The new Honda Civic Type-R - it's not cracked up to what it should be

[Scaff]

I dont post incorrect info, you guys are just too whimsical over everything. I dont have these credability issues on other forums, and whats even more amusing in fact is that I often get my info from other forums, and no one challenges the original poster on that site. I cant be expected to find every single blicking article I have read as soon as someone requested.

Just how many examples of posting incorrect info do you want?

From memory I can cite the spontaneously combusting Lambo's that also steer into the Armco by themselves, you inane tirade against Toyota reliability based on a few recalls, the Toyota FT-HS Hybrid: 0-60 in 4 seconds thread, or this one....

When was the last time anyone went to lotus for help.....

Ok maybe you americans need it, but I think the germans dont, especially seeing as VAG do have Porsche at hand, and can gain more than enough expertise from lambo, bentley and bugatti products.

...which means you had totally forgotten about the GX3 Concept, developed by Lotus and VW. Not only about as wrong as you can be, but also insulting to Americans in general (why exactly do they need Lotus's help more than anyone else) and Lotus themselves, opps.


I could go on and on, and on. Simply put you have a very nasty habit of stating opinion as fact, and citing unreliable and unchecked sources (Lambo story being a classic point in case).


Now as Famine has asked can we please see the plentiful numbers of sub 1,200 kilo 180bhp+ hot hatches, remember I asked for three. As you claim they are plentiful that should not be too much of a problem. I've done the leg work and had a look at how many exists, now you back up your claim.

As for other sites and if credibility is checked on them, quite honestly that's of no concern to me, but if you cite them as 'proven' sources is it any wonder you are getting pulled up here. Every site I use regularly asks for material to be sourced when possible and if that's not possible for it to be presented as speculation, rather than fact. I've worked most of my adult life in the motor industry and if anyone posts up something that I either know is incorrect or does not feel right then I will question it, you are not being singled out here at all by us, you are doing a fine job of that all by yourself. Check your sources and be sure of what you are claiming, and if shown to be wrong then acknowledge as much and learn from it.




Scaff

 

[niky]

As usual, I stay out of here a week and I come back to find a flamefest.

RE: Autocar versus Car - I used to read Autocar quite a bit before the local edition got pulled out. While they're not as fond of storytelling over a good beer as the guys at Evo, they do have a lot of input from engineers, race-drivers and enthusiasts to back up some of the things they say... and despite being a pretty thin publication compared to Evo, it's just about worth the price for a quick read.

RE: Torsion beam complaints... I did say previously that I thought yon Yanks were being a little hasty in complaining they wouldn't get the "good" one, as they get the Si and not the Type-R, wherein I said "rubbish"... from initial reports... hey, I might be right... along with Toronado, YSSMAN, and a whole bunch of others.

Still, even with the non-Si sedans I've driven, I still have issues with the steering on these new Civics, and I'm hoping further improvements to the programming will get them close to where current hydraulic power-assist racks are now.

Agree with the gearshift thing, though... those things are wonderful on the new car. Too bad the engines are so linear... the ramp-up on VTEC is now completely gone... and that was part of the charm of the earlier cars.

 

[Leonidae]

Jenson Button has test driven the new Type R and he liked it. and I have to admit, that I have a soft spot for it, mostly because of styling.

Spoon has also already done it's magic on the new Type R, resulting as 245bhp, and it also did beat S2000 on wet track.

 

[Scaff]

Jenson Button has test driven the new Type R and he liked it. and I have to admit, that I have a soft spot for it, mostly because of styling.

Spoon has also already done it's magic on the new Type R, resulting as 245bhp, and it also did beat S2000 on wet track.

Now a spoon version does sound rather more interesting, do you have any links to info?

In regard to Jenson Button liking it, not a big surprise, after all if he wants to keep the job he can't say much different.

I do also have a big of a soft spot for the styling of the new Civic, but would never, ever own one. The reason is quite simple, the factory that builds every Civic (and I do mean every Civic) is about 4 miles from my house. As you can guess they employ quite a few people around here, and what do most of them get as company cars or cheap lease plan cars, that's right Civics. One of teh single most common cars in Swindon is the damn Civic.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Race Idiot]

Now a spoon version does sound rather more interesting, do you have any links to info?

In regard to Jenson Button liking it, not a big surprise, after all if he wants to keep the job he can't say much different.

I do also have a big of a soft spot for the styling of the new Civic, but would never, ever own one. The reason is quite simple, the factory that builds every Civic (and I do mean every Civic) is about 4 miles from my house. As you can guess they employ quite a few people around here, and what do most of them get as company cars or cheap lease plan cars, that's right Civics. One of teh single most common cars in Swindon is the damn Civic.


Regards

Scaff

Most spoon cars are demo cars for the parts they make I think. So realy it would be just buying a normal civic type r and getting the spoon parts for it.

 

[Scaff]

Most spoon cars are demo cars for the parts they make I think. So realy it would be just buying a normal civic type r and getting the spoon parts for it.

Yep, having had a look around it would seem that way, they do sell a few models but not in what appears to be any major manner.

I did notice that Spoon Sports Europe are selling the Spoon Sports Honda S2000 and also appear to be importing DC5's ready for race conversion for £13k!!!!!!

http://www.spoonsportseurope.net/cars4sale.php#

They also appear to be based just up the road from me (about 15 miles) which I must confess I was not aware of.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Race Idiot]

Yep, having had a look around it would seem that way, they do sell a few models but not in what appears to be any major manner.

I did notice that Spoon Sports Europe are selling the Spoon Sports Honda S2000 and also appear to be importing DC5's ready for race conversion for £13k!!!!!!

http://www.spoonsportseurope.net/cars4sale.php#

They also appear to be based just up the road from me (about 15 miles) which I must confess I was not aware of.


Regards

Scaff

Oooh wow the S2000 is a hardtop as well! Spoon are an awesome company when it comes to hondas and motorsports. Actually i'm pretty sure they had a fair amount of involvement with one of the old BTCC civics a while back.

 

[jammyozzy]

I'm faily certain they did, Spoon set up a couple of racks of parts outside a honda garage during the pit walk at Donington a couple of years ago. They were outdone when the HPI Racing guys gave up with their real car and started racing R/C trucks around the pitlane instead.

And 13k for a race prep Integra? Damn Spoon are awesome. 👍

 

[Leonidae]

it's a BMI video. still interested, scaff? you know how biased they can be..

New Spoon Honda Civic Type R by BMI

 

[Scaff]

it's a BMI video. still interested, scaff? you know how biased they can be..

New Spoon Honda Civic Type R by BMI

I do know how bad they can be, but its still worth a look.

Thanks 👍

Scaff

 

[Jim Prower]

it's a BMI video. still interested, scaff? you know how biased they can be..

New Spoon Honda Civic Type R by BMI

that one's based on the 4-door...different rear suspension, i'll bet. also not sure if it's a real Type R, since it is a 4-door.

 

[Scaff]

OK Guys my copy of Evo arrived in the post today, with a group test of the following cars.

• Civic Type-R
• Focus ST
• Megane R26
• Leon FR
• Astra VXR
• Golf GTi

And the CTR came........last, with 3.5 out of 5. The Focus got 4 as did the Leon and Astra, the Golf and Megane picked up 5.

The test was carried out both on track and on the road, lap times were as follows (Bedford Autodrome - West Circuit - wet laps)

• Megane R26 - 1.36.05 stability on / 1.36.15 stability off / Lat g 0.78
• Astra VXR - 1.38.25 stability on / 1.40.65 stability off / Lat g 0.71
• Leon FR - 1.40.00 stability on / 1.41.35 stability off / Lat g 0.71
• Golf GTi - 1.41.00 stability on / 1.41.45 stability off / Lat g 0.70
• Civic Type-R - 1.41.45 stability on / 1.42.10 stability off / Lat g 0.69
• Focus ST - 1.42.15 stability on / 1.43.30 stability off / Lat g 0.70

Final comments on the Civic are as follows

Dynamically the new Civic Type-R falls a long way short of the mark, its peculiar steering and inert balance scuppering any chance of it challenging the class leaders. And it really needed an agile, biddable chassis to help keep that sweet-spinning, naturally aspirated VTEC on the boil, because this fine engine flies in the face of the new convention - the turbo enhanced 16 valve four.

This was interesting as well

VSA keeps things reasonably tidy, but when you consider how wonderfully poised and willing the Integra Typre-R was, and even how much more adjustable the last CTR was, you can't help but wonder what's gone wrong.

Of course I would still want to drive one myself (and keep in mind that even if the US get the exact same car, its very unlikely to have the same suspension set-up which could make things a bit better or a bit worse), but that's now a thumbs down from Evo and Autocar and a thumbs up from Car. Personally I know which of these reviews carry the most weight with me.

Regards

Scaff

 

[KSaiyu]

That's dissapointing

 

[Danny]

Well I'm pleased.

 

[KSaiyu]

Aye, that would look good in blue, it's just I was so hyped for the CTR after first seeing the concept photos in Evo so long ago .

 

[Kent]

Indeed, I'm glad to hear of the new Civic's problems.
Fundamentally speaking, above all defense, my 15,800 dollar Corolla S rides on a Torsion Beam Suspension... So does the Euro Civic R.
Don't get me wrong, my 2615lbs. Auto transmission Corolla feels great for what it is, but it's just that- "what it is." The Corolla is not a sports car.

So, sure I like my car but I know good and well the suspension is not up to sports standards...
Now I see consistant reviews of the Euro Civic and I'm dumbfounded, why would Honda step down like that? (or why does anyone do it when they are building a sports car?)

Oh well... Truth be told, I've never been much of a fan of the new Civic's display for the speed and tachometer (not to mention the dash and windshield that go on for miles).

Personally, I'm just glad to have heard the story about "Evo" "Autocar" and "Car."

 

[niky]

What's sad, really, is that McPhersons and a rear torsion beam shouldn't be a barrier to good handling... I mean, look at the older Clio.

It's just that Honda already had the "perfect" set-up with all-around dual wishbones, then went down to McPhersons... took them one model change to fix the front end suspension geometry (at least for the base models) and now they have to find a fix for this new torsion beam, not to mention tackling the challenge of trying to give some feel to their electric power steering. Some people (autoexpress, for example) don't have an issue with it, but I am even further dismayed the more I drive the new Civic... especially when I drive it back to back with a decent car, like the Protege, the Accord, or even the ancient Lancer.

I have a high regard for Honda in their willingness to take on challenges that other automakers won't. It would be much nicer if those challenges weren't mostly self-imposed... "I know, let's try it next time with one hand tied behind our backs... and a crocodile nipping at our toes..."

 

[YSSMAN]

What's sad, really, is that McPhersons and a rear torsion beam shouldn't be a barrier to good handling... I mean, look at the older Clio.

Agreed. Look at a model like the Chevrolet Cobalt SS as a good example in America, and you get the picture. Honda must have really dropped the ball on this one, which is strange, as they are normally the company who sets most of the standards when it comes to small cars like this.

...And yes, I remember the days with the wishbones. Hell, the Prelude I almost got for a first car was the big headline model for that setup, and it worked rather well even for a car in 1989...

 

[Kent]

Agreed. Look at a model like the Chevrolet Cobalt SS as a good example in America, and you get the picture. Honda must have really dropped the ball on this one, which is strange, as they are normally the company who sets most of the standards when it comes to small cars like this.

...And yes, I remember the days with the wishbones. Hell, the Prelude I almost got for a first car was the big headline model for that setup, and it worked rather well even for a car in 1989...

Indeed, that Prelude's suspension gave it room for incredible tuning... I'm sure you guys have seen the Jun Prelude before- that was a fast little car. 👍

Also, I like the fact that you mention the Cobalt SS, mostly because I'd like to see an American car running with the Imports.
That said, I never got to drive an SS model during my tests. I've been able to drive the LS and LT. The LT was much more nice as a car to live with but there doesn't seem to be a difference in the handling. Does the SS get a step up somehow? (springs and camber change maybe?)

Any way, I think Niky made a good point there... The Torsion doesn't need to be a problem for manufacturers.

 

[G.T]

What I find a little odd is why Honda softened the ride of the car. Having frequent rides in a new Civic myself, the ride is FIRM, but I would have thought it's no worse that rival hot hatches. Maybe Honda should have improved on the handling purely instead of trying to soften the ride at the same time...

 

[Scaff]

What's sad, really, is that McPhersons and a rear torsion beam shouldn't be a barrier to good handling... I mean, look at the older Clio.

Quite true and you don't even need to look at the older Clio. The car that won the EVO group test, the Renaultsport Megane runs exactly the same type of rear set-up as the ITR. They are both using a torsion bar with semi-trailing arms, the difference is how these basic components have been utilised.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Jim Prower]

Not to mention every hi-po V-Bug ever built...and the Porsche. Mopar used em on the front of most '60s-70s era cars, though they went the other direction, fore and aft, rather than transversly.

 

[YSSMAN]

That said, I never got to drive an SS model during my tests. I've been able to drive the LS and LT. The LT was much more nice as a car to live with but there doesn't seem to be a difference in the handling. Does the SS get a step up somehow? (springs and camber change maybe?)

The LS I drove handled decently well, with confident cornering at decent rates of speed. From what I remember, the LT and LTZ models do receive a suspension "upgrade" over the standard LS, but Chevrolet says they don't. They do get better rubber with their bigger wheels, which probably adds to the effect overall, but it is the "standard" SS and SS Supercharged that get the high-performance suspensions.

...I know the HHR (same Delta Chassis) gives you two different suspension options on the trim levels, but with that model, a lot of it depends on which engine you choose...

 

[SammiTougeGirl]

Well I dont know if you guys rate TopGear Magazine but they say it kicks ass handling wise just a bit underpowered compared to the competition.
They did a group test with:
Civic Type R - 1.34.3
Megane R36 - 1.30.6
Golf Edition 30 - 1.32.6
Leon Cupra - 1.33.5
3 MPS - 1.32.0
Astra VXR - 1.32.0
Focus ST - 1.33.5
But they say its still the best hot hatch around, just and stig said it was best too.

 

[niky]

Depends on where they did the test.

The difference with Top Gear is that they do most of the race testing on their relatively smooth airport tarmac, while Evo actually goes the extra mile and drives the car over absolutely everything... and the crappiest roads in existence often feature prominently in their testing... Top Gear has some talented writers (Clarkson, in particular), but they're not as thorough in testing as Autocar or Evo.

A car like the Civic would do well on the race track, with stiff suspension and good rubber, but it's on real world B-roads like Evo uses that vices in handling and balance show themselves.

Of course, I dont have that Evo issue yet, so I don't know if they only drove it at Bedford or if they also took it out on the road.

And, of course, again, Evo writers are awesomely nit-picky about steering and handling. They're one of the few groups that actually notice anything wrong with the new Miata. They have some of the most demanding test-drivers around.

 

[G.T]

WhatCar? seems to like the car as well:

http://www.whatcar.co.uk/car-review-full.aspx?RT=2702

As I mentioned in another thread, the Autocar test was taken in the wet, so really they couldn't judge it properly. And with evo, as mentioned above they're pure handling enthusiasts, so they would pick up every little detail wrong with it.

So overall, I don't think the car is as bad as I thought it would be.

 

[skingg]

At first I thought the JDM Civic Type R would be the true Type R successor of the Integra DC5 Type R in Japan :

http://www.honda.co.jp/CIVICTYPE-R/prototype/

Then came news there might be an s2k Type R....

 

[Scaff]

Of course, I dont have that Evo issue yet, so I don't know if they only drove it at Bedford or if they also took it out on the road.

They did both track and on-road tests 👍

scaff

 

[niky]

They did both track and on-road tests 👍

scaff

That would explain it, then.

An ultra-stiff set-up, like I presume this Civic to have, will do well to mask any problems with the chassis and suspension geometry on smoother roads and on the track, but the car will still go to pieces on a nasty, tasty piece of B-road.

 

[Race Idiot]

That would explain it, then.

An ultra-stiff set-up, like I presume this Civic to have, will do well to mask any problems with the chassis and suspension geometry on smoother roads and on the track, but the car will still go to pieces on a nasty, tasty piece of B-road.

I think it was the other way around, like it was terrible on the track but enjoyable on the b-roads.