The Great Camber Experiment: Stage 1 "High Speed Ring" (closed/finished/ended)

[Otaliema]

Do not take as a critic guys it's just that some people already jumped out saying "the more camber is better" when results are obviously VERY skewed due to banked corners that favours "weird" cambers

not all the corners there are banked and the flat turns show differing results than the banked turns. Generally lower camber worked better but still showing that some camber was better than no camber. (at least for me)

 

[Motor City Hami]

Sorry but i just wanted to point as did before me Bhowe83 , the track Twin ring Motegi Super speedway that is the perfect place for your experience, much more than HSR. I´m sure the results will speak clearly there, no matter the test driver skills.
Good luck with the test.

I agree with @praiano63 on the simplicity of testing on the Motegi oval. It will quickly show repeatable results, but only for mid-speed and high speed corners. We should test there, but also test at a place where hard braking and a sharp turn is necessary.

 

[DolHaus]

All very interesting, but i wouldn't have used a track with banked corners for testing camber, it provies skewed results... Still as first test track any is good i guess

Looking forward to next tests!

In terms of the patterns I am looking for the camber of the bends shouldn't make much difference, if I was looking for actual numbers for peak loading then I agree that the cambered bends would cause problems and irregularities but because I am instead looking for a percentage gain/loss in the cars total grip (its ability to resist lateral load) the patterns should remain constant.
Even if the data from this test isn't 100% water tight in terms of testing procedure it should still show appreciable patterns and comparison points for future tests, you can't say anything for certain unless the patterns hold true under all circumstances. 👍

I agree with @praiano63 on the simplicity of testing on the Motegi oval. It will quickly show repeatable results, but only for mid-speed and high speed corners. We should test there, but also test at a place where hard braking and a sharp turn is necessary.

Yeah I think that's where the next test is headed 👍

For the linear grip tests I think it will involve talking to the drag racing forums so we can identify a car that can perform
full power launches without shredding the tyres or squirming too much, just something that launches straight and easy. The car will then perform a 0 - maximum speed drag to collect acceleration data, once they hit the top speed they will release the throttle and allow the car to naturally decelerate until a certain MPH before hitting the brakes and coming to a stop. The Motec can deal with normal replay data so if it was to be performed at SSRX or similar track the testers wouldn't need to run full laps.

 

[Thorin Cain]

No criticism taken, your point is totally valid and a good one. I think you're spot on. But I also think running on flat tracks with the same angle of corner, lets just say at Indy would give different results. But and those results don't answer all the questions either.

A broader testing of as many variables, will in my opinion give a more complete picture. Was my point. And this just popped up while I was writing.

I agree with @praiano63 on the simplicity of testing on the Motegi oval. It will quickly show repeatable results, but only for mid-speed and high speed corners. We should test there, but also test at a place where hard braking and a sharp turn is necessary.

Completely agree! there are also the effects on adverse-camber corners to be considered too.

Oh, and

Jump in throw the car around and help with the data load cause as

said more data is good! the more @DolHaus has the easier it will be to trim the outlairs and get the median data which is the really useful data

Second that.

 

[Thorin Cain]

Sorry, been a little while but here's the next batch of results.

Data for test 9.
Car: Jaguar XKR-S '11
Track: High Speed Ring.

Camber set at: 8.0/8.0

Lap Time: 1:06.744

Lateral G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: 2.18 G ( 173.3 mph)
Turn 2: 2.31 G ( 110.5 mph)
Turn 3: -2.09 G (79.3 mph)
Turn 4: 2,02 G (76.2 mph)
Turn 5: 2.31 G (110.4 mph)

Longitudinal G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: N/A
Turn 2: -2.22 G
Turn 3: -1.77 G
Turn 4: -1.68 G
Turn 5: -2.15 G

And my penultimate set...

Data for test 10.
Car: Jaguar XKR-S '11
Track: High Speed Ring.

Camber set at: 9.0/9.0

Lap Time: 1:07.217

Lateral G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: 2.18 G (166.4 mph)
Turn 2: 2.30 G (109,8 mph)
Turn 3: -1.88 G (83.1 mph)
Turn 4: 1.86 G (82.0 mph)
Turn 5: 2.33 G (114.3 mph)

Longitudinal G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: N/A
Turn 2: -2.25 G
Turn 3: -1.76 G
Turn 4: -1.21 G
Turn 5: -1.65 G

I shall return later to finish of test 11, after I get my nerve back. Sleep time for us night owls, have a good one everybody. (Mine's a hot cocoa!)

 

[Otaliema]

I feel bad I haven't logged more Laps on this been busy setting up aero testing and tuning seasonals I'll get to a new set soon as I can get an hour on the ps3

 

[Thorin Cain]

Right, I'm putting the notes up front this time purely because the results you are about to read make little sense, to me at least. But they are what they are. I set up the test as normal, track settings on real, driving aids only abs-1, CSS=2 and began the test(Forgot to load previous ghost) first lap was very poor, so was the second, third was a train wreck, then lap 4 this happened...

Data for test 11.
Car: Jaguar XKR-S '11
Track: High Speed Ring.

Camber set at: 10.0/10.0

Lap Time: 1:06.896..

Lateral G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: 2.33 G (171.9mph)
Turn 2: 2.17 G (119.0 mph)
Turn 3: -2.02 G (87.8 mph)
Turn 4: 1.91 G (85.4 mph)
Turn 5: 2.48 G (122.8 mph)

Longditudinal G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: N/A
Turn 2: -2.06 G
Turn 3: -2.10 G
Turn 4: -1.16 G
Turn 5: -2.00 G

I ran another half a dozen laps and couldn't get close again, Average lap was about 1:07.1xx. So I came out, re-checked the settings for the track, aids and car, just in case I'd changed something and hadn't noticed. Nope, all as it should be. Watched the replay to make sure I hadn't done anything and was happy it was a clean lap. All I can say is it's just one of those laps, I (finally!) managed to put a lap together with no mistakes in turns 3,4 & 5. We'll have to put that down to pure luck....and I suppose also running more laps in this car round here than I've done in GT5 and 6 combined.

If you think we should discount this one on the account of luck, let me know and I'll re-run the test:tup:

Not sure how much more of this the poor jag can handle.....

It's looking a bit sad, not to mention a little worse for wear.

Don't worry @DolHaus, she'll be fine. The guys at GT Auto will have her right as rain in no time:tup:

Before I forget....do you want the car back now? Or can I go and see what it's like on real race tracks?

 

[Otaliema]

Before I forget....do you want the car back now? Or can I go and see what it's like on real race tracks?

I'm sure he won't notice a few hundred more km on it

 

[DolHaus]

Right, I'm putting the notes up front this time purely because the results you are about to read make little sense, to me at least. But they are what they are. I set up the test as normal, track settings on real, driving aids only abs-1, CSS=2 and began the test(Forgot to load previous ghost) first lap was very poor, so was the second, third was a train wreck, then lap 4 this happened...

Data for test 11.
Car: Jaguar XKR-S '11
Track: High Speed Ring.

Camber set at: 10.0/10.0

Lap Time: 1:06.896..

Lateral G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: 2.33 G (171.9mph)
Turn 2: 2.17 G (119.0 mph)
Turn 3: -2.02 G (87.8 mph)
Turn 4: 1.91 G (85.4 mph)
Turn 5: 2.48 G (122.8 mph)

Longditudinal G-Force Max Peak Load.

Turn 1: N/A
Turn 2: -2.06 G
Turn 3: -2.10 G
Turn 4: -1.16 G
Turn 5: -2.00 G

I ran another half a dozen laps and couldn't get close again, Average lap was about 1:07.1xx. So I came out, re-checked the settings for the track, aids and car, just in case I'd changed something and hadn't noticed. Nope, all as it should be. Watched the replay to make sure I hadn't done anything and was happy it was a clean lap. All I can say is it's just one of those laps, I (finally!) managed to put a lap together with no mistakes in turns 3,4 & 5. We'll have to put that down to pure luck....and I suppose also running more laps in this car round here than I've done in GT5 and 6 combined.

If you think we should discount this one on the account of luck, let me know and I'll re-run the test:tup:

Not sure how much more of this the poor jag can handle.....View attachment 272504
It's looking a bit sad, not to mention a little worse for wear.

Don't worry @DolHaus, she'll be fine. The guys at GT Auto will have her right as rain in no time:tup:

Before I forget....do you want the car back now? Or can I go and see what it's like on real race tracks?

You can keep that one, it'll cost me more to straighten it out than it will to build a new one, just give me an hour to grab the VIN plates for "insurance purposes"

 

[Otaliema]

@DolHaus I saved my diffacult car challenge that @TurnLeft put to me if you want the gforce data. 10.0 camber on ss tires on 903 hp car lol was a bit hard to drive to say

 

[TurnLeft]

@DolHaus I saved my diffacult car challenge that @TurnLeft put to me if you want the gforce data. 10.0 camber on ss tires on 903 hp car lol was a bit hard to drive to say

I feel a little silly that I did not save my best lap for gforce data. , Sorry about that.

 

[Otaliema]

I feel a little silly that I did not save my best lap for gforce data. , Sorry about that.

Bah just get another glass of wine *which you need to drink mine for me cause I'm allergic to it *seriously I am** and go blast around the track to get close to a perfect lap and save it.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Since DolHaus is the only complete list in the current Google data sheet, I tried to map the results more visually.

The results are conflicting in some ways. Lap time shows a general progression but speed shows that camber just does not matter. Latitudinal Gs show a sloping decrease in grip as camber is added. I am not sure what Longitudinal Gs is showing us? Is this indicating that more camber is better under braking?

Thoughts?

 

[Otaliema]

Since DolHaus is the only complete list in the current Google data sheet, I tried to map the results more visually.

The results are conflicting in some ways. Lap time shows a general progression but speed shows that camber just does not matter. Latitudinal Gs show a sloping decrease in grip as camber is added. I am not sure what Longitudinal Gs is showing us? Is this indicating that more camber is better under braking?

Thoughts?

From what I am seeing in the graph and have experienced the more camber the longer the braking zone and more shallow you have to turn. Once you pass the maximum camber the tune can take. I think the Long G's are showing it can take more load at entry to a turn up to the maximum grip of the tire. But the actual corning speeds are not being affected much if at all and the Lat G's are showing that mid corner is hurt with reduced cornering grip forcing understeer into the car.

 

[Motor City Hami]

If I had to go just by DolHaus' results, 1.0/1.0 seems like a winner. @DolHaus do you remember if the that lap was consistent with the others or did you make a perfect line somewhere in that lap?

 

[Otaliema]

I'll need to look at Motec with a multi lap replay but I think it's possible to get averages for a corner for entire race so rather than checking one lap look at say five or ten laps get the perfect and not so Perfect laps into the data and see how camber is affecting off racing line grip and with super consistant drivers get solid data on the average numbers on close lap times.

 

[DolHaus]

Since DolHaus is the only complete list in the current Google data sheet, I tried to map the results more visually.

The results are conflicting in some ways. Lap time shows a general progression but speed shows that camber just does not matter. Latitudinal Gs show a sloping decrease in grip as camber is added. I am not sure what Longitudinal Gs is showing us? Is this indicating that more camber is better under braking?

Thoughts?

Not seeing anything obvious yet in the patterns shown apart from what we already knew but I have some more data to upload tomorrow that might help highlight patterns (been swamped with work). Thank you for doing the graphs though 👍
The longitudinal data is a little bit confusing, I think that perhaps a more focussed testing programme would yield better data, have to see what happens when the new data is entered though, might even out a bit.

If I had to go just by DolHaus' results, 1.0/1.0 seems like a winner. @DolHaus do you remember if the that lap was consistent with the others or did you make a perfect line somewhere in that lap?

Oddly enough the 1.0 camber seems to be the winner for most of the data I've reviewed so far on HSR from other drivers. I wonder if this is related to the cambered corners in some way because if memory serves this seemed to be where the car was gaining a bit of speed. We won't really know anything for sure until we compare it with flat track data

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I haven't had a chance to test things out yet, but I have read reports, by a few reputable people, that after this recent update camber has now been fixed in that it actually adds more grip in the corners like it should. Reports are that cars actually feel better in the corners now as opposed to before the update. I have not read anything so far though about better lap times however. I'm going to be going away tomorrow, in the hospital again, for about a week so I probably won't have a chance to check this out until after I get out so......I'll leave it up to you guys to see what you think.

Happy Holidays guys and keep up the good work. See you all on the other side.

 

[DolHaus]

I haven't had a chance to test things out yet, but I have read reports, by a few reputable people, that after this recent update camber has now been fixed in that it actually adds more grip in the corners like it should. Reports are that cars actually feel better in the corners now as opposed to before the update. I have not read anything so far though about better lap times however. I'm going to be going away tomorrow, in the hospital again, for about a week so I probably won't have a chance to check this out until after I get out so......I'll leave it up to you guys to see what you think.

Happy Holidays guys and keep up the good work. See you all on the other side.

The thought did cross my mind when some people started noticing handling changes whereas others didn't, if the majority of people were running 0.0 then they obviously wouldn't notice a change.
The data I've reviewed so far is showing improvements when running a small amount of camber (around 1.0) which as I understand it should work on a banked circuit. We will need to run some more tests before we can say anything for certain though 👍

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

The thought did cross my mind when some people started noticing handling changes whereas others didn't, if the majority of people were running 0.0 then they obviously wouldn't notice a change.
The data I've reviewed so far is showing improvements when running a small amount of camber (around 1.0) which as I understand it should work on a banked circuit. We will need to run some more tests before we can say anything for certain though 👍

Alright, thanks for the reply. Look forward to your guy's findings after I get out of the hospital. I might get time here in a few hours after I get done packing and such to have a short go, but nothing proper. Good luck with the testing.

 

[praiano63]

I haven't had a chance to test things out yet, but I have read reports, by a few reputable people, that after this recent update camber has now been fixed in that it actually adds more grip in the corners like it should. Reports are that cars actually feel better in the corners now as opposed to before the update. I have not read anything so far though about better lap times however. I'm going to be going away tomorrow, in the hospital again, for about a week so I probably won't have a chance to check this out until after I get out so......I'll leave it up to you guys to see what you think.

Happy Holidays guys and keep up the good work. See you all on the other side.

Iám building 5 400pp cars on comfort soft tires and i´m testig all of them on the autumn ring mini where i have a lot of ghost. From yesterday 1.14 till today 1.15 i didn´t notice any little change with 0.0 camber.
I´ll test tomorrow 1.0 and more camber to check how it is. My ghosts speaks a lot to me about any little changes.
I wish you a quick recovery and hope to se your ghost line after mine in the next seasonal to change a bit this scenario.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I haven't had a chance to test things out yet, but I have read reports, by a few reputable people, that after this recent update camber has now been fixed in that it actually adds more grip in the corners like it should. Reports are that cars actually feel better in the corners now as opposed to before the update. I have not read anything so far though about better lap times however.

Come on Cargo. I have seen this movie before... like after every single update this year. I am skeptical. I will be tuning a number of cars over the holidays and will surely test it out.

 

[DolHaus]

Alright, thanks for the reply. Look forward to your guy's findings after I get out of the hospital. I might get time here in a few hours after I get done packing and such to have a short go, but nothing proper. Good luck with the testing.

Just for confirmation, are we talking since the 1.14 update or 1.15? (I hadn't realised they released one today)
Good luck with what ever requires the hospital 👍

Iám building 5 400pp cars on comfort soft tires and i´m testig all of them on the autumn ring mini where i have a lot of ghost. From yesterday 1.14 till today 1.15 i didn´t notice any little change with 0.0 camber.
I´ll test tomorrow 1.0 and more camber to check how it is. My ghosts speaks a lot to me about any little changes.
I wish you a quick recovery and hope to se your ghost line after mine in the next seasonal to change a bit this scenario.

Please let us know what you find 👍

Come on Cargo. I have seen this movie before... like after every single update this year. I am skeptical. I will be tuning a number of cars over the holidays and will surely test it out.

Its a familiar story but one of these days it might come to something
Healthy scepticism should be maintained but nothing should be disregarded until proven otherwise, it says they did something with camber in the update description but I believe it was only in regards to a visual bug.

Do you fancy a little informal tune-off during the holidays? Pick a car, specs and track and we can compare notes and approaches

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Come on Cargo. I have seen this movie before... like after every single update this year. I am skeptical. I will be tuning a number of cars over the holidays and will surely test it out.

Yes, I have seen the same movie over and over again myself. But what got me curious was some of the people making the claims. A few of them I have been competing against in the Seasonals for a long time and they seem to have a pretty good understanding of tuning and how a car feels, that's what sparked my curiosity. They don't just go making wild claims just because there was an update. I don't know, maybe I'm giving them too much credit. Anyhow, that's why I came here to see what you guys thought until I can get a chance to check it out myself.

@DolHaus The update just released last night.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Here's the two posts I was referencing to.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/update-1-15-589mb.321207/page-7#post-10316722

Both of those guys seem pretty reputable and aren't really ones to just speculate unless they really feel something different. Not saying I believe them at this point, but it does have my curiosity up beings who they are. As always though, you guys here are the ones I trust the most so if you guys find that there's no change, then I believe you. 👍 Just wanted the professionals here to check it out. I'm almost done preparing for my trip tomorrow, so I think I'll jump on real quick myself to see what I feel.

@Motor City Hami I'll be vacationing at U of M hospital for a week....I'm sure you know where that's at, you should come and see me..... and bring your PS3 and GT6. (I still can't believe we haven't had the chance to meet yet beings we live so close to each other. Going to have to make that happen soon. )

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Motor City Hami]

@Motor City Hami I'll be vacationing at U of M hospital for a week....I'm sure you know where that's at

Yep. Monthly visits there for a while to UofM's Mott Children's Hospital. My son has a Cochlear Implant. Now we are down to visits every six months. When are you in recovery?

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Yep. Monthly visits there for a while to UofM's Mott Children's Hospital. My son has a Cochlear Implant. Now we are down to visits every six months. When are you in recovery?

Probably day after tomorrow would be my guess. I go in tomorrow morning at 11am and my actual operation is scheduled for 1:30pm. They said I could be out sooner, but just be prepared for 6 days at the most. It seems like I have had more damn operations than friggen Evel Knievel.

 

[praiano63]

Test done with my 50/50 very well balanced MAZDA RX500 `70 // 500PP // SPORT TIRES around Twin ring Motegi super speedway.
Best time reached with 0.0/0.0 camber.
Till 1.0/1.0 camber , it´s difficult to feel any difference but the car feel less responsive on smooth driving inputs trying to maintain on the max grip.
At 0.0 camber you can feel the front grip helping to balance the rear out of the line , giving a bit more eagerness during the long curve.
Above 1.0 it´s very clear that you can´t maintain the line and the result is that you loose time because the car cannot maintain itself at the inside of the corner loosing grip.

So in my opinion and only in my opinion , nothing change 1.15. Still 0.0 camber = max grip.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°

 

[crowhop]

Test done with my 50/50 very well balanced MAZDA RX500 `70 // 500PP // SPORT TIRES around Twin ring Motegi super speedway.
Best time reached with 0.0/0.0 camber.
Till 1.0/1.0 camber , it´s difficult to feel any difference but the car feel less responsive on smooth driving inputs trying to maintain on the max grip.
At 0.0 camber you can feel the front grip helping to balance the rear out of the line , giving a bit more eagerness during the long curve.
Above 1.0 it´s very clear that you can´t maintain the line and the result is that you loose time because the car cannot maintain itself at the inside of the corner loosing grip.

So in my opinion and only in my opinion , nothing change 1.15. Still 0.0 camber = max grip.

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°

Welp, that nixes that.

 

[Otaliema]

To put a couple things out there I will back up @praiano63 camber has no noticeable effect on dry pavement above and beyond what we already know. I think some wet, dirt and snow tests are in order to see if there is any effect there as the reports of improved response is coming from the wet 10 lap enduro race seasonal.

Second Motegi oval still has banked corners like HSR does just not as steeply banked, about 10 degrees I think, so for anyone screaming for flat pavement tests with camber this track will not due. Silverstone the stowe has 1 semi banked more like dipped corner to it the rest are flat as it's built on a airstrip.