The Cadillac thread

[05XR8]

The argument is “Mercedes participated for three years and managed to find support from the fans, so Cadillac can find support as well if they choose to join.”

What you wrote sounds more like your argument for why they shouldn’t join, not his argument for why they should.

Not at all. I already pointed out, Mercedes wasn't even in it. It was all Betty's money. Which, flew over his head. He's concentrating on my sarcastic response to his sarcastic response. He wants to continue on, so I broke it down why the E63s not running, had nothing to do with all these magical people not wanting them there.

Plus, Garry Rogers Motorsport had thought of running Chryslers before the Volvos, but Chrysler didn't come to the table. Nothing I said relates to his quote. In his eyes.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

As for Cadillac, they really just aren’t a name with any real sporting heritage or pretensions. You can’t just voodoo up racing panache after a hundred years of not caring about motorsport. I can see them working as an engine supplier for for things like DPi cars and Indy and whatever, but not as a factory team for anything.

I don't think that's true. Cadillac has been hitting the race grid pretty hard over the last 20 years. They even have a motorsports page on their official website! I don't know enough about V8SC to understand if Cadillac is a good fit, but I think you are overselling the level of posh that post-90s Cadillacs have - the fast ones (mostly) have supercharged pushrod V8 engines.

 

[05XR8]

And statistically speaking, at the time Betty made the case for running the E63s, Australia were selling the most AMGs, per capita, in the world.

GM are labelling Holden dealerships as General Motors Special Vehicles(GMSV). Showcasing a Cadillac race car, makes sense in promoting the brand here. If people are willing to plunk down money on a Corvette and since people have spent money on 300 SRT-8s, there's a pretty good chance people are willing to buy a Cadillac performance sedan.

 

[Frank McGank]

I don't think that's true. Cadillac has been hitting the race grid pretty hard over the last 20 years. They even have a motorsports page on their official website! I don't know enough about V8SC to understand if Cadillac is a good fit, but I think you are overselling the level of posh that post-90s Cadillacs have - the fast ones (mostly) have supercharged pushrod V8 engines.

V8SC is basically the midway point between NASCAR and BTCC. Big family cars slamming doors together, as 10,000 drunken working class folk get into a fistfight in the grandstands. Can you imagine Dale Earnhardt racing a Caddy at Daytona?

plus, prior to about 2005, Cadillac’s “motorsport history” amounted to about a dozen privateer entries in various the 40s and 50s. Then they tried to make an LMP car in 2006 which failed, then focused on exclusively IMSA’s GT3 which is where they’ve mainly been since save for the DPi car starting in 2017. They’ve got as much racing panache as Infiniti.

 

[Keef]

So while reading an article about the new TLX's trunk on Autoblog, I randomely discovered that the CT4 exists. I've never heard of this vehicle before. As far as I can tell it's a facelifted ATS, but I'm not sure why it exists because the CT5 is smaller than the old CTS. Not sure why they have two cars that are damn near the same side, one of them uglier than the other.

But that's Cadillac in the 21st century I suppose, selling things that "somebody will buy" because they've heard "Cadillac is pretty nice."

 

[Tornado]

plus, prior to about 2005, Cadillac’s “motorsport history” amounted to about a dozen privateer entries in various the 40s and 50s. Then they tried to make an LMP car in 2006 which failed, then focused on exclusively IMSA’s GT3 which is where they’ve mainly been since save for the DPi car starting in 2017. They’ve got as much racing panache as Infiniti.

You know, he even linked the page on Cadillac's website that roughly outlined their racing history over the last twenty years (which is, incidentally, much more than Renault taking a car they have already helped develop and putting Infiniti stickers on them every few years; or Infiniti making a big deal about a BTCC entry that they abandoned after three races). There's no reason to be as aggressively wrong about that as you are about everything else.

So while reading an article about the new TLX's trunk on Autoblog, I randomely discovered that the CT4 exists. I've never heard of this vehicle before. As far as I can tell it's a facelifted ATS, but I'm not sure why it exists because the CT5 is smaller than the old CTS. Not sure why they have two cars that are damn near the same side, one of them uglier than the other

That's exactly what it is. They took the ATS and redid the interior and exterior, put worse engines in it across the board and chopped a bunch of money off the price while insisting it was an all new car on a new platform that they can target at the crappy entry-level FWD BMW and Mercedes.

 

[Keef]

There's a bit in here about Cadillac's future EV offerings.

 

[-Fred-]

Manual transmission available for both cars... Chevrolet SS part 2, Electric Boogaloo.

 

[Tornado]

No company in the industry puts as much effort into reinventing the status quo as Cadillac.

"We'll make a new performance trim that references our performance flagship and it's all new engine which we discontinued almost immediately after launching it. Then a year later we'll apply it to our badly reskinned versions of cars we made a point to discontinue; neither of which feature the engine in question. We'll make them both perform identically to the cars they replaced, to be sure everyone keeps wondering 'why didn't they just put the Camaro engine in it?'."





It's the XLR all over again.

 

[CTznOfTime]

No company in the industry puts as much effort into reinventing the status quo as Cadillac.

"We'll make a new performance trim that references our performance flagship and it's all new engine which we discontinued almost immediately after launching it. Then a year later we'll apply it to our badly reskinned versions of cars we made a point to discontinue; neither of which feature the engine in question. We'll make them both perform identically to the cars they replaced, to be sure everyone keeps wondering 'why didn't they just put the Camaro engine in it?'."


It's the XLR all over again.

yeah, but this time 3rd time is the charm, the really really really have learned their lessons and are better than ever...

they swear by it






EDIT:
I am not a Cadillac man, but with each of their iteration to chase the germans from the late 90s up until now... i must admit that this time around more than ever, i am very impressed and believe they have a winning formula... (they already have years ago, but customers' habits are very hard to break when the competition is always fierce on both sides).

This thing looks really good:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-official-debut/?ftag=CAD-03-10aaj8j

 

[05XR8]

I dig it. Certainly could be a market for Cadillac, if it went racing here. Besides, as I mentioned before, the brand should have been sold here a long time ago.
https://www.speedcafe.com/torquecafe/are-these-cadillacs-hsv-replacements/

 

[ProjectWHaT]

Some more detailed information



CT4-V Blackwing

https://www.motor1.com/news/485194/2022-cadillac-ct4-v-blackwing-specs/

The Blackwing ditches the base CT4-V's turbo-four for a twin-turbocharged 3.6-liter V6 instead. That’s the same engine (without the two turbos) found on larger GM vehicles like the Chevrolet Blazer and Cadillac XT6. But with new titanium connecting rods, a revised crankshaft, and a few other minor tweaks, this setup helps the Blackwing model achieve an impressive 472 hp and 445 pound-feet (602 newton-meters). All that extra oomph pairs with either a six-speed manual transmission or a 10-speed automatic, with power sent to the rear wheels.

That allows the CT4-V to hit 60 miles per hour in 3.8 seconds with the automatic transmission, on to an impressive top speed of 189 miles per hour (304 kilometers per hour). The manual transmission will likely make this car slightly slower to 60, but probably not by much. And like the larger CT5-V Blackwing, the CT4-V gets exclusive Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires measuring in at 255/35R18 up front and 275/35R18 in the rear. That new rubber wraps around a trim-exclusive set of 18-inch wheels and optional carbon ceramic brakes.

The CT4-V also adopts the latest iteration of GM's highly lauded Magnetic Ride Control. Version 4.0 improves the front and rear suspension setup by adding hollow stabilizer bars and higher-rate bushings, which makes the CT4-V Blackwing more capable when in Sport or Track driving modes, but comfortable on the road in the standard Tour driving mode. Both the CT4-V and CT5-V Blackwing models also get an electronic limited-slip rear differential.

The Cadillac CT4-V starts $59,990 before options, which makes it only a few thousand dollars more expensive than the RS3 ($56,200) and CLA 45 ($54,800).

CT5-V Blackwing

https://www.motor1.com/news/484707/2022-cadillac-ct5-v-blackwing-specs/

Borrowing the supercharged 6.2-liter V8 from the CTS-V – albeit with significant upgrades – the CT5-V Blackwing pumps out an absurd 668 horses (498 kW) and 659 pound-feet (893 newton-meters). That allows it to hit 60 in just 3.7 seconds and continue on to a top speed of around 200 miles per hour (322 kilometers per hour).

Although the CT5-V Blackwing uses the same supercharged V8 as its predecessor, the modifications are plentiful. The CT5 has a larger supercharger (1.7 liters, to be exact), new pulleys, aluminum cylinder heads, titanium intake valves, and 46-percent better airflow. And for the pursuits, there is a manual transmission. A Tremec six-speed manual comes standard on the CT5-V Blackwing (as well as the CT4-V Blackwing), with features like no-lift shift and rev-matching. The optional gearbox is a 10-speed automatic that Cadillac says shifts faster than competitors' dual-clutch transmissions. Notably, the 3.7-second sprint to 60 happens with the autobox, while the manual will be a touch slower off the line.

Underneath, the CT5-V Blackwing adopts GM's fourth-generation Magnetic Ride Control system. Already one of our favorite setups, the latest version includes upgrades to the front and rear suspension systems (hollow stabilizer bars, higher-rate bushings, etc.), improving both track handling and on-road comfort. And in both models, power travels to the rear wheels exclusively.

The CT5-V Blackwing gets standard Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires designed exclusively for this model, measuring at 275/35R19 in the front and 305/30R19 in the rear. That super-sticky rubber wraps around Blackwing-exclusive forged 19-inch wheels, and those wheels hide a set of optional carbon-ceramic brakes pads that help shed an extra 53 pounds (24 kilograms) versus the standard steel brakes.

All that performance will cost you $84,990 for the base Cadillac CT5-V Blackwing before options.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35381408/cadillac-blackwing-last-gas-v-series/

Car and Driver reports the Blackwings will be the last ICE V cars from Cadillac.

 

[Keef]

Sorry but if these are intended to be the last ICE V-cars from Caddy then I expected a lot more.

I've never been less excited for a car with 650 hp. The only thing exciting about how it looks is the wide tires. Besides that both cars look exceptionally boring - the CT4 actually worse than the ATS-V and the CT5 somehow less intimidating than the CTS-V. No hood bulge or vent, and the car's design language overall makes it look taller and skinnier. The CTS-V was a very low-slung and wide stanced car, looked like an absolute battleship. This thing look pedestrian. And it's in white which should be the ultimate Storm Trooper contrast and yet somehow it looks totally underwhelming.

ATS-V and CTS-V stonks just went through the roof. Cadillac is dead. I don't even know why we update this thread anymore, this company offers nothing of substance.

 

[AudiMan2011]

Remember when Blackwing was originally a 4.2 twin turbo V8 and not a nameplate slapped on the end of a performance brand like AMG Black Series?

 

[WheelmanSteve]

These look nice, but not nearly Cadillac enough. You see a Gen 1 or Gen 2 CTS coming at you, (or going away...) it can't be mistaken for anything else. These new ones have no design presence.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

After what BMW did with the M3, these don't look so bad.

 

[TexRex]

Remember when Blackwing was originally a 4.2 twin turbo V8 and not a nameplate slapped on the end of a performance brand like AMG Black Series?

I was so intrigued by that motor.

 

[ND4SPD]

Always found it weird how they decided on a twin turbo V6 for the ATS-V and now CT4-V blackwing when they could have just stuck in the Corvette's LT1 and made the same HP. Would have made for a cool American-ized version of an E92 M3.

 

[Tornado]

And it would have been lighter and more compact and more fuel efficient and sit lower and sound better and had a better rev range and not be an orphan engine and (based on how the NA 3.6 is) probably smoother.



Allegedly it was because one of the Cadillac marketing guys said it had to be a turbo 6 cylinder, because that's what BMW did; after Cadillac engineers had already been doing the work to make the Camaro SS drivetrain work.

 

[Keef]

After what BMW did with the M3, these don't look so bad.

They don't look bad at all...they just don't look like anything, which is arguably worse than being ugly. At least people talk about ugly. Both of these cars are entirely forgettable.

 

[CTznOfTime]

They don't look bad at all...they just don't look like anything, which is arguably worse than being ugly. At least people talk about ugly. Both of these cars are entirely forgettable.

I dont think they are forgettable, more like flying under the radar...

Sleeper status is exactly what we need these cars to be, just like the e39 M5...

Because they are inoffensive and handsome...

 

[Tornado]

Handsome isn't what I'd call the CT4. From most angles it's fine, if bland; but it's a pretty misshapen lump behind the rear doors.

 

[Keef]

just like the e39 M5...

That's exactly why they should not be sleepers. They aren't the M5, they're American V8 battleships. Wealthy Americans buy M5s and AMGs because they want to be subtle, but Cadillac's V developed a reputation for being loud, brash, and boldly American. The cars need to look the part. Neither of these cars are bold enough and the CT4 is downright ugly.

 

[CTznOfTime]

That's exactly why they should not be sleepers. They aren't the M5, they're American V8 battleships. Wealthy Americans buy M5s and AMGs because they want to be subtle, but Cadillac's V developed a reputation for being loud, brash, and boldly American. The cars need to look the part. Neither of these cars are bold enough and the CT4 is downright ugly.

Interestingly enough, and while I agree mostly with your analysis, where we differ in opinion is:
1) I think both of them look bold enough, loud and brash, and
2) both of them look quite handsome compared to the competition...

Finally For once I believe Cadillac has struck the perfect balance between pretty and bold design...

I am very happy with Cadillac for what they have done here... For their effort the past 20 years, I think and must recognize they have finally achieved what they set out to do....

 

[Tornado]

Finally achieved? These are reskins of something they built five years ago.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Finally achieved? These are reskins of something they built five years ago.

Really?
Has it been?

I don't know the details, but I thought this pair of CT4 and CT5 were first revealed less than 2 years ago with the smaller engines and now finally with the appropriate amount of power...

I could be wrong, but these are brand new architecture no ?

No matter what, I think the blackwing trim presented here are on point, for once I would not have reservations or hesitation to get one, had I have the resources myself...

 

[Tornado]

The CT5 versus CTS is a new car like the 370z was to the 350z. It might be somewhat different to the CTS-V in practice because it's not completely the same underneath and they put a bit of effort into making the Blackwing more powerful than the older car, but it's still on the same platform and I'm sure that a ton of drivetrain/suspension parts carried directly over even beyond the engines and transmissions. The ATS and CTS already shared a ton of stuff in that regard anyway (as far as I can tell from upgrading the rear suspension in mine the entire rear suspension is identical down to the part numbers), and I'm guessing they will also share it with the two new cars.



The CT4 is so lightly changed over the ATS that I wouldn't be surprised if the ATS doors could bolt onto the CT4. Cadillac detuned the base engine for some reason, replaced the snorty V6 with a pickup truck engine, and gave it a new transmission the Camaro has already had for two years; but otherwise it's the same. It's like Deville vs DTS. The biggest difference is that they didn't make a coupe this time.

 

[Keef]

The biggest difference is that they didn't make a coupe this time.

Which is unfortunate. I see ATS coupes around town all the time and they're the best looking coupe in its segment. I would buy one of those before I got any of the European competition.

 

[Tornado]

Yeah but then you'll always be riddled with doubt over whether you should have gotten that 996 Targa instead.

 

[Keef]

Yeah but then you'll always be riddled with doubt over whether you should have gotten that 996 Targa instead.

A Targa is like the $20k+ version of "the answer is always Miata".