..I was thinking of changing the wording of that...I meant that the assault was in response to what the Nazi party were doing, probably not the best phrase I could have chosen.

I agree, how much hurt can one apology heal.

We've moved on and are stronger, so has Germany, I'm hoping that the fact the Queen declined doesn't open a little rift in Europe

 

[ExigeEvan]

Little rift? The rift in Europe is bigger than the Pacific. But lets not get into that.

Where in the UK you live Tacet?

 

[Tacet_Blue]

Little rift? The rift in Europe is bigger than the Pacific. But lets not get into that.

Where in the UK you live Tacet?

Theres a bigger rift with the dodgy Chirac and France than there is with Germany. Europe's just annoyed with us that we didn't bring the strong pound into the Euro

I live on the South Coast, Portsmouth.

 

[demon of speed]

I don't see why the queen must apologise. They bombed us, we bombed them. They Nazi's had to be stopped. If my grandparents heard this, they would be incredibly angry.

 

[toler]

this one is difficult. i believe there are a lot of older people welcoming the queens gesture. as for me, i´m 28, i really don´t care. i grew up in germany as well as in the UK and australia. my passport says i´m german though and because of that i´d rather apologise for the horrible things germans did to millions of innocent people.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

this one is difficult. i believe there are a lot of older people welcoming the queens gesture.

Cheers Toler, its German opinions I'm really interested in on this one. 👍

I think the Queens gesture does say a lot, its almost the same as an apology, in fact maybe better, as actions speak louder.

You're the same as me, we haven't really lived during wartime so we don't feel the same as maybe our grandparents. I'm old enough though, that my father was on duty during WWII as a Royal Engineer.

The dangerous thing is, that her decline could be seen as that we don't care, but as you say, as a nation we can only apologise for the millions that were killed during WWII, but to the relatives, those apologies mean little.

On the positive side, and looking at todays middle east crisis, the message is...the UK and Germany are fellow members of NATO, despite our past.

Is it being reported in Germany in the same way as over here, or doesn't it even make it onto the news?
I'm curious as to how it is being portrayed in Germany, over here, commentators say that perhaps she should have apologised.

Edit: My father won't thank me for making him out to be that old ...the war ended before he saw active service, as a very young man he enlisted, and all he did was pull tanks out of ditches when they got stuck.

 

[toler]

i really didn´t hear anything on this subject in the news. the only thing i heard was that the queen was over here for visit, that´s all.

edit: that´s prolly because i was killing thousands of people in san andreas

 

[Tacet_Blue]

i really didn´t hear anything on this subject in the news. the only thing i heard was that the queen was over here for visit, that´s all.

Interesting.

Cheers dude, sorry to name you in the first post and drag you into this

Laters

btw GTA:SA rocks!

 

[Famine]

The bombing of Dresden wasn't carried out with the intent of causing many civilian casualties. It was a strategic strike on an industrial heartland of the Third Reich. Similarly, the bombings of Coventry, London and Sheffield, amongst others (and Sheffield was badly hit, with the strikes being so ferocious that the air itsefl caught fire, covering parts of the city with firestorms) were carried out as a strike at the industrial heartlands of England.

I don't expect Schroeder - or ANY German - to apologise for acts carried out against my city. The people who carried out the raids were doing so under orders from people who eventually got their just desserts. Similarly, the Queen - who wasn't Queen at the time, but WAS a sergeant in the ATS - shouldn't have to apologise for acts carried out by people acting under orders from the government of the time, of whom the King was a figurehead only. He had no direct control.

Civilian casualties are almost always undesirable (I add the qualifier "almost", because to some people - the Bin Ladens and Husseins of this world - they are precisely what they want), but in war **** happens. If we went round apologising for everything, there wouldn't have been any wars since 873AD, because we'd have all been going over to other countries, apologising for the sacking of Troy and the Vikings.

 

[Duke]

Is a wreath appropriate? Yes, an expression of sadness for the victims of war.

Is an apology appropriate? Absolutely not. An expression of guilt that has no place, considering Germany's role as aggressor in that war.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Is a wreath appropriate? Yes, an expression of sadness for the victims of war.

Is an apology appropriate? Absolutely not. An expression of guilt that has no place, considering Germany's role as aggressor in that war.

I absolutely agree with that.

Although bombing of certain cities was carried out with the intend of "destroying the German peoples moral" i.e. bombing civilians, it was WWII, and it was a time few people alive today can imagine.

I understand why the "apology" was asked for in humanitarian terms, but it still a bit of a cheek.

 

[Arwin]

If we went round apologising for everything, there wouldn't have been any wars since 873AD.

Maybe that's the point?

 

[milefile]

Is it any coincidence that the looser asked for an apology?

 

[vladimir]

nobody of importance asked for an apology. an old CSU wanker started a debate about it, but chancellor schröder clearly said that it was ridiculous and he would not dare to ask her to apologize.

the british papers exaggerated the story and wrote that german politicians asked for an apology, but that was not true. they apparently just tried to score another point against nazi-germany...

 

[Arwin]

the british papers exaggerated the story and wrote that german politicians asked for an apology, but that was not true. they apparently just tried to score another point against nazi-germany...

It's amazing how bad some papers are. I think some kind of journalistic standard should be set and the papers labeled. That way people would be slightly more aware than they are now that some papers do not uphold any standards of journalism at all and should be treated as a piece of fiction. Not that they will care, but who knows it might help avoid confusion, if only a little bit.

 

[Tacet_Blue]

nobody of importance asked for an apology. an old CSU wanker started a debate about it, but chancellor schröder clearly said that it was ridiculous and he would not dare to ask her to apologize.

the british papers exaggerated the story and wrote that german politicians asked for an apology, but that was not true. they apparently just tried to score another point against nazi-germany...

It does seem that way now, thanks

 

[Famine]

Anyone wondering why I don't read any British papers?

 

[vladimir]

arwin,

it is done here in germany. the most famous tabloid "Bild" is not allowed to call itself a newspaper any more. but it has not helped, it still is the paper with the most readers.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Is it any coincidence that the looser asked for an apology?

How can there be a loser if there are no winners in war?

The bombing of Dresden wasn't carried out with the intent of causing many civilian casualties. It was a strategic strike on an industrial heartland of the Third Reich. Similarly, the bombings of Coventry, London and Sheffield, amongst others (and Sheffield was badly hit, with the strikes being so ferocious that the air itsefl caught fire, covering parts of the city with firestorms) were carried out as a strike at the industrial heartlands of England.

Can we turn this into 'my town was bombed worse than yours' competetion?

Swansea, A major port at the time and one of the main ports for the docking of American soldiers. Was badly bomber. Much of the city centre was leveled (and the lame buildings that replaced them still stand) also much of the outer areas, including the town of Neath, were also damaged by bomber offloading any remaining bombs.

Some bombs are still found in peoples back garden, several feet below the surface.

 

[Famine]

Everything that moved from the UK in WW2 was built with steel made in Sheffield. We got ass-raped. Firestorms, remember...

 

[demon of speed]

London got quite battered I think.

 

[daan]

Everything that moved from the UK in WW2 was built with steel made in Sheffield. We got ass-raped. Firestorms, remember...

You win, but...

During World War II Clydebank's production of ships and munitions for the allies made the town a target for the German Luftwaffe: 439 bombers dropped over 1000 bombs on 13th and 14th of March 1941. Of 12,000 homes in the town less than a dozen were undamaged and over 35,000 people were made homeless. The raid, known as the Clydebank Blitz, was the worst suffered by Scotland during the war and resulted in 578 civilian deaths.

Production of ships and munitions made from Scottish steel.

 

[Arwin]

It's not actually my town but the Germans bombed Rotterdam with about 40.000 dead, after which the Netherlands surrendered.

 

[demon of speed]

It's not actually my town but the Germans bombed Rotterdam with about 40.000 dead, after which the Netherlands surrendered.

Expect an appology in the post.

 

[High-Test]

Poo Tee Weet? /\ I'm very sorry Arwin. The worst thing that happened to my state is when in 1859 A man call Quantrill went and burned down the city of lawrence because the town was against slavery.

 

[Arwin]

Expect an appology in the post.

Actually we already got them and the Germans are frequently guests on our memorial and liberation days.