The New Toyota Supra Vs. Its Key Rivals, By The Numbers

[TomBrady]

I would easily take the Alpine over the rest of them. To me that's the best car by a mile. Mid engine, and very light weight. Can't beat it.

Frankly, the Supra is too heavy and one of my last choices out of the list even taking price into consideration.

 

[Schmiggz]

This new Supra is a beauty. Good job Toyo Boys.

 

[CarGuru]

Toyota did put the Supra in a tough spot however sales wise. Despite technically being a luxury sports car, it is the only non luxury branded one compared to its actual direct competitors (Cayman, Alpine, Z4 etc). Most buyers in that segment (many who care about the brand name), may overlook the Supra, thinking its an overpriced Nissan Z competitor. Meanwhile, people who are looking to buy a Japanese sports car will look at both the Z and the Supra and their similar power figures, and may overlook the fact that the Supra is more expensive due to the luxury interior simply because of the badge, which is a great disadvantage.

 

[GT5 Level 41]

Either Porsche would pull more chicks.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Wouldn't the M240i be even closer competition, both in price and performances?

Actually, come to think of it, the M240i is cheaper, has the exact same engine and can be equipped with a 6-speed manual... And it has a back seat and most likely a bigger trunk.

That's the thing: the M2C actually still works out as cheaper, at least in the UK. Doubt that'll be the case here, but still... the toughest competition will be the in-house stuff.

Whoa! The Cayman comes with a 4 cylinder now?! I did not know that. Is this a Porsche-made engine?

Sadly, it's the worst part of the car.

I mean, it's an absolute peach to drive (in S form, haven't tried the base), and I'd have one over a non-GT 911 any day if it weren't for the engine. It's powerful and doesn't have much turbo lag, but the sound just doesn't match.

Yep. Boxer four turbo. You can get a six, but only on the GT4 and GT4 Clubsport.

Ah, the GT4 — possibly the only unannounced car to rival the Supra in the worst-kept-secret-ever race.

Toyota did put the Supra in a tough spot however sales wise. Despite technically being a luxury sports car, it is the only non luxury branded one compared to its actual direct competitors (Cayman, Alpine, Z4 etc). Most buyers in that segment (many who care about the brand name), may overlook the Supra, thinking its an overpriced Nissan Z competitor. Meanwhile, people who are looking to buy a Japanese sports car will look at both the Z and the Supra and their similar power figures, and may overlook the fact that the Supra is more expensive due to the luxury interior simply because of the badge, which is a great disadvantage.

Perhaps Toyota is banking on the GT-R factor: prior to the R35's launch, there was so much talk of people dismissing it as nothing more than an expensive Datsun, but sure enough it's done alright for itself in the ensuing decade.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Wouldn't the M240i be even closer competition, both in price and performances?

Actually, come to think of it, the M240i is cheaper, has the exact same engine and can be equipped with a 6-speed manual... And it has a back seat and most likely a bigger trunk.

That's the thing: the M2C actually still works out as cheaper, at least in the UK. Doubt that'll be the case here, but still... the toughest competition will be the in-house stuff.

Like the 370Z, the non-M 2-series looks really good on paper but falls apart a bit in the real world. Remember, the 2-series has a chassis that essentially started production in 2011 (the F20), while the Supra sits on stiff new architecture. Having seen a few pre-production journalist reviews, I doubt the Supra will be troubled by the M240i.

However, the widely praised revised M2 is a different kettle of fish and probably will be a thorn in the Supra's side. That power difference is too much to ignore when otherwise the cars share so much on the inside and both drive very well.

 

[mustafur]

If it's the same price as a M2 Competition here then it's going to be over 100k AUD, that's insane for a car like this.

It might sell okay but, no way will it be as close to a Mustang in sales, that car is big enough to be used as a Daily the Supra is more of a weekend Toy.

 

[-Fred-]

That's the thing: the M2C actually still works out as cheaper, at least in the UK. Doubt that'll be the case here, but still... the toughest competition will be the in-house stuff.

BMW USA's website lists the MSRP at 59k for the M2C... Going by your comparison sheets that's pretty much 10k more (Can't wait to see what it'll be like in Canada, as I sadly discovered over the weekend at the MTL AutoShow the MSRP for the M2C comes out at a whopping 76k CAD; the Toyota reps I talked with had no idea about pricing for the Supra north of the border) which is why I suggested the M240i despite its faults, it undercuts the Toyota's price (in the US at least) by a good margin.

If we really want to go left field there's always the C43 AMG coupe that offers similar acceleration and top speed numbers, probably at the cost of handling prouesses. I think it looks a lot better, too.

 

[Polsixe]

At 335 HP and 1574 kg would give a ~ 450 PP in GT6 for the new Supra. That would be similar to the these Gran Turismo 6 cars, performance points:

Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69
Chevrolet Camaro SS '69
Ford Mustang GT '05
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R32) '91
Subaru IMPREZA Sedan WRX STi Version IV '97
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Turbo (J) '96
Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo '96
Nissan SKYLINE Sedan 350GT Type SP '06
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V-spec (R32) '93
Subaru IMPREZA Sedan WRX STi Version III '96
Subaru LEGACY B4 2.0GT spec.B '03
BMW M Coupe '98
Honda NSX '01
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR '05
Spoon S2000 '00
Toyota RSC '01

 

[05XR8]

Again, Toyota aren't making it a best seller in its segment. Toyota are placing the fate of the Supra with those that buy a Supra. People that like the car, the Tuner community, enthusiasts.

It would be the same as a Ferrari. It's a low volume sports car. The Mustang's return to Australia, is unreal. They've smashed their sales targets no doubt.
Supra will be about that cult following like and AE86, GT86, MR-2, any year Supra.

 

[Sage Ages]

Just gonna throw this out there:

The Corvette's 3.7 0-60 time is for the Z51 Package with the 8-speed automatic. a car pushing well beyond $60k.

I have no idea how a base Stingray performs, but supposedly a Z51 with a manual does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. This is probably closer to what you'd expect out of a $55k Vette.

This is still quicker than the Supra, but you're gonna have to spend a pretty penny is you wanna extent that gap.

 

[Aphelion]

At 335 HP and 1574 kg would give a ~ 450 PP in GT6 for the new Supra. That would be similar to the these Gran Turismo 6 cars, performance points:

Chevrolet Camaro Z28 '69
Chevrolet Camaro SS '69
Ford Mustang GT '05
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R (R32) '91
Subaru IMPREZA Sedan WRX STi Version IV '97
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Turbo (J) '96
Mitsubishi GTO Twin Turbo '96
Nissan SKYLINE Sedan 350GT Type SP '06
Nissan SKYLINE GT-R V-spec (R32) '93
Subaru IMPREZA Sedan WRX STi Version III '96
Subaru LEGACY B4 2.0GT spec.B '03
BMW M Coupe '98
Honda NSX '01
Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR '05
Spoon S2000 '00
Toyota RSC '01

Sooooo... absolutely nothing even remotely relevant.

 

[mustafur]

Just gonna throw this out there:

The Corvette's 3.7 0-60 time is for the Z51 Package with the 8-speed automatic. a car pushing well beyond $60k.

I have no idea how a base Stingray performs, but supposedly a Z51 with a manual does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. This is probably closer to what you'd expect out of a $55k Vette.

This is still quicker than the Supra, but you're gonna have to spend a pretty penny is you wanna extent that gap.

Well first we gotta see how fast the Supra really is, numbers is numbers untill you have it's competition on the same peice of tarmac.

So now we wait.

Sooooo... absolutely nothing even remotely relevant.

Especially since Tyre width and chassis come into effect when it comes to GT puting a PP number.

 

[jblackrevo9]

Don't confuse 0-60mph with 0-100km/h, which is 0-62mph. Porsche does indeed claim 4.6s for the manual... from 0-62mph. Industry standard - and I personally hate this - is to subtract 0.2s from the 0-62mph time for 0-60mph, and indeed Porsche USA, which uses 0-60mph rather than 0-100km/h used in Europe, Japan and Australia, has the 4.4s claim.

It's right there in the first post.

View attachment 794306
That's via JATO Dynamics, the industry standard body both in Europe and the USA. The US-market car is slightly different from the European market car - in fact it has a little extra power (480 vs 459, on the same 93MON/95RON fuel; 529Nm is, for reference, 390lbft) - but as it seems to no longer be US market industry practice to give either 0-60mph times or top speeds, I went with the verifiable UK figures. Yes, that made it awkward to find the Corvette figures too, but I did it.

Any 0-60mph time you've seen for the US-market Bullitt is as tested by a magazine or other outlet, rather than from the manufacturer. Ford does mention the 163mph top speed of the Bullitt in pre-release literature, as an 8mph margin over the 155mph GT (both disagreeing with your figures; yes, I can show you the press releases), but thereafter there's been no mention of it. Perhaps it's in the owners' handbook?

I have the new gt which actually tops out at 157mph.

Here’s a video of a guy doing it.




Here’s a guy doing 0-62 mph approximately in a Bullitt




And again it dies not too out at 155.

 

[Famine]

I have the new gt which actually tops out at 157mph.

And as that's not an official, factory-quoted figure, we can't use it. 155mph is though, and both Ford USA and Ford UK quote it for the GT in press releases:

Mustang GT’s retuned 5.0-liter V8 engine packs 460 horsepower and 420 lb.-ft. of torque and tops out at 155 mph.*

*Horsepower and torque ratings achieved with 93-octane fuel.

The original Ford UK Bullitt press release quotes the Ford USA one in full - same power (480), same top speed (163) - but it seems that the UK/Europe car actually has 459hp. I'd guess at emissions for that one, or maybe there's a meaningful difference between US 93MON fuel and European 95RON fuel.

Here’s a guy doing 0-62 mph approximately in a Bullitt

See above. We can't use figures from Youtube, or a mate said this, or my car goes better, or even magazine tests, because they are not the official ones quoted by the manufacturer. We have to use these official figures - and again, I find it odd that US manufacturers are now barely and rarely mentioning performance figures .


It's worth a further note that even factory figures are not entirely gospel. The new BMW Z4 had a 0-60mph time of 4.4s, right up until the Supra arrived and quoted less, despite having less power and a worse power to weight ratio, from the same engine and gearbox. Overnight, BMW "refined" that figure down to 3.9s.

What changed? The car certainly didn't. Some outlets rather kindly suggested that BMW and Toyota have different ways of testing 0-60mph and BMW simply changed its methods in order to reduce the 0-60mph time by 13% overnight...

 

[Gregfranklin]

They are all 2 seat sports cars. Only the Mustang is an outlier, and that's because Ford doesn't have anything closer.

I have a feeling Toyota has setup the Supra's gearbox to excel at 0-60 runs. From a rolling start, I'd imagine a C7 Corvette would freight-train the Supra. Additionally, all the other competitors (except the Alpine) have models or variants above them in performance and price. Meaning, for instance, Porsche is not going to go out of their way to make the Cayman S dash to 60mph in a surprisingly fast time, because that makes the argument for the 911's higher price a little tough to explain. They've geared down or otherwise created space between the Cayman and base 911 since the beginning. The same is less true for the others, but I think still valid. The Supra, on the other hand, can be rated as optimistically as Toyota wants without fear of jeopardizing sales on any other models. A 7AT Nismo 370z should be just as fast in the real world, I would estimate.

As an aside, the whole 0-60 test is years beyond usefulness. It should be replaced with something more telling of the driving experience. Like initial 10 second average accelerative force in Gs. I doubt very many people care specifically how fast their car gets to 60mph, they care more about how fast it feels. It's not just a semantics thing either, it has genuine negative effects. The manual transmission is it on it's deathbed and one of the reasons is that manuals are slower to 60mph. They don't feel any slower (all things equal) in gear during acceleration, but they suck at this test. Also, manufacturers really try to game the 0-60 test and will gear their cars to get the fastest time even if it means the car isn't geared very well. Take the 86/BRZ. Prior to the facelift, the rear axle ratio allowed for the car to hit 60mph in 2nd gear. But that meant it felt undergeared in most driving situations. The facelift brought with it a 4.3 rear axle ratio. Presto, the car feels like it always should have, punchy in the 20-40mph range. But now it will only hit something like 56mph in 2nd gear, which means it looks slower on paper! It doesn't matter if it's faster to 50 AND 70mph, because the arbitrary 60mph target is king. If you accelerated the car from a standstill to it's top speed, and then averaged out the acceleration forces at 10 seconds, 20 seconds, etc (or whatever) it would be apparent that the new car FEELS faster, even if it hits 60mph in a longer mount of time. #endthe60 #rant

Fantastic and accurate explanation.

 

[Ande3200]

The Corvette will eat the supra for breakfast

 

[05XR8]

The Corvette will eat the supra for breakfast

12 years ago, that would have meant something to me.

Cars are fast enough today, a 0-60/0-100 is irrelevant to me. A Nurb time is irrelevant to me. When a hot hatch, can beat a time set by some race cars years ago, it proves the advancement in automobile engineering.

More bang for your buck, is almost irrelevant as well. May as well buy a used Evo or GT-R, tune it and smoke that Corvette and Supra and Mustang.

If I'm shopping in this segment, I'm picking the one I like. I love the Mustang. Wouldn't mind having the Camaro. The C7 looks alright. Cayman is cool and a 370Z still looks the business(just those orange gauges I can't stand). I'd pick the Supra because it's fresh, compact, has the look I'm liking.

I already know it's going to be a quick car. Quick enough for me. If someone wants to blow my doors off at the city speed limit of 60 km/h, I don't condone it, just watch for pedestrians.

 

[CarGuru]

Perhaps Toyota is banking on the GT-R factor: prior to the R35's launch, there was so much talk of people dismissing it as nothing more than an expensive Datsun, but sure enough it's done alright for itself in the ensuing decade.

I don't believe so, because unlike Toyota, Nissan made the R35 a successor that catered to the appeal that the previous generations got, a highly modifiable engine. Also, in regard to some of its fanbase, probably the fact that in the US it was the first time we finally got godzilla overseas. Toyota instead decided to make a Supra that was in a totally new category and a different type of sports car. Almost all of the fans of the MK4 loved it solely for the 2JZ capable of making 1000hp easily. Even though I like the A90, I'm sure Toyota using the "Supra" nameplate to being more attention to their new sports car will backfire and we won't hear the end of all the outcry for quite a while. I also think sales wise, it will sell poorly like the NSX, and both those cars will end up being highly underrated.

 

[bnight]

I wanted to drop my two cents. For me the Supra is a disappointment i recently watched a review on the 1997 Supra that was pristine clean car. And i saw a few in car shows. The new Supra has nothing to do with the old first you have a BMW engine not a Toyota engine and the new BMW engines have reliability issues they are downsized and the more important part is they don't have an after market parts even old models BMW engines lack aftermarket support. I'm actually on the market for a sports coupe so I read the article to see exactly what I was expecting. I'm cross shopping z370 (sadly non sold in my country in the past 3 years so no import), Camaro, Cayman and my favourite the Mustang. Out of all the cars in the list only the Mustang has an aftermarket support that can turn your car north of 1000 bhp. Price wise the new Supra is prised out of the daily sports coupes (GT4) and into GT3 territory with that price I expect really weak sales for few reasons you can buy better car for that price or you can save a few 1000$'s and buy cheaper competitor and spend the difference on mods. The Supra back in the days was the go to tuners car now it's an old guy in Mercedes car and it's priced like one. For me Toyota are just trying to milk the Supra monocle here and i don't see it happening.

 

[Ande3200]

12 years ago, that would have meant something to me.

Cars are fast enough today, a 0-60/0-100 is irrelevant to me. A Nurb time is irrelevant to me. When a hot hatch, can beat a time set by some race cars years ago, it proves the advancement in automobile engineering.

More bang for your buck, is almost irrelevant as well. May as well buy a used Evo or GT-R, tune it and smoke that Corvette and Supra and Mustang.

If I'm shopping in this segment, I'm picking the one I like. I love the Mustang. Wouldn't mind having the Camaro. The C7 looks alright. Cayman is cool and a 370Z still looks the business(just those orange gauges I can't stand). I'd pick the Supra because it's fresh, compact, has the look I'm liking.

I already know it's going to be a quick car. Quick enough for me. If someone wants to blow my doors off at the city speed limit of 60 km/h, I don't condone it, just watch for pedestrians.

I am not talking about lap times, the Corvette has a better Engine sound. And its way faster.
And the Engine is more reliable than Any gtr could ever be. Yes you can upgrade the Power on the gtr, but it won't be as reliable as the corvette,

E.x a Corvette c6 offers more perfomence than Any other sports car for its price if you get a used one and it will still be reliable. Nissan gtr are not reliable same goes for the evo. Not at least if you want it to push the same Power as the Corvette, a bigger Engine has more advantages in many ways.

 

[05XR8]

I am not talking about lap times, the Corvette has a better Engine sound. And its way faster.
And the Engine is more reliable than Any gtr could ever be. Yes you can upgrade the Power on the gtr, but it won't be as reliable as the corvette,

E.x a Corvette c6 offers more perfomence than Any other sports car for its price if you get a used one and it will still be reliable. Nissan gtr are not reliable same goes for the evo. Not at least if you want it to push the same Power as the Corvette, a bigger Engine has more advantages in many ways.

You said the Corvette would eat the Supra for breakfast. That reads like a numbers comparison, rather than an engine sound preference and reliability study.

On my honeymoon, I drove a Hertz C6 Auto convertible for a week(With Competition mode on, make sure that's NOT selected, if you nail the throttle from 80mph on I4). Just about the best red seats in the house for a trip from Orlando to Miami. Awesome car.

I still don't see how it's way faster than the Supra. By numbers posted above, 3.7-3.9 seconds for the C7 vs 4.1 for Supra. That's the width of a gnats derrière.

Have past Supras been more reliable than Corvettes? I have no idea. We won't know how reliable the A90 is, until a few years are logged on its clock. If that's what you meant in the post I quoted, I must have missed something.

 

[Ande3200]

You said the Corvette would eat the Supra for breakfast. That reads like a numbers comparison, rather than an engine sound preference and reliability study.

On my honeymoon, I drove a Hertz C6 Auto convertible for a week(With Competition mode on, make sure that's NOT selected, if you nail the throttle from 80mph on I4). Just about the best red seats in the house for a trip from Orlando to Miami. Awesome car.

I still don't see how it's way faster than the Supra. By numbers posted above, 3.7-3.9 seconds for the C7 vs 4.1 for Supra. That's the width of a gnats derrière.

Have past Supras been more reliable than Corvettes? I have no idea. We won't know how reliable the A90 is, until a few years are logged on its clock. If that's what you meant in the post I quoted, I must have missed something.

Maybe not Much faster to 0-60. But if we talk 100-155 mph. There is a different story. The Corvette would leave the supra so far behind.

 

[Famine]

Maybe not Much faster to 0-60. But if we talk 100-155 mph. There is a different story. The Corvette would leave the supra so far behind.

I'm sure that's a very useful metric for those thinking of overtaking on the Autobahn, but otherwise...

 

[05XR8]

Maybe not Much faster to 0-60. But if we talk 100-155 mph. There is a different story. The Corvette would leave the supra so far behind.

Like I posted elsewhere, when Road & Driver and Car Trend do their obligatory "worlds fastest car on dry lake bed" tests on YouTube, we'll see.

 

[abm89]

Patiently waiting for a decently priced VR swap kit.

 

[Supaboost]

Like I posted elsewhere, when Road & Driver and Car Trend do their obligatory "worlds fastest car on dry lake bed" tests on YouTube, we'll see.

Is there really a need?

Power to weight seals the outcome, 460hp and 3298 lbs. Mkv just cant keep up, its already losing .5 second on 0-60

 

[05XR8]

Is there really a need?

Power to weight seals the outcome, 460hp and 3298 lbs. Mkv just cant keep up, its already losing .5 second on 0-60

Well, I have seen a video where they put a BRZ or some slower car , in the line up versus super cars.
So, that's up to them.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Either Porsche would pull more chicks.

...and more dicks.

 

[Tornado]

I am not talking about lap times, the Corvette has a better Engine sound. And its way faster.
And the Engine is more reliable than Any gtr could ever be. Yes you can upgrade the Power on the gtr, but it won't be as reliable as the corvette,

"And I can drive the Corvette in Forza."