The Camaro is Back: Year 2007

[Onikaze]

I just had to say.

I've watched a STOCK C5 Corvette, not even a Z06 walk an Exige around the Nurburgring, and then due to that big stonkin engine, after keeping well ahead of the Exige, it disappeared down the Dottinger-Hohe straight.

The ONLY reason you don't like Corvettes is because they are pooh poohed on by british car rags, and you assume that everythign they say about them must be true, well, that and the ridiculous price you have to pay for one over there.

Editops, didnt' see Swifts hammer drop.

Also, I've seen a SWEET dropped '69 I think Camaro that was set up for the track with just some big tires, and a suspension swap that will flat out walk all sorts of modern sports cars.

Don't doubt them, for the amount of money you save on a Camaro versus something else, you can turn the Camaro into an OBSCENELY fast car, in the 1/4, or in the twisties.

I know, my dads 1980 with a 383 was so fast that the only time I rode in it, a mile went by way too fast for my liking and I asked to be let out.

He later killed himself in it, a 1/4 mile from the stoplight he always told my mother he would kill them from, at the train bridge up the highway.

Police estimated his impact speeds at 160+...

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

I thought this thread died a while ago. Anyways, I would like to see the Camaro come back because I do think GM need something to compete with the new Ford Mustang. Pony WAR!!!

 

[Layla's Keeper]

I think it's best to borrow an old slogan to best describe why the Camaro is so loved.

Ask the man who owns one.

I OWN a 3rd gen Firebird (Camaro's twin brother) and have driven 2nd and 4th gen F-bodies at speed. I know their capabilities pretty well - especially around the following road courses.

Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course in Lexington, Ohio. (2.5mile)

Nelson's Ledges in Nelson, Ohio. (2mile)

I'll tell you right now, the 4th gen Camaro/Firebird pair have awesome levels of grip, especially on the smoother sections of track (which Mid-Ohio, being a patchwork of good asphalt, bad asphalt, and concrete, doesn't have much of). Their brakes are good and grabby, and turn in is solid.

There feels to be about a 1/2 turn too much lock to lock, making Madness (the esses section at the #4 grandstand at Mid-Ohio) very tricky to negotiate quickly without quick handwork. However, thanks to the 350's torque, if you don't have quick hands you can get on the brakes early, take the first two turns of Madness slowly, and then accelerate like mad into the last right hand corner. The car WILL STICK through that downhill 90 right.

Though if you're a little gunshy you can always trailbrake through it. The car has very little nosedive under braking, so you don't unload the rear suspension (the way I've found that Mustangs, Starions, and MkII Supras often do) and create a snap oversteer situation on turn-in.

The 4th gen Camaro/Firebird really comes into its own, though, in sweeping esses. The car stays very flat in transitions (save for a little bit of tail roll to plant the tires, very common in straight axle rwd cars) and the nose always goes where you point it. When you get going beyond the tires' grip, the car begins a smooth four wheel drift away from the apex that is easily corrected by feathering the throttle. F-bodies are actually unique in that they're driven with the engine, not in spite of it.

The weak point for the F-body, though, is constant and decreasing radius corners, especially ones that are off camber or unsmooth. Constant radius corners give the car fits as it develops throttle-on understeer (common in a car of its bulk). Decreasing radius corners bring out the car's trailing throttle oversteer as it unloads the inside rear corner, causing the rear to "skip" free.

This is where the F-body's "bad handling" comes from. The combination of an unloaded rear-end creating lift throttle oversteer and a slow ratio rack & pinion means that a Camaro or Firebird is hard to catch when it starts to go around.

I know this all to well as the first time I took a Trans-Am WS6 through the Keyhole at Mid-Ohio, I spun it by lifting the throttle to bring the nose back on the racing line, thus unloading the rear suspension and snapping the car around.

The correct thing to do with an F-body is to feather the throttle, weighting the tail and sliding the car ever so slightly. However, this chews up tires quickly as they are large cars.

The 2nd gens, being older and having leaf springs instead of coils at the rear, and having recirculating ball steering instead of rack & pinion, and being slightly taller with less tire and less sophisticated suspension, have a lot more body roll and are even trickier to catch when oversteering. That coupled with the drum brakes, 4spd trans, and smogged out engines made the 2nd gens very uninspiring drives.

My 3rd gen Firebird is a V6, so I'll spare you tales of lack of power (though never a cheaper engine to maintain than the Corporate 2.8L V6) but thanks to a low low center of gravity, a wide track, and a good amount of tire at all corners, it's very nimble for its heft and has very good brakes.

It doesn't have the lift throttle oversteer of the 4th gen, but has lift throttle understeer instead, preferring to power through a corner after early turn in. Eats tires and I've even had to bleed the brake lines because that sort of driving can BOIL brake fluid if you do it for too long, but it's a joy to drive once you get it right.

Now, that's a first person perspective from a man with racing experience (road and oval, sports car and open wheel) and with journalistic experience. You still want to tell me how horrible F-bodies are?

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

Good stuff Layla's Keeper! 👍 I have a 4th Gen Camaro Z28 and love to drive it when I get the chance to. I have one small problem that concerns me whenever I drive it.

Depending on how long or far I am driving, I noticed that the engine temperature meter have this tendency to move up half way through the meter. Sometimes I get worried that it is going to overheat, but luckily it never did. Sometimes that meter would go a bit past the halfway mark and really SCARE ME!

People at www.z28.com said that it is common for a LT1 4th gen Camaro to have that kind of a problem. Cooling system and optispark if I remember correctly...Have you noticed any kind of high amount of heat as you race these F-Bodies around?

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Well, sure I noticed heat, but that was just the balaclava and firesuit. lol

But seriously, I'm a bit of a crew chief's nightmare when it comes to gauges that aren't tachometers. However, the F-bodies do run hot as there's a lot of engine in not a lot of engine compartment and the grille opening on the earlier 4th gens (which, as an LT1 owner, you have) is rather small.

It's not too much to worry about - after all, the LT1 is a stone lump of an engine when it comes to durability - but if it's truly worrying you find a local tech and have the system gone through (pressure check, thermostat, sensors, water pump, etc).

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Well, sure I noticed heat, but that was just the balaclava and firesuit. lol

But seriously, I'm a bit of a crew chief's nightmare when it comes to gauges that aren't tachometers. However, the F-bodies do run hot as there's a lot of engine in not a lot of engine compartment and the grille opening on the earlier 4th gens (which, as an LT1 owner, you have) is rather small.

It's not too much to worry about - after all, the LT1 is a stone lump of an engine when it comes to durability - but if it's truly worrying you find a local tech and have the system gone through (pressure check, thermostat, sensors, water pump, etc).

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

The grille openins is kinda small on the earlier 4th gens. I think the correct name for that is the Condensor, the metel grille that is placed before the coolant tank. These 4th gen have this plastic fin thingy that guides the air from the bottom and send them to the Condensor. I really don't like the plastic fin thingy because everytime when I go down a dip I would hear that large scrape sound from underneath. It makes me think that I really scratched the bottom of the car and also get people to look at me like as if I drive too fast on dips.

Back on topic!

If the Camaro is to return, I have a feeling that it will be a 6.0 Liters with 375HP and 400ish pounds of torque. The reason for this is because of how the past Camaros always have less HP than the Corvettes. If the C6 have 400HP, the Camaro got to have less, so that it can also be cheaper like it always been.

mmmm Maybe the new Camaro SS can have 450HP if Chevy think its neccessary!

 

[Joey D]

I would say you are right, they will put the 6.0L from the GTO in a Camaro, if they bring it back. And do you think if they bring back the Camaro...you think they will make a Firebird/Trans Am too? I don't know since there is no talk what so ever around GM.

 

[Onikaze]

I've heard several people say they would like to see the Firebird come back as a seperate car from the Camaro.

Bring it back on a slightly longer solstice platform with a V-6, and a Supercharged V-6 for the top end model, make it more of a nimble handling car, as the Solstice is already quite the turner, give it closer to 300 Hp and it would be a wicked little car.

I can't say I don't love the idea of a V-6 Kappa platformed car.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

I would say you are right, they will put the 6.0L from the GTO in a Camaro, if they bring it back. And do you think if they bring back the Camaro...you think they will make a Firebird/Trans Am too? I don't know since there is no talk what so ever around GM.

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

I don't really think they will bring back the firebird because its a Pontiac. I don't think Pontiac is a popular name when it is compared to Chevrolet. Even me, I would rather buy a Chevy over a Pontiac brand any day.

I always see hear and see people talk about Camaros more often than Firebirds too. I don't know why it seems that Firebirds aren't as popular as Camaros, except that Firebirds are ugly in my opinion.

Errr, to simply put it....Camaro name is simply better than Firebird/Trans Am name.

 

[Dave A]

The Camaro name is farfar better than the Firebird and TransAm names and thats coming from the other side of the pond.

 

[JCE]

If GM pulls a Ford and retro's the Camaro I will throw up. As a former Camaro owner it would insult me personally if they did that. And I do think GM should at least bring back the Trans Am also...it does have some history too ya know. I actually prefer the WS6 TA over the SS Camaro...it just looks meaner.

 

[Joey D]

They will more then likely do the retro thing, because that is what is hot with the market right now.

 

[Driftster]

Yeah..more than likely..
But now they're going to have problems getting the thing to not look to "charger" esque...

since right now it's got those pronounced rear haunch fenders....like the older maro's that they would more than likely choose to redo

 

[Onikaze]

Honestly, I didn't like the 4th gen Camaros at all.

The 3rd Gens were ok.

2nd Gens were pretty cool except for a couple of really odd body styling issues.

1st Gens have a certain proportioned shape that just looks great.

If they retro it, pick up on the 1st Gens proportions, and make an edgier looking new version of it, I'd be pleased as punch.

Unless I saw an awesome modern concept that wasn't a randomly aero'D blob, or a pointy dart looking homage to the 4th gens, I don't see how they could make it look better than those renderings floating around.

Oh, Short Front/Rear overhangs, please...one of the biggest turnoffs to me about the 4th gen was the looooooongggggggg nose in front of the wheels...just not a good look.

 

[Swift]

Oh, Short Front/Rear overhangs, please...one of the biggest turnoffs to me about the 4th gen was the looooooongggggggg nose in front of the wheels...just not a good look.

Not very practical either.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

They will more then likely do the retro thing, because that is what is hot with the market right now.

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

I agree with that. 👍 People are liking the new Mustang and GM must do the same to bring out some competition. Maybe they can even release out a new retro looking Camaro with more horsepower and torque for the same price as a Mustang GT! 👍 That would be a good one!

 

[super cirrus]

Not very practical either.

Nothing about it was practical. But it sure is fun to drive.

 

[JCE]

Actually, that is more commonly refered to as a Tractor Trailer or 18-Wheeler. Besides, if an F-150 is not a truck, than what is it? A coupe? Or, for the extended cab models, sedans? Does that make the Jeep Wrangler a convertible or a hardtop? Maybe a club racer because it has a rollbar and half doors.

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!! That is the greatest post I've read in a month. That made me laugh outloud! Fantastic post. Haha, brilliant.

 

[JCE]

Phew....alright Swift you got it buddy. Thats a big 10-4!

Anywho there isn't really any talk of bringing back the Camaro, the GTO has the market right now. And frankly it seems to be working, the GTO isn't bad, needs a redesign though since its built for Aussie roads, not American roads. Fast as hell though.

GM should of designed a GTO from scrach AND imported Holdens AS Holdens to the US. (The new V8 Impala should be RWD too damn it) I would of probably bought a Clubsport or Monaro if it was unmolested and just like the Aussie version (minus the RHD since the US is rediculously LHD). The only thing I don't like about the 04/05 GTO is the idiotic Pontiac shaped grilles. A Monaro or HSV "GTO" is one of the best looking cars to come along in a long time in my opinion. For under 50,000.00 GBP ($88,392.04 USD), the best looking cars for me is the Monaro and BMW 6-series. I plan on buying a 04/05 GTO after my Focus gets paid off...and I WILL order the correct front and rear end body pieces along with the correct badges from Australia.

 

[Joey D]

The problem with Holdens is that they aren't designed for American roads, the suspension is so overly beefed up. I guess they design the Holdens so they can go through the Outback, although Michigan roads are close to that.

They will be redesigning the GTO, thats pretty much a given. GM just wanted a Mustang competitor and they didn't have enough time to properly design one...so they just rebadged.

 

[skip0110]

As I understand Zeta is being designed in Australia and will be the underpinnings of both the next GTO and the next Monaro (as well as a Chevy "performance coupe").

Personally I like the beefy bits underneath; it's why you still see '60s cars on the road and why they were so easy to hot-rod: they were over-engineered.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

They will be redesigning the GTO, thats pretty much a given. GM just wanted a Mustang competitor and they didn't have enough time to properly design one...so they just rebadged.

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

Is the GTO even doing well right now with sales figures?

 

[niky]

Depends. They haven't broken the 10k mark for 2005. Disappointing, since the Corvette's already sold over 20,000 units this year.

 

[Joey D]

The GTO is selling decently, they could be selling better but its doing decently like I said.

 

[Onikaze]

Isn't Zeta still dead?

Long live Sigma-Lite/Kappa!

 

[DrogoGTO]

Today I sold my 95 z28. I am kind of sad to see it go, but the thing was a nightmare to maintain.

It died of a crushed oil pan injury, that led to dramatic heart failure. Having put nearly 1/2 the cost of the car into repairs since buying it I decided that its better to let someone else deal with it.

Since it was such a fun car I would definately consider an '07, as long as GM does a better job with it than the GTO. The GTO is fun to drive, but its far too quiet and reserved for me.
Plus, the shifter stinks.

The main point that GM needs to get right is the sound. Mine simply had a flowmaster setup and sounded unbeleivable, but the current GTO and Corvette simply sound muted, almost choked.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

Today I sold my 95 z28. I am kind of sad to see it go, but the thing was a nightmare to maintain.

It died of a crushed oil pan injury, that led to dramatic heart failure. Having put nearly 1/2 the cost of the car into repairs since buying it I decided that its better to let someone else deal with it.

Since it was such a fun car I would definately consider an '07, as long as GM does a better job with it than the GTO. The GTO is fun to drive, but its far too quiet and reserved for me.
Plus, the shifter stinks.

The main point that GM needs to get right is the sound. Mine simply had a flowmaster setup and sounded unbeleivable, but the current GTO and Corvette simply sound muted, almost choked.

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

How much mileage did you Z28 have before you sold it?

Looking for a new car is sure fun and exciting! Maybe you should try the LS1 Camaros if you don't like the GTO right now. 👍

 

[DrogoGTO]

It had....... lets see......... probably 180,000 miles. I drove the life out of it for sure.

 

[Joey D]

I don't know if anyone posted this but here is some news.

Chevy Camaro Concept Slated for '06 Detroit Show, '09 Debut
Source: www.edmunds.com, www.gminsidenews.com

DETROIT — Chevrolet plans to take the wraps off a concept Camaro at the 2006 Detroit auto show in January.

Also, Inside Line has learned the automaker is evaluating proposals to revive the classic performance-car nameplate in 2009-2010 on a new low-cost rear-wheel-drive platform.

Among the scenarios under discussion inside General Motors is the development of a lower-cost version of the Sigma rear-drive platform that underpins the Cadillac CTS and STS sedans. Another proposal would take the new rear-drive platform that's being developed in Australia for the next-generation Holden Commodore sedan and spin off a low-cost variant for North America.

GM planners are said to have targeted several body styles for the Chevy and Pontiac brands on a new rear-drive platform, including a sport sedan, a sporty coupe and a convertible. The Camaro and GTO badges could be used on those vehicles, according to company sources.

Across town, Chrysler is said to be preparing a concept Dodge Challenger for the '06 Detroit show, to test the market for a proposed two-door performance car it wants to introduce around 2008-2009 as a potential competitor to the Ford Mustang.

What this means to you: Guess it was just a matter of time and environmental awareness — the original definition of muscle cars doesn't fit well with new perceptions of what's best for the world...could there be a "green" muscle car in our future?


Congrats Camaro fans.

 

[McLaren'sAngel]

It had....... lets see......... probably 180,000 miles. I drove the life out of it for sure.

Hiya! Meow! (='.'=)

Wow... you really like....drained the life out of it! My 1993 Camaro Z28 only have about 115K on it right now.


Blazin, that is some news that will start up a stir! Maybe they might talk about Firebirds too.