The Grammar & Spelling Thread

[Schwartz]

I have decided to make this thread in order to satisfy my curiosities about grammar, punctuation, and spelling. If you have a question about grammar, spelling, punctuation, or just about the English language in general feel free to post it here. Let this also be a thread to discuss grammar and language (for example the differences between American and British).

Before anyone else posts, let me lay down some ground rules for this thread, because a thread about 'boring' subjects such as grammar can get derailed very easily.

1. You are not to criticise others for mistakes in spelling, grammar, etc. While it may be ironic that a grammar mistake is made in a grammar thread, I will not let this thread be overtaken by trolling grammar nazis.

2. This will not be a place to post examples of bad grammar you find in the forums and laugh at other people about it in here.

3. You will try to keep this thread as on-topic as possible. While it is okay to go off-topic in a conversation, please finish your conversation quickly as to not derail the whole thread.

4. You will obey all AUP rules. (No suprise there, eh?)

Okay, I'll start it off:

I once saw someone on the forums say "an union." While I know the rule is that if the noun starts with a vowel, you use "an" and if the word starts with a consonant you use "a." Is this an exception or does everyone always say it the wrong way without ever noticing?

 

[mattythedog]

Yeah, I guess that is an exception. It's definitely isn't right.

 

[Ross]

It's an exception I guess.

I have got one.

Newsreaders often say something like "This man was stabbed in London" or something similar. He wasn't stabbed in London, he was stabbed in the chest or the arm or the leg or wherever.

 

[Solid Lifters]

We already have one of these. Try doing a search for it.

 

[Schwartz]

We already have one of these. Try doing a search for it.

You search it then. I couldn't find anything. If you want to tell me to search, the least you could do is actually find the thread. I've looked everywhere, high and low, but I couldn't find any thread remotely similar to this.

 

[AOS-]

I once saw someone on the forums say "an union." While I know the rule is that if the noun starts with a vowel, you use "an" and if the word starts with a consonant you use "a." Is this an exception or does everyone always say it the wrong way without ever noticing?

"A union" sounds correct to me.

Newsreaders often say something like "This man was stabbed in London" or something similar. He wasn't stabbed in London, he was stabbed in the chest or the arm or the leg or wherever.

They have to condense their words to fit in the header spaces. Being stabbed in a body part is specific but if it's not the important part of the article, then it doesn't need to be included. By using "in London" rather than what you suggested, the reader already has a better idea of the situation otherwise.

"Stabbed in arm" tells us:
1)Person was stabbed in the arm.

"Stabbed in London" tells us:
1)Person was stabbed.
2)It happened in London.

It's also easier for the reader to relate to when a location is stated. The person being stabbed could have been any one anywhere in the world, but by putting in the location, local readers can quickly pick up on it and have an immediate interest. "London? I live nearby! I better read this!"

 

[Ross]

OK then, add on after "stabbed in the arm" "within London"

 

[Schwartz]

To elaborate on AOS-'s point:

I believe it is correct to say he was 'A man was stabbed in London.' And yes, of course it is correct to say 'A man was stabbed in the arm. However, it is incorrect to say 'A man was stabbed in the London' or 'A man was stabbed in arm.'

But when you get to newspaper headings, all sentence structure and grammar goes out the window, leading to possible confusions between 'Man stabbed in London' and 'Man stabbed in arm.'
What? Where is the town of 'Arm?' I have never heard of it.

My favorite newspaper heading is (this is real by the way):

Iraqi Head Seeks Arms

 

[AOS-]

It's wrong, but this is newspaper publishing, not story-telling.

It's not about the grammar with newspaper headings, they word it so that captures your attention if you so much as glance at it.

If I was to flash a properly structure sentence at you, you might be able to pick up a few words, but if you didn't read it all in time because of all the words, you wouldn't have picked up on the gist of it, not have an interest, ignored it, and the writers wouldn't have failed at their job.

If I flashed a sentenced condensed into 4 words, you'd more likely be able to read all 4 words and picture the presented scenario. That's the point of headers; to catch your attention.

 

[Ross]

It is more proper to say "A man is stabbed in the arm".

That newspaper headline cracked me up though.

 

[Schwartz]

OK then, add on after "stabbed in the arm" "within London"

Then in that case, most news papers say:

'London man stabbed in arm'

Yes, it sounds weird, but that is how newspapers (at least where I live) say it.

 

[Ross]

Better than "stabbed in London" but still not correct.

 

[Schwartz]

Better than "stabbed in London" but still not correct.

Not correct, but as AOS- said, the headlines are made to catch your attention. The more condensed it is, the more likely it will catch your attention.

 

[Moglet]

It's wrong, but this is newspaper publishing, not story-telling.

Aren't they the same thing these days anyway?

 

[AOS-]

You must know all about telling stories that are thrilling.

 

[gjeff12]

Okay, I'll start it off:

I once saw someone on the forums say "an union." While I know the rule is that if the noun starts with a vowel, you use "an" and if the word starts with a consonant you use "a." Is this an exception or does everyone always say it the wrong way without ever noticing?

I do believe the rule is based on pronunciation as opposed to spelling. For example you would not say "a hour" because it is pronounced similarly to the word "owl" which has a vowel sound. "Union" is pronounced as though it is spelled like "you" and therefore it is not a vowel sound.

One thing I always wonder about though, is how you would order double punctuation. Like in a quote would it be (".) or (.")? Iknow that question and exclaimation marks are placed based on whether or not they were part of the quote but I am not sure about periods and commas.

 

[Schwartz]

I do believe the rule is based on pronunciation as opposed to spelling. For example you would not say "a hour" because it is pronounced similarly to the word "owl" which has a vowel sound. "Union" is pronounced as though it is spelled like "you" and therefore it is not a vowel sound.

One thing I always wonder about though, is how you would order double punctuation. Like in a quote would it be (".) or (.")? Iknow that question and exclaimation marks are placed based on whether or not they were part of the quote but I am not sure about periods and commas.

I think it is inside, but that is one I have been wondering about as well. This just doesn't look right to me:

"The chicken crossed the road".

This looks much more clean to me:

"The Chicken crossed the road."

 

[AOS-]

I punctuate if it's part of the quote. I'm actually unsure when I would ever do otherwise.

 

[BobK]

If I saw "an union" in print my first thought would be that they misspelled "onion". Generally it does depend on how the first syllable is pronounced, so it would be "a union" or "a uniform" but "an unholy alliance"

 

[Liquid]

Newsreaders often say something like "This man was stabbed in London" or something similar. He wasn't stabbed in London, he was stabbed in the chest or the arm or the leg or wherever.

It's possibly misleading, but correct. You're confusing the location of the stab wound with the location of the stabbing. In this case, both take 'in' as their preposition. Your example isn't particularly misleading though; excluding the location of the stab wound doesn't create any ambiguity. Compare; Where did you buy that game?

I bought it from HMV in Chester.

I bought it in Chester.

Both are correct. There are two locations relative to the answer. The first is complete and leaves no confusion as to absolutely where the game was brought. The second is also correct, but simply doesn't tell you which shop.

You are referrring to crash blossoms. Misleading, shortened headlines, for example, 'Red Tape Holds Up New Bridge'.

---

There is a debate about this, but apart from actual grammatical mistakes, which I will come to if this thread takes off, I find it annoying how people lump spelling, punctuation and grammar under the title 'grammar'.

This sentense iz grammatikaly korrect, butt teh spelings aer not. Spelling.

He would of done that, if he could of done that. Grammar - Confusing a genative/dative preposition for an auxiliary verb to form the subjunctive! It's 'have' not 'of'. People write 'of' because it sounds similar to the contracted form; would've, could've and so on, which are common in speech.

this sentence is both grammatically correct and has the correct spellings but lacks punctuation which this relative clause really does need - Punctuation.

 

[Ellis]

I once saw someone on the forums say "an union." While I know the rule is that if the noun starts with a vowel, you use "an" and if the word starts with a consonant you use "a." Is this an exception or does everyone always say it the wrong way without ever noticing?

If you type it as it sounds it makes sense

"A 'you-ni-on'. Where as if it was said as it is spelt then 'A un-i-on', then it is wrong. It is all about the sound not the spelling

 

[Techy]

If you type it as it sounds it makes sense

"A 'you-ni-on'. Where as if it was said as it is spelt then 'A un-i-on', then it is wrong. It is all about the sound not the spelling

That isn't always accepted in writing. Take the two words "lay" and "laid". Both words sound pretty much the same in all sentence scenarios, but both are used differently. "Lay" is an infinitive simple present (exception of 3rd person singular), while "laid" is the past participle. They do share the same meaning: "to put down".

I always lay down the covers for the table every morning.

She laid down her wrench when she reached for the lug nut.

You have probably seen this in part of Commonly Misused Words. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyways.

 

[W3H5]

(Sober) English teacher in the hizzouse!

I once saw someone on the forums say "an union." While I know the rule is that if the noun starts with a vowel, you use "an" and if the word starts with a consonant you use "a." Is this an exception or does everyone always say it the wrong way without ever noticing?

There are two types of vowel commonly used in English, excluding when 'y' is used as one.

There are 'looooooooooonnnnnnnnnnng vowels' and 'short vowels'.

A short vowel sound is the phonetic sound of the letter; a as in apple. A long vowel may be a as in ace. Same vowel, different sound.

Your example of 'union' would come down to actual sound. The word 'union' has a 'you' sound as the vowel is long and sounds like the name of the letter rather than the phonetic 'uh' sound which it produces in the form of a short vowel.

I'm so tempted to post a Grammar Nazi meme in this thread!

this sentence is both grammatically correct and has the correct spellings but lacks punctuation which this relative clause really does need - Punctuation.

Punctuation forms part of grammar in my book, therefore the above sentence is incorrect due to the lack of punctuation, according to Shem. You did notice the - and . in your sentence, right?

 

[Liquid]

That isn't always accepted in writing. Take the two words "lay" and "laid". Both words sound pretty much the same in all sentence scenarios, but both are used differently. "Lay" is an infinitive simple present (exception of 3rd person singular), while "laid" is the past participle. They do share the same meaning: "to put down"

Correct. But not knowing the difference between the simple present and the past participle is very infuriating. It's worse if the simple past and perfect past are different. I have a friend who says things like "I thrown" and "I drawn", instead of "I threw" and "I drew". He refuses to acknowledge his mistake and ends up talking about free will and 'the Man'.

But the point Ellis was making is that you would use 'an' if the next word has a vowel sound, not letter.

an hour - o - vowel

a UFO - y - consonant

You will often see 'an historic' written down. This is incorrect. Because many British accents are unstressed, Hs are often dropped from the start of words. I sometimes pronounce words like this when talking quickly; "It was an 'istroic day". I say an because 'istoric starts with a vowel sound. That is just how it is in colloquial speech.

However, when written down it should always be a historic because this is how it should be written and pronounced, unless it is direct, quoted speech.

Some example unstressed pronunciations;

Written - Spoken

a historic occasion - an 'istoric occasion
a horrible car - an 'orrible car
cheese and ham - cheese 'n' 'am
an honour - an honour (Always the same)
...ing hell - ...ing 'ell (I don't know anyone who actually stresses the H in this phrase)

 

[Ellis]

So I was a teeny bit right.

 

[W3H5]

Unstressed Bri'ish accent? you gotta b 'avin' a larf, int'cha?!

 

[Liquid]

Unstressed Bri'ish accent? you gotta b 'avin' a larf, int'cha?!

I'm no' jokin', these thin's 'appen. Y'c'n go 'round the whole country 'n' find plenty 'o' people who 'ave contractions in most o' th' words they're sayin'.

 

[Techy]

Oh, makes sense now Guessing dialects can influence global grammar use as well.

 

[W3H5]

Being a Cockney I tend to be a nightmare to talk with after a few beers. I make a whole sentence sound like one word. Thank God I gave up drinking!

 

[adamp93]

What really annoys me about the historic debate is the newsreader's way of saying it; they will put the an instead of a, but then pronounce the h