The Great Camber Experiment: Stage 1 "High Speed Ring" (closed/finished/ended)

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus I've finished my testig with my DS3 how ever the G force numbers for Turn 1 are very wacky and some how Motec added 3 turns to the track?....I've confirmed it's showing the new turns on the old log files. But the G force numbers are the same as previous for T1 in the data sets 0-5 camber.
Google Doc for easy reading. it's just a text wall if I paste it in here.

Hmmm.... not sure what to do here, I don't want for you to have wasted your time but the consistency is outside of the acceptable range so I can't accept the data at this point.

I have no idea why you've got 8 corners Maybe the data got corrupted or something? You'd have to ask someone who was more familiar with the software, my understanding is basic at best.

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus trust me I understand the numbers are so far off base that they don't add up. I'll uninstall and reinstall Motec and see if that helps. I checked old log files and they are reporting 8 turns as well I also can't pull up a track map it's just a flat line so something is not working correctly in my software right now. I'll upload the ldx files to google and share them with you and you can look at them see if it's my replay data or my Motec.

 

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus trust me I understand the numbers are so far off base that they don't add up. I'll uninstall and reinstall Motec and see if that helps. I checked old log files and they are reporting 8 turns as well I also can't pull up a track map it's just a flat line so something is not working correctly in my software right now. I'll upload the ldx files to google and share them with you and you can look at them see if it's my replay data or my Motec.

Are the lap times accurate? That's my first point of concern, there are some massive swings in there that suggest there may be external elements affecting the results.

 

[Otaliema]

Are the lap times accurate? That's my first point of concern, there are some massive swings in there that suggest there may be external elements affecting the results.

The camber 6 time was the first time I picked up a ds3 in a month camber 8 I couldn't hold the line in turn 1 and turn 5 hence the slower times. They are true and correct times I was holding th best line I could as close to the driving line as I could on each lap no curb bumping in the laps.
I uninstalled and reinstalled Motec and the same things are showing up so I dunno what's going on.

 

[F1Racer68]

@DolHaus trust me I understand the numbers are so far off base that they don't add up. I'll uninstall and reinstall Motec and see if that helps. I checked old log files and they are reporting 8 turns as well I also can't pull up a track map it's just a flat line so something is not working correctly in my software right now. I'll upload the ldx files to google and share them with you and you can look at them see if it's my replay data or my Motec.

The Track Map is usually easily fixed. This is a common issue when MoTeC does not already have a track map built in, such as the High Speed Ring map. I'm not at my PC right now so I can't provide the step by step, but you can generate the map correctly using the G force numbers. Keep in mind that this method will generate a map that is based on your driving line, and so the corners may not be 100% accurate depictions.

Now, having said that, the fact that your data indicates more turns than are really there may be causing this issue as well. Even if the track layout where "corrected" you would probably see some corners that don't actually exist.

 

[DolHaus]

The camber 6 time was the first time I picked up a ds3 in a month camber 8 I couldn't hold the line in turn 1 and turn 5 hence the slower times. They are true and correct times I was holding th best line I could as close to the driving line as I could on each lap no curb bumping in the laps.
I uninstalled and reinstalled Motec and the same things are showing up so I dunno what's going on.

I am prepared to accept odd results with camber over 5.0, by that point the grip is all but gone so odd spikes are to be expected due to mechanically reduced vehicle control.
The differentials before that are what concern me, you drop nearly a second between 0.0 and 1.0 then level out slighly, then another big swing at 4.0. To me this indicates that you were unfamiliar with the track and car when starting the test, this means you were almost certainly taking dramatically different approaches to more than one corner which compromises the validity of the data.

 

[Otaliema]

I am prepared to accept odd results with camber over 5.0, by that point the grip is all but gone so odd spikes are to be expected due to mechanically reduced vehicle control.
The differentials before that are what concern me, you drop nearly a second between 0.0 and 1.0 then level out slighly, then another big swing at 4.0. To me this indicates that you were unfamiliar with the track and car when starting the test, this means you were almost certainly taking dramatically different approaches to more than one corner which compromises the validity of the data.

I'll rerun 0 camber and bring it in line with 1-3 values, with the 0 run I was not as familiar with the track as I am now and on my wheel my times are a full second lower than with the ds3.

 

[DolHaus]

I'll rerun 0 camber and bring it in line with 1-3 values, with the 0 run I was not as familiar with the track as I am now and on my wheel my times are a full second lower than with the ds3.

If you want to repeat the test on the wheel then that's cool but be aware that I can't accept fragmented data so you would have to re-run the entire experiment

 

[Otaliema]

If you want to repeat the test on the wheel then that's cool but be aware that I can't accept fragmented data so you would have to re-run the entire experiment

That's the plan for the wheel data. I did load some wheel laps into Motec and got the same wacky max G load in turn one. But the rest of the turns are fine. I'll go do a set at Solverstone and check there see if got a wa my corner as well or something is fishy at HSR on my machine.

 

[DolHaus]

That's the plan for the wheel data. I did load some wheel laps into Motec and got the same wacky max G load in turn one. But the rest of the turns are fine. I'll go do a set at Solverstone and check there see if got a wa my corner as well or something is fishy at HSR on my machine.

The other alternative is to do it the old fashioned way and use the graphs and the map 👍

 

[Otaliema]

The other alternative is to do it the old fashioned way and use the graphs and the map 👍

No useable map....

 

[ALB123]

I agree that its probably the "track map" that is all screwed up. When I first loaded my MoTeC log file(s) into the i2 software my track map showed up as a straight line!! I had to go into the software and recreate the track map by going into Track Editor and then clicking on Generate Track. Even then, it only had the basic shape of the track laid out. I then had to manually edit the track data to make sure the straights lined up with what Dolhaus defined as a straight and the turns lined up with what Dolhaus defined as a turn (corner). I've never had to do this for a course before and it was a pain in the butt, however, it was well worth it. Now, if I open up a log file from High Speed Ring it always has the course laid out properly in Track Map.

 

[DolHaus]

Mine had a map?

 

[Otaliema]

Mine had a map?

So did mine for the first 6 camber data points I loaded than when I loaded it today no map, 3 extra turns and messed up g load data in turn one

 

[Otaliema]

@ALB123 @DolHaus @ImToLegitToQuit @TurnLeft and anyone else that has used motec with HSR. Could I get the lengths for the straights and turns so I can repair my map? I think that will fix the data problem with Gforce's and turns\

To get the information. Load a replay with HSR, goto samples->Track Report-Right Click-Track editor you will see a list in the top left with the str and turn numbers, click on one, bottomish left you will see start and end distances. Let me know if it's m, ft or yards and I'll adjust mine to fit yours

 

[ImToLegitToQuit]

sorry man, i havent even used it

 

[DolHaus]

@ALB123 @DolHaus @ImToLegitToQuit @TurnLeft and anyone else that has used motec with HSR. Could I get the lengths for the straights and turns so I can repair my map? I think that will fix the data problem with Gforce's and turns

Str 0-1
Start distance: 11701 ft
End distance: 1719 ft
Section length: 2987 ft

Turn 1
Start distance: 1719 ft
End distance: 3568 ft
Section length: 1849 ft

Str 1-2
Start distance: 3568 ft
End distance: 4776 ft
Section length: 1208 ft

Turn 2
Start distance: 4776 ft
End distance: 5728 ft
Section length: 952 ft

Str 2-3
Start distance: 5728 ft
End distance: 6620 ft
Section length: 892 ft

Turn 3
Start distance: 6620 ft
End distance: 7425 ft
Section length: 805 ft

Turn 4
Start distance: 7425 ft
End distance: 8320 ft
Section length: 895 ft

Str 4-5
Start distance: 8320 ft
End distance: 10273 ft
Section length: 1953 ft

Turn 5
Start distance: 10273 ft
End distance: 11701 ft
Section length: 1429 ft

 

[F1Racer68]

Darn it @DolHaus..... you beat me. I was just firing up my laptop to get the info.....

 

[DolHaus]

Darn it @DolHaus..... you beat me. I was just firing up my laptop to get the info.....

Bwah ha ha

 

[Otaliema]

Everytime I input the numbers it changes them to what it thinks they should be I can't edit my map for HSR I can't buld one from scratch cause it still does it. Generateing the track is still giving me a flat line for the track and 8 turns and str combos. ugg I think I may have to scrub HSR for data colection unless the ld files I loaded and gav eyou asscess to @DolHaus are working on your end.

 

[DolHaus]

Everytime I input the numbers it changes them to what it thinks they should be I can't edit my map for HSR I can't buld one from scratch cause it still does it. Generateing the track is still giving me a flat line for the track and 8 turns and str combos. ugg I think I may have to scrub HSR for data colection unless the ld files I loaded and gav eyou asscess to @DolHaus are working on your end.

Just opened 70DS3.ld and it was fine, I don't want to check the whole lot so is there any particular one that is causing issue? I'm sending you a screen grab so you can check if anything basic has changed

 

[Otaliema]

Just opened 70DS3.ld and it was fine, I don't want to check the whole lot so is there any particular one that is causing issue? I'm sending you a screen grab so you can check if anything basic has changed

nothiing is diffferent from my screen to the one your sent me other than some displayed data on the right like fast lap but all file info is the same. it just wont generate a correct map for me which I think is screwing with the G force data. The lap times are fine I will go back and rerun 0.0 camber for you to level it out. but the 5+ camber times are correct.

Edit I generated teh track off a file that had the correct turns and what not alrready. got the map working and distances are still not correct but my Gload data is still fubared for turn 1 attempting to edit distances and seeing. ugg this is pita

 

[DolHaus]

nothiing is diffferent from my screen to the one your sent me other than some displayed data on the right like fast lap but all file info is the same. it just wont generate a correct map for me which I think is screwing with the G force data. The lap times are fine I will go back and rerun 0.0 camber for you to level it out. but the 5+ camber times are correct.

Ok, well get the entire test re-run using the wheel and then send me the data and I will do the analysis 👍

 

[Otaliema]

There is a god! I got the map edited slowly and surly the distances are off by 1 foot at start and finish I can't them to match your numbers precisely but that fixed the G load data I'll update the Google doc for you @DolHaus with the corrected numbers. and get that 00 camber run done. that took way longer than it should have but it's done and now hopfully it will never happen again *crossed fingers*

 

[DolHaus]

There is a god! I got the map edited slowly and surly the distances are off by 1 foot at start and finish I can't them to match your numbers precisely but that fixed the G load data I'll update the Google doc for you @DolHaus with the corrected numbers. and get that 00 camber run done. that took way longer than it should have but it's done and now hopfully it will never happen again *crossed fingers*

Just for clarification could you describe your testing process, you keep mentioning re-running 0.0 but I'm not sure what you mean?

The DS3 data that I have already seen was unacceptable on the grounds of basic consistency so I would need that whole set rerun to ensure its validity. Ideally the tests should be performed over one or two sessions, if done over two or more sessions then I would expect the driver to make sure they could match the times set in the previous session before proceeding with the rest of the test.

 

[Otaliema]

Just for clarification could you describe your testing process, you keep mentioning re-running 0.0 but I'm not sure what you mean?

The DS3 data that I have already seen was unacceptable on the grounds of basic consistency so I would need that whole set rerun to ensure its validity. Ideally the tests should be performed over one or two sessions, if done over two or more sessions then I would expect the driver to make sure they could match the times set in the previous session before proceeding with the rest of the test.

I am rerunning 0-6 now. I smoked my previous times on 0 camber and realized I know the track so well now that all previous DS3 tests are no good. technically all the data was gathered in two sessions but separated by a month and 1000 laps on a wheel so yeah. to be safe I'm covering all the inconsistent data sets and replacing them. 0-6 I think are the ones that are out there. I will than also replace the posted data for 7-10 with the corrected information.
Sorry for all the headaches on this data I wasn't expecting learning to use a wheel making me so much faster on the DS3. 1:05.701 on 0.0 camber, and on lap 1 with a bad exit from T5 on the outlap I'm leading the 0.0 camber with 1.0 at str 3-4 so it's gonna be lower much lower.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am curious about how you guys might explain some of the data that seems to conflict, at least to me.

0/0 and 3/3 have near identical lap times:

And yet 3/3 is faster in every corner but one and a higher average cornering speed:

Ignoring the stupidity in the camber thread in the general forum, there have been similar results from testing. Lap times end up equal but cornering speeds with camber were always higher. The difference was in terminal speeds, which were always higher without camber. I think you guys should be looking at terminal speeds as well. The main purpose of cornering in racing is to maximize corner exit speed and get on the throttle as early as possible and camber must be having an effect on these variables as well, otherwise cars that corner faster 5/6 times would have significantly faster lap times.

Basically it looks to me from this data, that any gains from camber through cornering are lost entirely or almost entirely in the case of 1.0/1.0 and 2.0/2.0, through entry/exit speed. Reporting on terminal speeds might help shed some light on that.

 

[Otaliema]

And my controller died lol forgot my son played angry birds for 3 hours yesterday cause it was too cold and wet to go outside. ugg.

Edit;
@Johnnypenso thats an interesting thought. I looked at 6,7,8 data and my top end was the same on all camber levels on str 0-1, but on str 2-3 it got progressivly lower with raised camber meaning acceleration was being hindered. I'll need to load up my new 0.0 run and see what it looks like.

 

[DolHaus]

I am curious about how you guys might explain some of the data that seems to conflict, at least to me.

0/0 and 3/3 have near identical lap times:

View attachment 290873


And yet 3/3 is faster in every corner but one and a higher average cornering speed:

View attachment 290874

Ignoring the stupidity in the camber thread in the general forum, there have been similar results from testing. Lap times end up equal but cornering speeds with camber were always higher. The difference was in terminal speeds, which were always higher without camber. I think you guys should be looking at terminal speeds as well. The main purpose of cornering in racing is to maximize corner exit speed and get on the throttle as early as possible and camber must be having an effect on these variables as well, otherwise cars that corner faster 5/6 times would have significantly faster lap times.

Basically it looks to me from this data, that any gains from camber through cornering are lost entirely or almost entirely in the case of 1.0/1.0 and 2.0/2.0, through entry/exit speed. Reporting on terminal speeds might help shed some light on that.

The data in its current form needs a bit of cherry-picking to remove some odd entries because we are using a relatively small data pool, one large spike has the ability to throw the averages out the window. I am waiting for @Otaliema 's data before making the adjustments (remove highest and lowest data points and average the remaining figures), once this is done the patterns should become more clear.

My current thought is that the addition of camber might be speeding up the initial transfer of load but is reducing the amount of load the tyre can sustain. I need to compare a few peoples data to check this but I expect to see the peak load occurring earlier in the corner.

There are plans to review the testing procedures once we have some comparable data from round 2, we are only looking for basic cause and effect patterns at the moment so the practical applications will have to wait until a later stage.
One thing that I was hoping to get data on in these tests was the effect on longitudinal grip but that has proven inconsistent using this methodology, a simple acceleration and deceleration test should suffice though. The effect on longitudinal grip might hold the answer to if/why exit speeds are apparently decreased. 👍

I am rerunning 0-6 now. I smoked my previous times on 0 camber and realized I know the track so well now that all previous DS3 tests are no good. technically all the data was gathered in two sessions but separated by a month and 1000 laps on a wheel so yeah. to be safe I'm covering all the inconsistent data sets and replacing them. 0-6 I think are the ones that are out there. I will than also replace the posted data for 7-10 with the corrected information.
Sorry for all the headaches on this data I wasn't expecting learning to use a wheel making me so much faster on the DS3. 1:05.701 on 0.0 camber, and on lap 1 with a bad exit from T5 on the outlap I'm leading the 0.0 camber with 1.0 at str 3-4 so it's gonna be lower much lower.

I'm glad that your consistency and speed has improved with the wheel, I've seen your recent seasonal times and they're greatly improved 👍

I often found your performance on the DS3 to be err... how do I put this... a little frustrating under testing circumstances

If you are more consistent and faster on the wheel then just give me the wheel data, I don't need multiple sources of data from the same driver, just give me the most consistent data set you have 👍

 

[Otaliema]

If you are more consistent and faster on the wheel then just give me the wheel data, I don't need multiple sources of data from the same driver, just give me the most consistent data set you have

That would be my wheel I'm running so far with in 0.600 seconds 0-3 camber I deleted the Google doc and am just filling lap times right now you can see it there.