The Hong Kong Thread

[AerodyManiac]

Excuse me if I hurt anyone's feelings, but these "protestors" look more like bandits to me.
Destroying private property,

Protestors are ‘destroying private property’ only if its owner is suspected to have been assisting the triads or the government, who have been attempting to silence the pro-democratic protestors or wound innocent civilians, or if the owner is involved in stigmatizing the entire movement. You wouldn’t have a dent made to your store if all you did was voiced your support for the police or the government.

damaging metro stations, paralysing the work of the MTR,

The MTR stations are damaged because the company has made dubious decisions that can be interpreted as allowing the police to attack civilians under its own premises, and refused to provide camera footage of what happened at that time to let the general public have a better understanding of the incident.

attacking journalists and taking them hostage like terrorists (in the Hong Kong airport) - what is this for? For freedom?

If you are referring to what happened on August 13, the journalist (who later was identified to be a reporter from the Chinese state media Global Times) was suspected of taking headshots of the people protesting there discreetly, before attempting to run away when asked if he was a journalist there.

Anyway, I don’t think the protestors there share any resemblances to terrorists, as I don’t think terrorists would apologize after their misdeeds and promise to ‘endeavour to improve our methods of protest’.

You break into an electronics store and rob it, now the communist China is defeated. Really?

While I can’t speak for the people who have been protesting every weekend, I think it’s safe to say that people don’t conduct acts of vandalism in order to ‘defeat communist China’ or to overthrow the regime north of us, but rather to have the HK government act on the demands listed since June, or at the very least, set up an independent commission of inquiry to look into all decision-making processes made by the government since the march on June 9, whether the police have been exercising disproportionate levels of force to disperse the protestors or after arrest, and all the happenings in the Hong Kong society as a whole (including the escalating violence on protestors’ part), and provide recommendations to the government.

What do they want? They don't like that extradition bill? You mean, they don't want to get extradited if they murder someone in the mainland China?

Putting fundamental legal differences or the fact that capital punishment is enforced in China aside, I think most of the people in Hong Kong would agree to have a person who committed murder in China extradited back to the mainland. To do the same when the crime involves political reasons instead and when the requesting party’s legislature has a track record of ruling in favour of the government though? That’s an entirely different question.

What's wrong with democracy in Hong Kong? From what I heard, it's one of the freest places in Asia.

Yes, there really aren’t much problems with Hong Kong’s democracy. Until you get to the point that we don’t really have one. Or one that’s comparable to other developed regions’ political systems, at least.

The funniest thing is that direct elections in Hong Kong are impossible untill 2047, under the conditions of the agreement for transfer to China.

Where did you get that information from? Asking because it’s at odds with what we students in HK have been taught throughout the years.

 

[PocketZeven]

Protestors are ‘destroying private property’ only if its owner is suspected to have been assisting the triads or the government, who have been attempting to silence the pro-democratic protestors or wound innocent civilians, or if the owner is involved in stigmatizing the entire movement. You wouldn’t have a dent made to your store if all you did was voiced your support for the police or the government.
The MTR stations are damaged because the company has made dubious decisions that can be interpreted as allowing the police to attack civilians under its own premises, and refused to provide camera footage of what happened at that time to let the general public have a better understanding of the incident.

There is absolutely no justification in destroying someone else's property. Dont try to justify the bad apples' behavior.

 

[Dotini]

There is absolutely no justification in destroying someone else's property. Dont try to justify the bad apples' behavior.

If there is a bad apple in the box, it may become necessary to destroy the whole box. I think it works that way for Mad Cow disease, too.

 

[PocketZeven]

If there is a bad apple in the box, it may become necessary to destroy the whole box. I think it works that way for Mad Cow disease, too.

I think you misunderstood my use of bad apple. I was condemning vandalism and looting.

 

[Dotini]

I think you misunderstood my use of bad apple. I was condemning vandalism and looting.

Back in day we called it civil disobedience or protest. But as a veteran of WTO '99, The Battle in Seattle, I know it's a lot more violent these days. I don't see how China can put up with this on a perpetual basis. These people's taste for freedom can't be tolerated and probably will be snuffed out one way or the other.

 

[AerodyManiac]

There is absolutely no justification in destroying someone else's property. Dont try to justify the bad apples' behavior.

I wasn’t trying to justify their behaviour. Rather, I was trying to offer an explanation for why they did so. While I don’t support what they’re doing, I’d also venture to say that the acts of vandalism (and the intentions behind it) are somewhat understandable, especially considering that the opposite side has done far more heinous acts including shooting at the press deliberately, beating arrested protestors privately, and perhaps even killing people after their arrest with such unlawful beatings.

 

[Sander 001]

Very disappointed but not surprised that Activision-Blizzard is actively furthering the oppressive tyranny of the Chinese government.

 

[FoRiZon]

Very disappointed but not surprised that Activision-Blizzard is actively furthering the oppressive tyranny of the Chinese government.

Gonna suck those Tencent Money somehow.

 

[Carbonox]

At least there's South Park, who will likely double down on the China mockery in the upcoming episodes, as is their usual MO.

 

[FoRiZon]

At least there's South Park, who will likely double down on the China mockery in the upcoming episodes, as is their usual MO.

And the whole show now (not just an episode) got banned entirely and scrubbed off the internet forcefully. Classic China without their sense of irony!

 

[mustafur]

Too easy to trigger Nationalists.

 

[FoRiZon]

Too easy to trigger Nationalists.

You sure you meant "Communists"? Nationalists is basically Taiwan and very much an opposite.

 

[mustafur]

You sure you meant "Communists"? Nationalists is basically Taiwan and very much an opposite.

No I meant what I said.

Chinese Government isn't Communist and very much is a Nationalist government, old terms hide the truth.

 

[FoRiZon]

No I meant what I said.

Chinese Government isn't Communist and very much is a Nationalist government, old terms hide the truth.

But thats what they literally called by name. Its too confusing when you try to define it by definition as PRC and CCP now isn't exactly literally "Communism", but Capitalistic Authoritarianism.

Politics are like that in fact.

 

[mustafur]

But thats what they literally called by name. Its too confusing when you try to define it by definition as PRC and CCP now isn't exactly literally "Communism", but Capitalistic Authoritarianism.

Politics are like that in fact.

You don't have to educate me on history I'm well aware of, let me call a spade a spade.

 

[FoRiZon]

You don't have to educate me on history I'm well aware of, let me call a spade a spade.

Im not lecturing you. Im just saying because most people in the world only knew China as a communist country rather than nationalist because its what they themselves called (and most Chinese people (+HK, Macau, & Taiwan) people are mostly associate "Nationalist China" to the Kuomintang counterpart).

Anyway enjoy my glorious avatar. You must like it or lose social credit bla bla bla.

 

[Sander 001]

And the whole show now (not just an episode) got banned entirely and scrubbed off the internet forcefully. Classic China without their sense of irony!

I’m surprised they permitted it in the first place

 

[pokemonfan58]

South Park wasn’t banned in China before or something?

 

[Liquid]

Any attempt to divide China will end in bodies smashed and bones ground to powder.

Strong words. China is indivisible.

 

[FoRiZon]

Strong words. China is indivisible.

Did you know that nothing literally happened in Tiananmen Square on 3rd June?

 

[Dotini]

Is democracy endangering itself or on the way out?

"In all of China, few enjoy the freedoms of the 7 million in Hong Kong. Yet, for five months, these fortunate and free Chinese, to protest a proposal that would have allowed Hong Kong residents to be extradited to China, stormed into the streets to defy the regime and denounce the conditions under which they live.

These protests have been marked by riots, vandalism, arson and clashes with police. "Hong Kong streets descended into chaos following an unauthorized pro-democracy rally Sunday," writes the Associated Press. Protesters "set up roadblocks and torched businesses, and police responded with tear gas and a water cannon. Protesters tossed firebombs and took their anger out on shops with mainland Chinese ties."

What are the Hong Kong residents denouncing and demanding?

They are protesting both present and future limitations on their freedom. The appearance of American flags in the protests suggests that what they seek is what the agitators behind the Boston Tea Party and the boys and men at Concord Bridge sought – independence, liberty and a severing of the ties to the mother country.

Yet, because the Communist regime of Xi Jinping could not survive such an amputation, the liberation of Hong Kong is not in the cards. The end to these months of protest will likely be frustration, futility and failure.

Perhaps it is that realization that explains the vehemence and violence. But the rage is also what kills the support they initially received."

"This reversion to violence, ransacking of stores and showering of police with bricks, bottles and debris, is costing the protesters much of the backing they enjoyed. In the trade-off between freedom and order, people will ultimately opt for order."

- Pat Buchanan
​

https://www.wnd.com/2019/10/democracy-dying-species/

 

[mustafur]

Is democracy endangering itself or on the way out?

What Democracy does Hong Kong have?
They can't vote on the leader, and companies get a near equal share of the vote as regular people, with the majority of those companies afraid to do anything to anger the mainland(and we have seen how butthurt they get over the smallest transgressions), you end up with Pro CCP leaders like Carrie Lam.

In the current system the average person who likes freedom of speech is a doomed species.

 

[FoRiZon]

Everyday going worse to horrible. Search the footages for yourself as it's now likely breaking the AUP if I post here.

 

[AerodyManiac]

The Washington Post recently published an article on police’s abuse of powers and the magnitude of said abuse. While the abuse is probably no news to some of you, the figures are still pretty alarming, and some of the previously-confidential guidelines on use of force by the police force has also been exposed.

The use of force by police is well documented in video of the demonstrations since they began in June. The Post created a database of 65 police use-of-force incidents through mid-November, verified for authenticity by a team of law students at the University of Hong Kong, to form the basis of the investigation. The students are part of Amnesty International’s Digital Verification Corps, trained to geolocate and analyze open-source videos.

...

The Post’s database of 65 use-of-force incidents includes videos from reporters, local broadcast news outlets, student journalists and others between June and November. The incidents were chosen to encapsulate every crowd-control tool used by Hong Kong police, and to include police responses to both peaceful and violent protests. The incidents were evenly spread between each month. The videos offer a snapshot of police behavior in responding to the unrest.

The Post consulted nine policing experts from around the world, including Argentina, Israel, South Africa, Hong Kong, the United States and Britain, who analyzed the videos against the force’s guidelines and international standards, specifically, the United Nations’ guidance on the use of less-than-lethal weapons published in August.

The experts, who each reviewed a different set of videos, said they thought that Hong Kong police went against their rules in about 70 percent of the incidents reviewed. In 8 percent of incidents, the experts said the use of force could be justified under police guidelines. The remaining incidents were not sufficiently clear to reach a conclusion.

Experts noted, however, that videos capturing police use of force do not always illustrate the full picture of events around a specific incident. Their analysis was based only on the database The Post created.

Where available, the University of Hong Kong team found corroborating videos from different angles, and longer clips capturing more of the incident.

The government, responding to the article, said the allegations are ‘biased and misguiding’, and that the force has been using the minimum required force with restraint and in compliance with international standards, according to a local news outlet. (English version here, though it doesn’t say exactly the same thing)

In another news (dating around 2 weeks, but just to inform those who weren’t following closely), the international experts panel, which was invited in September by the official government-appointed commission to handle complaints against the police to evaluate the police’s handling of events since the protests began and make recommendations, has decided to ‘stand aside’ from its work, citing the lack of power of the official commission to investigate matters thoroughly and independently as a reason. It has also suggested that an independent commission of inquiry is better suited to the task.

 

[Liquid]

Hong Kong is doomed.

HK representatives are forcibly removed from the session by CCP so pro-CCP lawmakers can do what they want and force a vote.

 

[Dotini]

Hong Kong is doomed.

HK representatives are forcibly removed from the session by CCP so pro-CCP lawmakers can do what they want and force a vote.

The same thing is going to happen to Taiwan.

"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty"

 

[mustafur]

The same thing is going to happen to Taiwan.

"When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty"

Unless China invades Taiwan explain how it could possibly happen?

 

[Dotini]

Unless China invades Taiwan explain how it could possibly happen?

If Hong Kong wants freedom and democracy, they must now resist or rebel against China.

If Taiwan wants freedom and democracy, they must continue to resist, and if/when China invades or blockades, they must resist harder.

 

[Rage Racer]

Where did you get that information from? Asking because it’s at odds with what we students in HK have been taught throughout the years.

My initial source was a Russian blogger who lives in HK and highlights all these protests. From what I understand, the current system without direct elections was set by the colonial government and can't be changed for at least 50 years after the HK's handover to China (i.e. until 2047).

What he says about the current National Security Law thing is that this law was being tried to pass for 23 years but the Hong Kong government still couldn't give birth to one that would satisfy everyone. Beijing is annoyed by this (spiced up by the violent riots and terrorism) so it's stepping in with force.

Those rioters who thought that breaking private & state property, throwing Molotov cocktails and attacking police and bypassers will cause the PRC government to back down only angered it instead.

 

[ryzno]

https://www.npr.org/sections/corona...dium=social&utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr