The lack of '50s road cars.

[VinylRichie]

It's a racing car game most 50's road cars wouldn't be able to keep up with a dull modern hatchback. That said the aesthetics would be nice but no thanks in general.

That’s just partly true. And this is btw a racing car game which puts a lot of focus on automotive history as a whole, not just modern cars, which you can see when you look at the opening movie of the game, or the museums. This is part of what GT is about.

And cars from like the 50s can be a lot of fun, most were very light back then compared to modern cars, it’s not even unusual that they weight not even half of what a modern hatchback weights.

 

[HarVee]

It's a racing car game most 50's road cars wouldn't be able to keep up with a dull modern hatchback. That said the aesthetics would be nice but no thanks in general.

For a "racing car game" it sure does have quite a few slow older road cars that "can't keep up with a dull modern hatchback". The Renault R4, VW 1200, Sambabus, Fiat 500 1966, Citroen DS... etc.

 

[S-car-Go]

True, that said my Porsche powered Beetle is a right hoot. But against anything other than a one make challenge the Beetle is a pile of poo.
Take for example the recent Renault 4 one make race at Alsace sure you can pimp your R4 for an easy win or try and find every tenth on the track to make that time, what a painful 6minutes that was.

 

[Keef]

Uhm ok, European marques had a lot to offer in the 50‘s, they weren’t busy getting „up on their feet“ for long, there was a lot of innovation, world class engineering and design in that period.

There’s more than just a few exceptions:

AC Aceca
Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Speciale
Allard K2
Aston Martin DB4 GT
Austin-Healey 100S
BMW 507
Borgward Isabella
Cisitalia 202
Cunningham C3 Continental
Facel Vega HK500
Ferrari 410 Superamerica
Jaguar Mk II
Jaguar XK120
Lancia Aurelia
Maserati 3500 GT
MGA
OSCA MT4
Pegaso Z-102
Talbot-Lago T26
Triumph TR2

Note that all these cars are European, and I can't blame you because you're also European. There are only a few truly notable American cars from this era and they were simply responses to the sports cars from Europe, especially the Corvette and Thunderbird. Those two were basically it for "sports cars" from America during the 1950s.

Two subcultures developed here in the 50s, the hot rod and the muscle car, but the latter wasn't really recognizable yet. Hot rods became commonplace in the 50s but the vast majority were based on even older pre-war cars, modified cars. You know, hot rods. NASCAR also began growing in the 50s. V8s became commonplace.

But the European brands were the ones who had been developing interesting cars for years by this point. The vast majority of American cars were simply family cars, largely because that's what everybody needed to haul around their baby boom post-war families. Suburban life was booming across the industrial heartland of the US which has a conspicious lack of exciting mountain roads to enjoy.

Another thing is that the American cars from that era weren't sold anywhere else to my knowledge which means they're only meaningful to the American market. And even here, most of these cars are really obscure unless one is an afficionado. I have no idea what I'm looking at with cars from this era, they're all just post-war blobs to me.

That said, there are a few that PD should add to help celebrate car culture and celebrate that era of American cars. Kind of surprising that the Thunderbird has never made an appearance in the game.

 

[VinylRichie]

Note that all these cars are European, and I can't blame you because you're also European. There are only a few truly notable American cars from this era and they were simply responses to the sports cars from Europe, especially the Corvette and Thunderbird. Those two were basically it for "sports cars" from America during the 1950s.

Two subcultures developed here in the 50s, the hot rod and the muscle car, but the latter wasn't really recognizable yet. Hot rods became commonplace in the 50s but the vast majority were based on even older pre-war cars, modified cars. You know, hot rods. NASCAR also began growing in the 50s. V8s became commonplace.

But the European brands were the ones who had been developing interesting cars for years by this point. The vast majority of American cars were simply family cars, largely because that's what everybody needed to haul around their baby boom post-war families. Suburban life was booming across the industrial heartland of the US which has a conspicious lack of exciting mountain roads to enjoy.

Another thing is that the American cars from that era weren't sold anywhere else to my knowledge which means they're only meaningful to the American market. And even here, most of these cars are really obscure unless one is an afficionado. I have no idea what I'm looking at with cars from this era, they're all just post-war blobs to me.

That said, there are a few that PD should add to help celebrate car culture and celebrate that era of American cars. Kind of surprising that the Thunderbird has never made an appearance in the game.

These are just European cars because the one who I responded to claimed that European marques were just getting on their feet after war, which implied for me that there wasn’t anything interesting there with a few exceptions.
I haven’t touched on his claim about US Cars because i don’t know enough about it I think, but from what I know he’s not that wrong about this part (except that cartoony thing, that’s debatable). Like you said there were mostly just Hot Rods, and muscle cars weren’t a thing till the 60s starting with the Pontiac GTO (I think some say that the Chrysler C300 from ’55 was the first, but I’m not sure).
But there were some more unknown sports cars in that decade from the US like the Kurtis 500S, Woodill Wildfire, Kaiser-Darrin or the Cunningham C3, but at the end the muscle car took over. I wonder why, because a lot of GI‘s who where stationed in Europe back then got in contact with those cars there and mostly loved them, and the european marques got into the US market, they were pretty successful as far as I know, but the US brands took another direction.
Ar least that’s how I perceive the situation back then with my degree of knowledge.
I too don’t understand why the Thunderbird never made it into GT, it is a pretty important car in US automotive history and would make a good rival I guess to the C1 Corvette.

 

[CommandrCyclops]

True, that said my Porsche powered Beetle is a right hoot. But against anything other than a one make challenge the Beetle is a pile of poo.
Take for example the recent Renault 4 one make race at Alsace sure you can pimp your R4 for an easy win or try and find every tenth on the track to make that time, what a painful 6minutes that was.

The Beetle and R4 happen to be good grinders if you’re doing the bit with the hobbled Tomahawks. I can make Cr.198,000 in about 11 minutes with one lap around Nurb24 in either one.

 

[HarVee]

The Beetle and R4 happen to be good grinders if you’re doing the bit with the hobbled Tomahawks. I can make Cr.198,000 in about 11 minutes with one lap around Nurb24 in either one.

You can make about the same in 10 minutes doing the American Clubman race at HSR with an un-hobbled Tommy S. And it's an easier track to race.

 

[Keef]

I wonder why

The main reason smaller sports cars never took hold is because of suburbs, the rapidly growing national highway system, and dirt cheap fuel. America had a ton of wide open spaces at the time, lots of ground to cover between cities, plenty of space to park cars, and lots of room to go fast in literal straight lines because that's how the country roads were designed throughout the industrial Midwest and rural South which were the heart of the country at the time, as well as the young but big and flat cities out west like LA. Having car that could do everything was key, from being fast to hauling an entire family on a road trip.

 

[S-car-Go]

So from the 1950's assuming your after a swift car that' are not already in the game?
Ford Thunderbird
Jaguar XK120
BMW 507

 

[bigmull]

I've a split opinion with old cars. I usualy like to watch and admire them, because they look great. But when it comes to driving, that's a different story. Driving them slow is ok, but racing them feels like a fight.
In the end i voted with "no". I'd rather have more actual race cars.

The Classic cars in GT7 are sadly overlooked.Sure some are the size of a barn door and handle like one, but many are a pleasure to drive.You can’t hammer around a circuit hoping that the downforce will keep you on the track as many don’t have any aerodynamic packs,that said many of them will beat the Le Mans 700 pp hands down. The Honda 272,Ferrari 500 Mondial,Skyline Hard Top,E&D Type Jags just for starters will all thrash the modern cars on the grid effortlessly.You really need to have another look at Classic cars in the game.

One of the main reasons why US cars from the 50’s never were big in UK was due to a couple of things but the main one was the Tax levy on non UK vehicles.Britain was still stuck in the post war austerity period,fuel and tyres were relatively expensive which is why small Sports Cars were the order of the day.Cheaper than foreign cars,more fuel efficient engines pushed the production of these cars,a lot built in sheds by ex aircraft engineers and the like built on existing chassis.Back in the 60’s it was common to see tiny Austin A30’s,Minis and Ford Anglias racing against Mk2 Jags and the odd US V8 beasts and beat them.

 

[VinylRichie]

The main reason smaller sports cars never took hold is because of suburbs, the rapidly growing national highway system, and dirt cheap fuel. America had a ton of wide open spaces at the time, lots of ground to cover between cities, plenty of space to park cars, and lots of room to go fast in literal straight lines because that's how the country roads were designed throughout the industrial Midwest and rural South which were the heart of the country at the time, as well as the young but big and flat cities out west like LA. Having car that could do everything was key, from being fast to hauling an entire family on a road trip.

This makes sense👍 maybe it also played a part, that almost all of US brands were part of the big three, so they could control the market and the direction it was heading without a lot of disturbances, and keep competition down (Tucker for example). But that’s just a theory of mine.

So from the 1950's assuming your after a swift car that' are not already in the game?
Ford Thunderbird
Jaguar XK120
BMW 507

There’s some more (as I already stated), and a BMW 507 isn’t really the swiftest (but to be fair a lot of sports cars from the 50s didn’t go under 10s from 0-60mph)

 

[05XR8]

Just had a Quick Look. The Delray is a surprise.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15379767/fastest-cars-1950s/?slide=4

 

[911RSR]

The Classic cars in GT7 are sadly overlooked.Sure some are the size of a barn door and handle like one, but many are a pleasure to drive.You can’t hammer around a circuit hoping that the downforce will keep you on the track as many don’t have any aerodynamic packs,that said many of them will beat the Le Mans 700 pp hands down. The Honda 272,Ferrari 500 Mondial,Skyline Hard Top,E&D Type Jags just for starters will all thrash the modern cars on the grid effortlessly.You really need to have another look at Classic cars in the game.

Yes, the Jaaaaag in the current TT is nice to drive. The Honda and the Ferrari you mentioned are also pure race cars. But the thread is about road cars! More race cars? Bring them on! I wouldn't mind if GT was a race car only game

 

[VinylRichie]

Just had a Quick Look. The Delray is a surprise.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15379767/fastest-cars-1950s/?slide=4

Ha, never heard of the Delray before, but here it’s up with Porsche and Ferrari😀
But where’s cars like the Jaguar XK-SS, Aston Martin DB4 or a Maserati on that list? They should be at least as quick as those cars on it🤔

 

[05XR8]

Ha, never heard of the Delray before, but here it’s up with Porsche and Ferrari😀
But where’s cars like the Jaguar XK-SS, Aston Martin DB4 or a Maserati on that list? They should be at least as quick as those cars on it🤔

Someone will probably correct me but I think the XKSS was like a Porsche 962 and Toyota GT-One road version. If it were a daily driver like some of the cars in the article then for sure.

The Maserati GT(?) yeah probably in that Corvette class.

 

[VinylRichie]

Someone will probably correct me but I think the XKSS was like a Porsche 962 and Toyota GT-One road version. If it were a daily driver like some of the cars in the article then for sure.

The Maserati GT(?) yeah probably in that Corvette class.

Yeah kind of, but not that radical I would say. They were converted D-Types yeah, but I think they were not very different from some other production sports roadsters from that time.
Yes the Maserati 3500 GT (or maybe even the 5000 GT, not sure if it’s from the 50s), it was probably in the 6-7 seconds area.

 

[05XR8]

Yeah kind of, but not that radical I would say. They were converted D-Types yeah, but I think they were not very different from some other production sports roadsters from that time.
Yes the Maserati 3500 GT (or maybe even the 5000 GT, not sure if it’s from the 50s), it was probably in the 6-7 seconds area.

That's it. 5000GT. Looked it up just then. Pretty quick.

 

[HarVee]

Seems some (such as myself) would love anything road car from the '50s at this point, while others are a bit more choose-y.

Interesting results so far. Keep voting guys, would love to see more opinions on this topic.

 

[OldandSlow]

The Chrysler 300 Letter cars were exceptional for their day. Big boats, but great performers for their size.

 

[05XR8]

Speaking of Elvis. Was looking through photos my Mother sent me. Found some of me and relatives in and around some cool cars at the time. My wife shows me this:

She's sitting in Elvis'. '68 Eldorado in 1988/89! Her step-father transported this and on the trailer off camera is Chitty-Chitty Bang Bang. Crazy.

 

[OldandSlow]

Those Eldo’s and Toro’s were great cars. Sleek and stylish luxury cars. The T-Birds and Rivieras were sharp, too. Buick stepped up the performance on the Rivs with the GS models.

 

[05XR8]

Yeah. The Grand Prix and Boat Tail Rivieras were my favourites with their sharp edges and points.

 

[skydragon49]

I voted No.

50's cars are beautiful and all, nice to drive but sadly they're not very competitive in the offline races. Let alone sport mode.

I mean, it's nice to have some of them (as we do right now) to have a relaxing drive, or as a piece of car culture and something to collect. But other than that, they are not needed.

 

[Meythia]

50's cars are beautiful and all, nice to drive but sadly they're not very competitive in the offline races. Let alone sport mode.

Really depends on how well the game wants to picture them.
Unfortunatly though most of the cars of this age are Hagerty cars, so not regularly available and then unreasonably priced (because ... well ... collect ...).
There are quite a few of them that are fast in regards to a certian PP range, but PP is simply a broken system, so comparing cars is basically impossible or pointless.

 

[TheCracker]

I originally voted 'No' as i have very little interest in anything pre-1960. But if it was hypothetically choosing between something like a Jaguar XK120 and another new VGT car, then bring on the wire wheels every time. So, in that case, 'Depends...'

 

[kiseca]

That's a yes from me. There aren't many '50s cars I'm interested in but that doesn't matter. More variety, more choices, more happy players.

It also doesn't matter to me that they'd be slower than modern cars. That's true for every car in the game more than 20 years old. A Skyline R32 won't keep up with an R35 GTR. A McLaren F1 couldn't live with a Veyron, which won't keep up with a Chiron. A modern Ford Focus RS will walk away from an S13 200SX.

You can close some of those gaps by tuning the old car and keeping the new one standard, but then we step further back and we have Ferrari 308s and 512s and Maserati Meraks and a whole bunch of other stuff that would need a lot of work to keep up with a modern hot hatch.

Regardless, I don't see the point in racing a 1950s car against a 2020s one. All of the races available have parameters, regulations, so cars from the 40s, 50s and maybe 60s would likely have a series allowing them to race eachother.

I had no interest in the Porsche 356 Speedster, but when I first put on the VR headset and took the driver's seat of one in one of the music rally things, I fell in love with its curved wings, dainty windscreen, and beautifully modelled dash. I loved that the top of the door was visible on my left and tried to peer over it down at the road (but was foiled when I headbutted the wall next to my seat )

It's not a car I've ever had any interest in through looking at pictures of it or reading its specification, but in VR it's a lovely place to be. Doesn't matter how slow it is. Cars from that era had so much individuality, it gives them each a different character before you even get going in it. The body coloured dashboards, the slim pillars, the tiny dimensions of the European cars. The even smaller stuff coming out of Japan. The huge, long bonnets and massive tailfins of the US cars and their bench seats and cavernous interiors and laid back, rumbling V8s...

The modern cars, in comparison, with their pillbox windscreens, huge A-pillars and digital dashboards, in my opinion, can't compete as a nice virtual place to sit.

If GT added more '50s cars to the game, I'd discover more gems that I'd previously never have given a second glance. To me, that's what makes Gran Turismo special. Every car is interesting for what it is, not for what it can beat. I can drive a bunch of cars, all by myself, around a track for hours, not care what lap times I'm setting, just enjoying that each car looks and feels so different. I can discover versions of cars that I never knew existed, or "drive" cars that were on my bedroom wall 30 - 40 years ago.

To me, Gran Turismo is not a car racing game, it's a car experiencing game, and VR has just made that experience so much more immersive. The more cars it has in it, if the quality of the modelling remains high, the better the game will get. They don't seem to have a history of massively growing the car list unfortunately, but with the VR world now, I really hope they do. I'd pay to support new model development, because where else can I experience dream cars like this? I'm never going to get to sit in a real McLaren F1, never mind drive one. With the second hand market the way it is, that's becoming true of a lot more classic cars. This is as close as I'll ever get to most of them so I'd love it, but not expecting it, if PD do expand the list. A lot.

They could also go with more '50s racers which opens up a whole world of quality, from the Maserati 250F to the BRM V16 to the Maserati birdcage to the original Ferrari Testa Rossa. As Nick Mason and Mark Hales showed in their book Into the Red, road machinery, at least in the 1990s, still hadn't caught up with the pace of 1950s racers. They were still fast cars, and remain so now.

 

[Meythia]

That's true for every car in the game more than 20 years old

It is not the tech advantage of time making modern cars faster but the general idea that cars have to be faster (without any place in the world to use this speed).

Is the Veyorn faster than the F1?
Yes, on a straight line, at a certian point.
Is it faster on any track on the world that is not a drag strip?
No.

Is it faster on the straight because it is newer?
Maybe, but the F1 was not designed with the sole purpose of being the fastest car of its time, just the best family car (haha ... but this is the reason it has 2 additional seats behind the driver).

 

[kiseca]

I don't think a road spec McLaren F1 would beat a Veyron around most tracks. The Veyron has bigger wheels, bigger and much more effective brakes, a faster gearbox, better tyres (OK, you can put modern tyres on an F1 too), much more power, four wheel drive traction. Yes it weighs a lot more but in every other area it has the advantage of technology not available to the F1's design team. I think the Veyron would beat the McLaren on most tracks because it can accelerate sooner and harder, and brake later. I'm happy to be proven wrong though. I've never seen comparative lap times for real ones.

Perhaps a better direct comparison would be the F1 versus the GMA T.50 if that ever becomes available for any kind of comparison.... though with the current prices of F1s, that seems unlikely to happen. But, it's designed to the same philosophy as the McLaren F.1, with the same person in charge, still not interested in making the fastest car available but something that can be used every day for a huge enjoyment hit on the roads, and benefitting from technological advances made since the 1990s. I'll bet the tub is lighter too even though both are carbon fibre.

Tech has made bigger wheels and tyres with lower profiles possible. It has made bodyshells stiffer, allowing for stiffer suspension. Old cars were soft and comfortable in part because that's what was accepted, but also because there was a limit how stiff you could make the suspension before chassis flex started having too much influence on the ride. Engine tech and management has made them much more effective over more of their range. Traction is better. Dual clutch gearboxes change gears faster than manuals. Turbocharging feels practically unrecognisable compared to what was available in 1990.

Just about any modern car is, objectively, better than it was possible to build one in 1990 or even 2000. Materials have advanced. Tyres have advanced. Computer modelling has hugely advanced. Tolerances have become tighter. There are tons of changes that we can't see, but they all make a difference. It doesn't necessarily make a car nicer to drive, but it does make it faster, brake better, and grip better when comparing like with like... say a modern Focus against a 20 year old one.