The NBA's, Artest.

[boombexus]

What is your take on this whole incident? Link...>then click on "Video: Watch entire brawl"

Artest, who was the player who started the fight with the fans, was suspended from 73 games.
Is Artest being punished enough, or be letting off easy?

Personally, I think that he's being let of way too easy by the NBA, but we have yet to see if civil charges will be brought against him.

Also, who's at fault? The fans? The players? The NBA?

What do you think should be done in the future to prevent this from happening agian?

 

[Arwin]

Call 1-800-BUDDY?

But seriously. It's a pretty bad thing, but I wasn't very impressed with people throwing beer cans(or whatever) either - and I don't just mean later when the players leave, but I mean before the thing got the audience involved. You could see at least one player dodge one just in time and that got him pissed. I bet when he and his teammate saw someone throw something again, that's when they decided to go up there.

Artest's coach is at least partially to blame if you ask me. If a player asks to be allowed some time off play because he can't handle the stress, that's a pretty clear signal.

Finally, I stand by my longtime conviction that professional sports are a bad idea altogether. The stakes have been allowed to get so high that you get stupid things like doping, bribery and so on. I say bring back the amateurs.

 

[Race Idiot]

For some reason none of the links work for me, they just link back to the index.

French player Eric Cantona was fined £20,000 and banned for a karate kick on a fan. He was banned for nine months and stripped of his captaincy of the French National team. Well the guy was making French jokes at him, although he was a bit of a crazy bastard.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/27/newsid_2506000/2506237.stm

There was another incident where a fan ran onto the pitch and tried to assault the goalie, although the fan was charged and I don't think the goalie was at fault.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2004-02/01/content_301982.htm

 

[ledhed]

Its a shame you cant suspend or fine the fans. The players are already getting loaded up on , the animals in the stands except for a few punches seem to have gotten away with it.

 

[milefile]

If anyone else punched somebody at work they'd be fired permanently, provoked or not.

 

[Arwin]

If anyone else punched somebody at work they'd be fired permanently, provoked or not.

Maybe in your world. My world seems to be more complex.

 

[Famine]

Its a shame you cant suspend or fine the fans. The players are already getting loaded up on , the animals in the stands except for a few punches seem to have gotten away with it.

You can.

The guy in the Cantona incident was banned from Selhurst Park for life.

 

[sUn]

Your allowed brawls in hockey for some odd reason. The punishment's way to much.

 

[Danoff]

The punishment is not severe enough. Several people invovled should be removed from the NBA and (separately) prosecuted for criminal behavior.

 

[ledhed]

The nitwits throwing drinks and chairs should be arrested. Along with the beer soaked goofballs that threw punches at the players. Artest was laying on a table when an idiot hit him with a full drink , I dont care for Artest or what he did but he will lose 5 million or more from his suspension , Whats the fan going to lose ? they want to act like gladiators they deserve to have thier stupid ass's kicked at the very least.

 

[Giancarlo]

Artest may be a good player, but he's a real scumbag. I'm glad he's out for the season.

 

[Matrixhasu77]

I hope that the fans who threw the drinks at the players and staff were arrested. As for Artest and the rest of the pacers that went into the stands after those fans, well, they clearly shouldn't have. Security is also an issue here obviously because it could have been prevented if the security staff had been there quicker to stop the fights.

 

[ND4SPD]

I say its both the fan who threw the drink, and the players fault at the same time. I saw it live and thought, what a jerk and then I saw the player freak out and lunge for the crowd I thought these guys were pros? I mean yes it a stupid thing to throw something at someone, your even stupider to hunt him down and beat him to submission.

 

[Sage]

Everybody involved is at fault, but I'll be steaming mad if the clown who threw the beer at Artest doesn't get some sort of punishment, because that's what really ignited the whole problem. The on-court shoving I can handle to a certain extent, but throwing a beer at someone's head is beyond unnacceptable.

 

[Klostrophobic]

If it weren't for Artest's past problems I would say Steven Jackson deserved a stiffer fine just because he was not provoked into going into the stands and throwing punches at fans.

Jermaine O'Neal should not have been suspended for more than a couple games. Actually, he probably shouldn't be suspended at all, but he did punch a fan right in the face.

All of this could be avoided if the arena had better security. Well, at least Jermaine O'Neals punch could have been avoided if the security could keep the fans off the court.

I don't think I'll ever understand Artest. Ben Wallace shoves him in the face and he doesn't react at all, but some douchebag in the seventh row tosses a piece of plastic at him and he goes ape****.

Artest's suspension is fair, Steven Jackson's is fair, Jermaine O'Neal's suspension is ludicrous.

I'm happy because the Celtics have a better shot of making it somewhere in the playoffs.

 

[milefile]

Maybe in your world. My world seems to be more complex.

Yeah. A world where personal responisbility doesn't exist. I know.

 

[Arwin]

Yeah. A world where personal responisbility doesn't exist. I know.

You don't know. I've made it a point to make each problem unique and look at it fresh. You like to just apply the 'individual's problem, not mine' stamp by default. Very dogmatic and simplistic. In my view, the individual's problems nearly always are or end up being society's problems and vice versa. The exact same words I wrote in reply to Danoff in the obesity thread.

 

[milefile]

No, I do know. You think people aren't responisible for themselves, either all of the time or some of the time, because of society. I think people are always responsible for themselves, that each individual is unique, and that hundreds of unique, bad decisions were made by individuals at that basketball game. Your assertion that your "world" is more complex is wrong.

 

[Arwin]

No, I do know.

No you don't. I'll respect any opinion you have. But when you claim to know what I mean better than I do, you're crossing a line:

You think people aren't responisible for themselves, either all of the time or some of the time, because of society.

I don't. Period.

I think people are always responsible for themselves, that each individual is unique, and that hundreds of unique, bad decisions were made by individuals at that basketball game.

Apart from the fact that people like to think they are more unique than they really are, hundreds of unique bad decisions each influence and interact with each other, cause each other, reinforce each other and/or affect each other in other ways. Instead of singling out each individual in such a group however, some people also refer to them as 'society'.

Your assertion that your "world" is more complex is wrong.

So far you haven't convinced me of that. I've never said that personal responsibility doesn't exist. In fact I've said the opposite, literally. What I do think is that people also have some responsibility towards others. I believe that you do not. That makes your world view simpler than mine, in my opinion, and less connected to reality.

 

[Pupik]

As much as professional athletes get paid to play a kid's game, there ought to be a little bit of professionalism on thier part. Punching your customers (yes, sports fans are customers, even if they support the opposing team) isn't very professional.

On the other hand, fans have no right to interfere with the ability for the players (they are basically employees) to do their job properly and safely, no matter what the sport. It was a truly pathetic, unheroic, and disgusting display from several players and fans.

Both the players and fans involved should be prosecuted. A stand has to be taken, and a point needs to be made; even if it's just a glorified bar brawl.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

The fans that assult the players by throwing objects at them should be banned. Its just not acceptable to interfere with the players. You pay to go see them play. That is a privelage. NEVER should there be a reason a fan interferes with players in any game unless assulted by the player first. In a way I completely understand and see reason with Ron Artest exploding and running into the croud assulting people. I wish he had beat the crap out of the guy that actually threw the cup. Thats what that idiot in the stands needed. What an a$$!! I keep seeing him on TV and he is just making a joke of this entire event. 👎 HE is the one who should be punished not Ron Artest.
The fan threw the cup and assulted Ron Artest. The fan is at fault.

 

[Danoff]

In a way I completely understand and see reason with Ron Artest exploding and running into the croud assulting people. I wish he had beat the crap out of the guy that actually threw the cup. Thats what that idiot in the stands needed. What an a$$!! I keep seeing him on TV and he is just making a joke of this entire event. HE is the one who should be punished not Ron Artest.
The fan threw the cup and assulted Ron Artest. The fan is at fault.

You're right!!!

That guy who threw the plastic cup full of liquid at Ron Artest should have been shot! I wish Ron had a gun so he could have shot that guy. I'm glad he went up into the stands and started beating up people in the area that the cup came from. I hope that guy who threw the plasitc cup at Ron goes to jail and gets chained up or something so that Ron can go beat him up some more. Athelets should always go attack the crowd when the crowd gets out of hand.

Did I mention that Ron should have had a gun so he could start shooting people?

What I do think is that people also have some responsibility towards others.

... and what does this have to do with the NBA again? Why is it my fault that some jacka*s decided to throw something at a basketball player or some moron basketball player decided to react like a caveman and start beating everything up in sight? And what exactly was it that I was supposed to do to prevent this? And why is that my responsibility?

 

[milefile]

No you don't. I'll respect any opinion you have. But when you claim to know what I mean better than I do, you're crossing a line:



I don't. Period.



Apart from the fact that people like to think they are more unique than they really are, hundreds of unique bad decisions each influence and interact with each other, cause each other, reinforce each other and/or affect each other in other ways. Instead of singling out each individual in such a group however, some people also refer to them as 'society'.



So far you haven't convinced me of that. I've never said that personal responsibility doesn't exist. In fact I've said the opposite, literally. What I do think is that people also have some responsibility towards others. I believe that you do not. That makes your world view simpler than mine, in my opinion, and less connected to reality.

Uh oh, you've dissected my post line by line.

Apart from the fact that no liberal wants to admit the implications and consequences of liberal thinking, I only have a rsponse to this:

people like to think they are more unique than they really are

There is no gradient of uniqueness. Something or somebody is either unique or not. To suggest that a human being is "partially", or "sort of" unique, or even "more" unique, simply robs the individual of any possibility of freedom, which, as we all know, also means responsibility.

 

[Arwin]

Uh oh, you've dissected my post line by line.

Apart from the fact that no liberal wants to admit the implications and consequences of liberal thinking

Please stop using the term liberal. It means 5 different things in 5 different countries as I've posted before, and over here it means almost the exact opposite of what it means in the U.S., so it gives me a headache each time you use it. Also, by labelling people liberal you rob them of their freedom to have unique thoughts and responsibilities.

, I only have a rsponse to this:

There is no gradient of uniqueness. Something or somebody is either unique or not. To suggest that a human being is "partially", or "sort of" unique, or even "more" unique, simply robs the individual of any possibility of freedom, which, as we all know, also means responsibility.

Yes, things are either good or evil, on or off, black or white, true or false, etc. etc. etc. You say that you can only be free if you are completely unique, and only be responsible if you are free? Sounds like more fundamentalism and simplification to me. That leads to asking questions like "are we all uniquely free, or are we all equally free"? Headache stuff. (A lot depends on what scope you give the term unique. )

I believe in a world of gradients. That's why I keep saying that I've got the feeling that my gradient world is more complex than your binary one. If you use binary clever enough, you can still end up with a complexity that is close enough to the analogue world though - witness DVD Audio vs Vinyl.

 

[milefile]

Please stop using the term liberal. It means 5 different things in 5 different countries as I've posted before, and over here it means almost the exact opposite of what it means in the U.S., so it gives me a headache each time you use it. Also, by labelling people liberal you rob them of their freedom to have unique thoughts and responsibilities.

But you know what I mean when I say it, and that's all that matters.

Yes, things are either good or evil, on or off, black or white, true or false, etc. etc. etc.

And you think something else. I know. It's all relative, or a matter of convenience.

You say that you can only be free if you are completely unique

No. I said all human beings are unique. Again, there is no "completely" unique. It's impossible.

and only be responsible if you are free? Sounds like more fundamentalism and simplification to me.

No. I said freedom = responsibility. Everybody learns this for themselves, if they are allowed to.

That leads to asking questions like "are we all uniquely free, or are we all equally free"? Headache stuff. (A lot depends on what scope you give the term unique. )

Uniquely free? No. Unique because we are free. You are not anything except you. There is no other you. You are unique. Equally free? I don't know. And again, "unique" is absolute. It is what it is. (but to quote a very famous liberal: "that depends on your definition of "is")

I believe in a world of gradients. That's why I keep saying that I've got the feeling that my gradient world is more complex than your binary one. If you use binary clever enough, you can still end up with a complexity that is close enough to the analogue world though - witness DVD Audio vs Vinyl.

Sure. Gradients are great, where possible and/or appropriate. But they do not serve all purposes, and can even be destructive. I refuse to use digital cameras. I still listen to vinyl records, too.

But unique is unique. You are whether you like it or not.

If you beat somebody senseless you beat somebody senseless. If he threw beer on you he threw beer on you. Both are wrong. Both were freely chosen. Should provokation be a cosideration in dealing out consequences? Sure. But free will and responsibility are still the standard.

 

[a6m5]

Fans clearly started this thing. If I throw a cup full of beer at someone, I deserve to get beat up. At the same time, when you're an NBA player in the middle of the game, you can not go into the stands.

Artest has always been a trouble maker, and with his reputation, he probably deserved the suspension. If I was the Pacers GM, I would look to trade him, or cut him loose. I thought Jackson's suspension was little longer than it should've been. Jermaine punched an fan who rushed onto the court. This fan was just about to attack someone, when Jermaine punched him. Jermaine shouldn't been suspended for punching a man who's rushing to get them. Jermaine started out in NBA with my Blazers, but he's no thug. Out of all the NBA people I've met, he was the nicest person.

Props to Freddy for not fighting back!

 

[fasj6418]

one year after, and still nobody put the blame also on the guy who made it all happen:

those who watch the game, can remember.

4th quarter,pacers rolling. artest gets the ball, and dunks hard. ben wallace gets angray at that couple of plays later artest goes to the basket, ben wallace, fouls him. flagrant foul

then shoves artest and the whole thing started.

i just can´t believe he didn´t get credit for helping this happen. only asmall suspension after, but nobodymentions him one year later when talking about the brawl.

artest is stupid, ok but of all the dumb things he did, i think this was not the worst. shoving pat riley in a game, due to the scenario,i think was even more stupid. nobody was throwing bottles and making flagrant fouls in this one...

 

[Zardoz]

No biggie, but I'm wondering why this isn't in the Sports forum...

 

[a6m5]

one year after, and still nobody put the blame also on the guy who made it all happen:

those who watch the game, can remember.

4th quarter,pacers rolling. artest gets the ball, and dunks hard. ben wallace gets angray at that couple of plays later artest goes to the basket, ben wallace, fouls him. flagrant foul

then shoves artest and the whole thing started.

i just can´t believe he didn´t get credit for helping this happen. only asmall suspension after, but nobodymentions him one year later when talking about the brawl.

artest is stupid, ok but of all the dumb things he did, i think this was not the worst. shoving pat riley in a game, due to the scenario,i think was even more stupid. nobody was throwing bottles and making flagrant fouls in this one...

Because flagrant foul is a flagrant foul. Nothing less, nothing more. Having said that, if I was dishing out punishment on this, I'd have suspended Ben Wallace for 3 - 5 games without pay.

 

[Young_Warrior]

What is your take on this whole incident? Link...>then click on "Video: Watch entire brawl"

Artest, who was the player who started the fight with the fans, was suspended from 73 games.
Is Artest being punished enough, or be letting off easy?

Personally, I think that he's being let of way too easy by the NBA, but we have yet to see if civil charges will be brought against him.

Also, who's at fault? The fans? The players? The NBA?

What do you think should be done in the future to prevent this from happening agian?

73 games whoah thats alot. In the UK they can brawl it out n just get like a 10 match ban.


Ok after having to search for the video and then it not working I watched the slideshow. I have that some of those fans seemed to just be looking for a fight. Especially the one who came up to artest as he was leaving. I think the fans should get banned for the next 5 homes games as punishment. Im surprised that there were hardly any security measures in place to calm things down. Dont they usually have a massive police and security force at these games?