The Return of Touring Car Racing?

[JohnBM01]

GT2 had a Special Race series where you raced Touring Cars. What is that touring car racing I'm bringing up? Well, look below.

Touring car racing is traditionally a style of saloon car racing where cars look and perform pretty much at stock performance. Many series have more of economy cars without too much regulation in terms of what a car can and can't have. GT2 featured mostly race-modified sedans and coupes, many of which were FWD. However, there are a few RWD and even 4WD cars. Take America's SPEED Touring Car series. The Turner Motorsports team campaigns tuned BMW's. British Touring Car (one of my personal favorites) had a driver named Kurt Luby which campaigned a black Lexus IS200. I think GT5 has to see the return of touring car racing despite the fact there are a few touring cars in GT4. People will normally criticize FWD cars as being boring cars capable of very little. Touring car racing will offer many FWD and some of the other drivetrains a chance to compete in heated competition. I tuned up a 2003 Honda Accord in GT4 as my own little touring car. But that's not to mention that I tried modding up a UV Blue-colored 2006 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT. I think the series will benefit from touring car racing.

If this is implemented successfully, one of two or three things can happen:

1.) Touring car racing returns and is mainly focused on traditional economy cars tuned for touring car racing.
2.) Touring car racing returns but is only focused on more powerful and faster touring cars (for example, Alfa Romeo's 155 Touring Cars which have been great Supertouring competitors)
3.) Touring car racing returns and will offer three classes of racing- regular touring car racing with lightly-tuned economy cars, touring car racing with more powerful factory-style touring cars, or even a combination of regular touring cars vs. works touring cars

GTPlanet... if Touring Car racing were to return in GT5, how would you want to see touring car racing implemented? What would be your suggestions for the style of racing it brings? And again, I think this will give the kinds of cars people like to bash as giving them a chance to compete in very competitive racing. So if you think a Civic sedan or a Neon are good for nothing in most Gran Turismo races, then it can REALLY show its strength in a competitive environment as touring car racing. It's just another way to give more series more types of racing in GT games, which is a bigtime plus for GT gamers.

Well, what do you think? Start now by replying.

 

[Impreza04]

Agreed..

However GT4 did have a few old DTM cars, CLK, Astra, Calibra etc

 

[Schrodes]

Touring car racing is my favourite form of motorsport. Cars that are the racing version of the car you or I can drive on the road. "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" was a popular phrase associated with touring car racing here in Australia. Given that touring cars are the racing cousins of the cars we drive every day I feel that touring cars have been under-represented in Gran Turismo.
This thread should have been made last week John, it is the perfect place for my write up on Australian Cars in the Historic Sports Cars thread. For those who want to read about Australian cars and touring cars have a look at post 45 and 56 here and see and read about the Touring Cars I would like to see in GT5.

 

[Niels]

Thats one awsome idea there m8:tup:
It would bring some variation, and it would be a step in between the super touring cars and the normal stock cars.
It's something in between and it would help to guide you through a realistic carreer, if it's implemented well in GT5.

Cause GT4 has a transformation of going from stock cars to a Nissan 350Z LM car, I want a step in between so that you can enjoy the game much longer.
Rep points underway:tup:!

 

[Jim Prower]

I'd like to see a V8-Supercar-style Formula with more makes.

 

[JohnBM01]

Here comes some touring cars for you all. These are only a few of the world's touring car series that I found while here at school:

--- GENERAL INFO ---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_car_racing

--- TOURING CARS ---
http://www.world-challenge.com/ (SPEED World Challenge - Touring Car)
http://www.btccpages.com/ (British Touring Car Championship)
http://www.afos.com/atcs.php (Asian Touring Car Championship)
http://www.eurostc.com/ (European Touring Car Championship/World Touring Car Championship)

The Wikipedia deal talks about touring in regards to NASCAR. I've even heard of "NASCAR Touring." But we're talking about real, traditional touring cars. The classic ToCA games on the PS1 were excellent at capturing the very essence of touring car racing. The good game killed by a bad title and NASCAR to world-class racing (good call, Codemasters. Dopes...) was "Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing," in which there were a number of different street cars modded to being great touring cars. The series included some more unique candidates for this 1999-ish game. Examples include the Lincoln LS, Ford Taurus, Fiat Marea, Ford Falcon, Holden Commodore, Toyota Camry, and even a FWD Mitsubishi Lancer. The obvious modification to make would be Racing Modifications. In GT2, you could take a Honda Accord, Vauxhall Astra, Peugeot 406, Renault Laguna, or even a BMW 320i(?) and give them Racing Modifications to make them bona fide touring cars. I probably liked the Renault Laguna as a personal touring car, but I had the disadvantage of low top speed. I ended up being overtaken at times on speedy courses like Red Rock Valley and Grindelwald (there's a HUGE following to want to see this track return).

The best thing PD can do is offer a number of economy cars that would fit the bill as likely touring car candidates. The majority of cars eligible for touring car action are commercially-available economy cars. The majority of touring cars are FWD like the Vauxhall Astra and the Chevrolet Lacetti(?). Some are RWD like the Lexus IS200 and the BMW 320i(?). I think finding RWD touring cars will be a bit more challenging because I normally think people associate RWD with pure sports cars. Not many economy cars are RWD, especially not any to be within the realm of cheaply-priced economy cars. There are some 4WD touring cars, but they are far and between. The more popular ones I've seen were mostly Audis. You know what you're getting with Audi Quattro 4WD, so a few Audi touring cars (especially 4WD) would be nice for 4WD touring car racing. The obvious advantage is better control in the corners in addition to better acceleration. I can recall when the Audis raced in Speed GT and got superb launches from the line. Michael Galati even piloted Audi to win the manufacturer's crown, not to mention the series championship. There has to be some cars either ready to be tuned for Touring Car action, or already-made touring cars such as the Integra Touring Car and the Mazda 6 Touring Car. My suggestion- a good selection of economy cars to take from boring day-to-day cars to fun race cars. Sports car types won't like it, but we're not talking about sports cars here now, are we? There has to be some quality touring car candidates to be used and tuned for touring car racing from basically every nationality in the next GT, unless there are no true economy cars made from a certain nationality.

This was a lot, but carry on with your ideas, if you please.

 

[sxy rider 39]

What GT2 had which was also kind of like touring cars was "Racing Mods" which gave your car a new paint job and body kit. I've really missed that feature in GT3 and GT4. In Gt4 you could add a wing in order to add downforce, but the cars still looked pretty much stock.

 

[BMWteamPTG]

pretty much stock, sometimes they looked like ricers. they really do need to bring back the racing mods feature to allow a non-stock look.

 

[GT40 MKII]

sounds like a good idea

 

[Schrodes]

Brad Jones was very successful with Audi in the very short life span of Super Touring here. I remember the racing mods you could do to cars in GT2. I made a series for two player mode using modified cars. The cars had the racing kit fitted and were tuned for equal performance. I think they were all within about one second at the Seattle circuit. I have been doing a similar thing with GT4 but with historic cars. They don't have the aero kits fitted but they are all within a second at Grand Valley. I was going to run an OLR series with these cars but lost interest.
It would be nice to have real touring cars and their corresponding championships in GT5 but if they include more cars you can create a grid of equal touring cars. The problem is and the problem I have now is that there is nowhere to race except maybe the family cup.

 

[Tenacious D]

Huh, interesting. I wasn't up on what exactly made a car a Touring Car, thought they were in the game already, so yes I'd like this very much.

Keep in mind that if GT5 has body kits and a good paint shop, you have your racing conversion for any car you own! I'm very hopeful that this is included in GT5.

 

[JohnBM01]

I've never really considered DTM as touring car racing, but it is. I was getting more about low-level, not really powerful touring car racing like ToCA or something. That's what I was getting at all thread long.

Even though the series is long gone, I'd still want to see the series champion of the now defunct North American Touring Car Championship (NATCC). David Donohue won the championship in a Dodge Stratus back in 1997 or 1998. Here is a replica of David Donohue's car followed by a real picture and then another NATCC Stratus:

http://gpma.org/Archive/ssdodge.html
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~markusn/racing/stratus8.jpg (David Donohue)
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~markusn/racing/stratus7.jpg (Dominic Dobson)

The NATCC was so unsuccessful, take a look at this entry list for Mid-Ohio. Yes, this is the ENTRY LIST for Mid-Ohio in 1997 for the NATCC:

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=9891&FS=NATCC

More on NATCC's downfall:

http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=23338


I'd include some of the [few] cars from this series. After all, they were the first champions... and coincidentally the last. Only fact I can provide about the series is that David Donohue won every race except the final race at Laguna Seca. Sad to see this series not prosper. But of course, we do have SPEED Touring Car in the States. I know Forza included SPEED GT cars, but I don't think SPEED Touring Car is in. But that's my premise. Realtime Acura is perhaps one of the best teams in the series' history. Another great team is Turner Motorsports and their BMW effort. The most unique touring cars I seen in the series was a Volkswagen New Beetle. I don't care much for actual series, but I'd surely want to see the BTCC's cars make its way into GT5 for fans of the series. They have hard-fought racing and a dose of drama at times. Just that it isn't like NASCAR, which almost completely lacks drama.

Carry on if you wish.

 

[L8 Apex]

I'd love to see some dedicated touring car races included in GT5. But in order to keep the racing nice and close, I propose dividing GT5's tin-top world into three seperate classes:

Touring 1: V8 Supercars, DTM (Old and New), Star V8, old school big-bore touring cars (e.g. Rover Vitesse, Jaguar XJC, Mercedes-AMG 6.8, Holden Torana A9X, etc.) any other high-power touring cars and race-modified production sedans (e.g. Altezza LM Edition, BMW M5, Cadillac CTS-V Speed GT, Lotus Carlton, etc.).

Touring 2: FIA ETCC/WTCC cars, BTCC, STW, Speed Touring Car, Grand Am Cup Sport Touring, any other mid-range touring cars and race modified production sedans (e.g. Citroën C5, Nissan Primera, Chevrolet Malibu, etc.).

Touring 3: Old school small displacement touring cars (e.g. Abarth 600, NSU TT, Mini Cooper 1275, Saab 96 V4, Lancia Fulvia, etc.), VW Polo Cup Cars, VW Lupo Cup Cars, Nissan March Trophy Cars, any other small touring cars or modern race modified subcompacts (e.g. Toyota Yaris/Vitz, Renault Twingo, Spoon Fit, smart forfour, Nissan be-1, Hyundai Accent, Opel Corsa GSi, Subaru Pleo, etc.).

That's just me, though.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> Heh, heh, I miss the [R]Castrol-Honda Accord Touring Car from GT1 and GT2 and that [R]Renault Laguna on GT2. (:

-> I think PD needs to bring those cool touring cars back in GT5 especially the [R]Audi A4 USTC, [R]Volvo 850 BTCC, and the [R]Honda Accord BTCC. (:

 

[Tenacious D]

L8 Apex, that sounds like a great set of racing divisions! I can just imagine the spitting sizzling rattling noises of those small engine race cars on my stereo, and the images on my hidef TV. I usually like a bit more in a race car, but I'm looking forward to everything the PS3 can throw at me.

 

[Jim Prower]

Here's my own touring car series idea

RULES

V8, Front Engine, Rear Drive.
Large Midsize/Small Fullsize Sedan
patterened after V8 Supercars Austrailia

Eligible Cars
Audi S6 Race Car '06 (RWD)
Bentley Arnage T Race Car '06
BMW M5 Race Car '03
BMW 550i Race Car '06
Cadillac STS-V Race Car '06
Chevrolet Impala SS Race Car '96
Chrysler 300C SRT-8 Race Car '06
Dodge Charger SRT-8 Race Car '06 (Note: NOT NEXTEL CUP)
Ford Crown Victoria Race Car '06
Ford Falcon V8 Supercar Works '06
Ford Falcon V8 Supercar Caterpillar '06 (If they're still running that one)
Holden Commodore V8 Supercar K-mart '06
Holden Commodore V8 Supercar Works '06
Infiniti M45 Race Car '06
Jaguar S-Type R Race Car '06
Lexus GS430 Race Car '06
Lincoln LS Race Car '06
Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG Race Car '06
Mercury Marauder Race Car '03
Volkswagen Phaeton V8 Race Car '06 (RWD)

Other possible cars
6-cyl Sedans with enough power, correct size, and RWD
Impala SS Race Car '06 (RWD)
Oldsmobile Aurora Race Car '02 (RWD)

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ Nice concept there! But I don't want to see those cars in the lower (engine) class gets left behind like those BTCC, WTC, SCCA, Speed Touring Car Series, Asian Touring cars, etc. (:

 

[Dave A]

I think the lower powered race cars have alot more character in GT4 than car's like the GT500's up, the Clio race car for example, the BMW Touring car, the Calibra touring car, the RE Amemiya RX-7, they're a lot moer fun to drive imo.

 

[BMWteamPTG]

I think the lower powered race cars have alot more character in GT4 than car's like the GT500's up, the Clio race car for example, the BMW Touring car, the Calibra touring car, the RE Amemiya RX-7, they're a lot moer fun to drive imo.

i couldnt agree more. id rather be racing around in a "touring car' rather than a class c racer. just more fun, more character (in my eyes)

 

[Mt. Lynx]

I´d like to see more cars from the ETCC/WTCC. The only one present in GT4 is the BMW 320i TC. Where are the Alfa Romeos, Cadillacs or Seats? They are all present as manufacturers, but these wonderful cars were left out for some reason. Hope PD amends that for GT5!

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

^ I hope they will, and I hope they won't end up like Vector and Venturi ( completely gone).

 

[JohnBM01]

Time for a little Gran Turismo old school.

Gran Turismo 2's Super Touring Trophy consisted of five races at Apricot Hill, Trial Mountain, Laguna Seca, Deep Forest, and Rome Circuit. Some of the cars used (based on GT2 previews of races) are based on street cars that can be modified to Touring Car spec. The cars featured are likely candidates for touring car racing. Here are some of the touring cars I've found in previews:

[R] Honda Civic 3-Door Si - 1993
[R] Peugeot 406 Sedan - (late 1990s)
[R] Toyota Exiv 200GT - (late 1990s)
[R] Toyota Chaser Tourer S - 1996
[R] Honda Accord SiR-T - 1998
[R] Honda Accord Sedan - 1996
[R] Nissan Infiniti G20 2.0 Te - 1991
[R] Nissan Infiniti G20 - 1998
[R] Opel Vectra GSi 2.5 V6 - (late 1990s)
[R] Renaul Laguna V6 (late 1990s)

You can enter many more cars for Touring Car entry. You can also just put in any car you liked in GT2 only as long as it wasn't over the horsepower quota. I even raced a 1990s Camaro in this series from my memory. Some of the real touring cars probably can't be raced in Super Touring Trophy action, especially not the Alfa Romeo 155 Touring Car. It looks more like the Alfa Romeo touring car in GT4, only that one has REAL sponsorship. The series has started to get a few more licensed cars and more realistic paintschemes nowadays. Finding more touring cars... that will be under review for me in GT2. Here are a few cars I've bought in GT2 and can be modded up in touring car spec:

BMW 320Ci
Opel Astra
Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (J) - 1999
Mitsubishi Asti RX-R (J) - 1998
Nissan Sunny VZ-R - 199?
(Toyota Altezza/Lexus IS200 series)
Toyota SS-II Elegant Sports Version - 1999
Honda Accord Type-R - 199?
Toyota Chaser TRD Sports X30 (J) - 199? (really wicked looking Super Touring-type car!)
Ford Mondeo GhiaX 2.5i 24V
Dodge Neon (both the ACR and R/T)
Acura Integra GS-R - 1998 (It's the only Acura Integra that can be race-modified)
Alfa Romeo 155 2.0 TS 16V
Alfa Romeo 156 2.5V V6 24V
Renault Megane (can also double as Rally Car)
Lancia Y (this was just for fun. Ugly car. Uglier race-modified.)
Mazda Protogé GT-X - 1992
Subaru Legacy B4
Honda Prelude VTEC - 1994
Honda Civic Sedan - 1993
Toyota Corolla Levin BZG - 1996

That's only a marginal list of cars that can be modded for Touring Car racing. The big surprise for cars that can be modified to Touring Car spec is that the 1998(?) Dodge Stratus can't be Race Modified. This is despite the fact that it was the winning car of the long-defunct North American Touring Car Championship with David Donahue behind the wheel. I find that really weird even though this game was made in 1999 and the NATCC was in 1997. Want to continue the discussion? You can!

 

[MustangSVT]

I believe GTR 2 will feature not only the FIA GT cars from season 03 and 04, but also WTCC cars.

I personally think there should be more cars featured from these series and more races on this in the career mode.

Higher Class - DTM & V8 Supercars
Lower Class - ETCC, WTCC, BTCC, Speed GT Challenge, Grand Am Rolex Series

Any improvement on this would be nice though. I bet a lot of people would be pleased if they saw 10-15 ETCC cars in the game and 10ish V8 Supercars as well and have some racing series in the game for them.

 

[joseph dobson]

I think that there should all sorts of different race classes like, LMES. ALSM, BTCC, DTM (i really want the Audi A4 race car to be in GT5!!), F1, A1, rally, and definetly, FIA GT so then we can race the DBR9, and Ferrari 550 LM! if ferrari's are in GT5!

If they had all of these in like TRD3 then GT5 would be a great driving and even racing game!

 

[wee_man]

John do you watch much of the BTCC over in the states? I would of thought it nigh impossible to watch it? How do you know about it?
It's a fantastic series, if you ever do get the chance I really recommend worth watching it. I think probably the most exciting race series I've ever watched, on TV and in real life.

 

[Dave A]

They should have a proper touring car series in GT5 the rules would be something like thise.
Coupe, Saloon or hatchback's only.
Car must (in road form) be able to seat four or more people.
Power limited to 340bhp (this could vary if you had several diferent touring car series, you could have a JTCC type challenege with 200bhp cars, an international series with 300bhp car's, a supertourers series with 340bhp car's and then maybe a fictional one with 400bhp car's or 450bhp car's, that'd be cool. Then these rules would be expanded to include what can and can't enter the DTM style race, it'd still have to be a coupe, saloon or hatchback and n road trim be able to seat four or more people, but it'd have certain engine and aerodynamic restrictions as well.

 

[JohnBM01]

I'll throw in this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_car_racing

Speed shows British GT in America, but usually in between October to December. The feed to the rest of the world (thank God!) is usually when NASCAR is all done. I actually consider the BTCC a bit like NASCAR, only with real cars and real race tracks and real drama.

I necessarily don't agree in having actual series in Gran Turismo since the game is not based on any true series, even since there is the JGTC/Super GT and DTM featured. We may make a case for a prototypcial new championship. There has to be some great disparity among the different cars. Sports car people may hate this, but there has to be some more economy coupes and sedans to make for a purely-legit series. That's because many touring cars are based on sporty coupes and sedans. Road coupes and sedans will have to be fully modified to take advantage of Touring Car treatment (Racing Modification nonwithstanding). A region-based collection of series is certainly doable. The American sector would comprise of cars like the Dodge Neon, Ford Fusion, Chevrolet Cobalt, and stuff like that. We can make a case for several European divisions with cars such as the Vauxhall/Opel Astra, Peugeot 307 Sedan, Alfa Romeo 156, BMW 330i, Ford Mondeo, and all that. The Asian region would feature eligible cars from Proton, Mazda, Honda, Hyundai, Toyota, and Nissan among others. An Australian Touring Car deal is sketchy to me. Maybe I'm thinking of touring cars too much as affordable FWD sedans and coupes, so that's why I'm unsure of seeing Holdens and Fords (Australia) in a makeshift, production-based touring car championship apart from the V8 Supercars.

Another interesting aspect is to perhaps consider touring and super touring superstars. This can mean anything from Mini Coopers to big Vauxhalls of the 1960s, to the Dodge Stratus NATCC, which was the first (and only) champion of this defunct series, all the way to Alfa Romeo's dominance in super touring. We can stretch this thing out and still have a lot of series and cars we can all agree on.

 

[Schrodes]

An Australian Touring Car deal is sketchy to me. Maybe I'm thinking of touring cars too much as affordable FWD sedans and coupes, so that's why I'm unsure of seeing Holdens and Fords (Australia) in a makeshift, production-based touring car championship apart from the V8 Supercars.

Don't get stuck in a mindset where you think about a V8 Supercar whenever you think about an Australian Touring Car. We have two series here where there are V8s racing against other cars. One is the Performance Car Championship where you have HSV GTSs and FPV GT Falcons against RX7s, Imprezas and Lancers. The other is the Australian Production Car Championship where Holden Commodore SSs and Ford Falcon XR8s race against other production cars. There are five different classes and the V8 class is the quickest but there was a Subaru Liberty giving them a run a few years ago.
A touring car is generally a racing car that looks like it's roadgoing counterpart and has the same specification (if modified) engine and transmission layout. A fantasy touring car race might include the following: Holden Monaro and Commodore, Ford Falcon and Mustang, Pontiac GTO, Chrysler 300C, Dodge Charger, Bentley Arnage, BMW 550i and 650Ci, Jaguar XJ8, Lexus LX430, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes C55 AMG and SL500 or almost any front engined V8 powered car.
I totally see where you are coming from John, when you talk about touring cars usually being smaller cars but this is not always the case. Bigger more powerful cars can be paritised to bring them back to the slower cars and are often at a disadvantage anyway being heavier and harder on tyres and slower through turns so a GT5 Touring Car race won't have to be just Super Tourer or S2000 type cars.

 

[Dave A]

A touring car has to be based on a car (how loosely based depends on the series) that seats 4 or more people in road form, the engine and transmission can be completely different to the road car's, infact, the actual race car's used in some cases (I'm thinking DTM here) can be purpose built, ground up sihouette racer's, that merely share a look with a road car, but arn't based on one at all. The AVSECO V8 supercar's are touring car's, then you have the more affordable touring car's you have things like the Renault Clio cup race's, the BTCC, the ETCC, the JTCC which all use race modified road car's, a BTCC and an ETCC car can use any transmision and drivetrain that company has in any of it's model range, for instance, you could enter a car that in road trim has a 1.6 liter engine, but you could put a 2.0 in from another model lineup you also produce. However in the two classes I mentioned then, a 2.0 engine is the biggest you can go for, but it can be an i4, i6, V6, V8, as long as it's no bigger than 2.0.

 

[Tenacious D]

You guys are making me hungry.

I've completed all of Gran Turismo 4 and Forza except for the endurance races, and a couple of GT4 missions. With E3 just a week away (this wednesday), I'm famished for some news on both of the sequels. I want them badly. I'd LOVE for them to be like Toca 3 in scope, especially GT5. For some reason, I feel like Forza should stay closer to its tarmac roots, but if they branch out like that, I wouldn't complain.

But I really want both games to have a deep, full featured Career Mode which mirrors real life and gives you lifelike advancement and challenges. Along with that, a good Touring Car series or two would be superb.

Sony's press conference is a week from monday, maybe we'll get an hors d'oeurve.