The Trump Impeachment Thread

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Will the current Articles of Impeachment ever be sent from the House to the Senate?

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One of the comments on that article read:
"When the people's representatives start voting 'secretly' the concept of a free and independent nation is gone forever. And you can kiss the ideal of 'democracy' goodbye too. Flake is suggesting tyranny."

I had the exact opposite reaction. I my first thought was "Wow, how bad is it that republicans are that afraid to do the right thing that they need a secret ballot to feel safe enough to vote Trump out."
 
Rallywagon
One of the comments on that article read:
"When the people's representatives start voting 'secretly' the concept of a free and independent nation is gone forever. And you can kiss the ideal of 'democracy' goodbye too. Flake is suggesting tyranny."

I had the exact opposite reaction. I my first thought was "Wow, how bad is it that republicans are that afraid to do the right thing that they need a secret ballot to feel safe enough to vote Trump out."
Click to expand...
I think this is the conclusion most never-Trumpers would come to having read the article which, unsurprisingly, also has its fair share of garbage comments.

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Rallywagon
I had the exact opposite reaction. I my first thought was "Wow, how bad is it that republicans are that afraid to do the right thing that they need a secret ballot to feel safe enough to vote Trump out."
Click to expand...

It's the prisoner's dilemma. A single game of the prisoner's dilemma has a net expected loss for the players, that's the US people we're talking about.

For the uninitiated. In the prisoner's dilemma, two people are accused of a crime. They'll both do time if they both remain silent, but they're given the option of going free if they rat on the other one. If you remain silent but your buddy rats, you get maximum jail time. If you talk and your buddy talks, you each get convicted of part of the maximum crime. So the table looks like this:

prisoners-dilemma-1-56a27d973df78cf77276a49b.jpg


The optimal outcome is for both to not confess. But note that if you confess your expected return across your buddy's choices is better than if you don't confess. So the best choice is to confess (from a statistics perspective). The Trump prisoner's dilemma would be adjusted like this:

Confess = acquit
Don't confess = convict.

The best possible outcome is for you and your buddies to convict. But if they don't convict and you do, you lose big. So you choose acquit (a worse return) because it's safer statistically.
 
Danoff
It's the prisoner's dilemma. A single game of the prisoner's dilemma has a net expected loss for the players, that's the US people we're talking about.

For the uninitiated. In the prisoner's dilemma, two people are accused of a crime. They'll both do time if they both remain silent, but they're given the option of going free if they rat on the other one. If you remain silent but your buddy rats, you get maximum jail time. If you talk and your buddy talks, you each get convicted of part of the maximum crime. So the table looks like this:

prisoners-dilemma-1-56a27d973df78cf77276a49b.jpg


The optimal outcome is for both to not confess. But note that if you confess your expected return across your buddy's choices is better than if you don't confess. So the best choice is to confess (from a statistics perspective). The Trump prisoner's dilemma would be adjusted like this:

Confess = acquit
Don't confess = convict.

The best possible outcome is for you and your buddies to convict. But if they don't convict and you do, you lose big. So you choose acquit (a worse return) because it's safer statistically.
Click to expand...

Christmas games at the Danoff's? ;)
 
Danoff
This year my household is hosting a die hard MAGA Trumper climate change denier, and a die harder Vegan climate alarmist pseudo-communist ultra Trump hater. They are not currently on speaking terms, and both will be present for Christmas day.

Wish me luck!
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Okay so what you do is have them stand facing each other and put a knife on the floor between them. When they bend over simultaneously to grab it, they clunk heads and thump down on the floor unconscious.
 
ryzno
Dude, stop acting like the Dems are Mr. Perfect and do nothing wrong...
You know what I meant.
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? I think you are misunderstanding. I didnt understand that specific comment. what do you mean with said in reverse?

I dont act like democrats are perfect at all. You know I dont have any political affiliation with both parties. And i really dont know what you mean? That strategy has been an exclusive tool for republicans these past few years. Could you help me with an example?
 
PocketZeven
? I think you are misunderstanding. I didnt understand that specific comment. what do you mean with said in reverse?

I dont act like democrats are perfect at all. You know I dont have any political affiliation with both parties. And i really dont know what you mean? That strategy has been an exclusive tool for republicans these past few years. Could you help me with an example?
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I think this is the point rynzo. I'm not sure anyone here is a rabid "Democrat". We all understand the US political system is deeply compromised ... & in fact it is in most/all countries. Most of us (there are a few exceptions) understand that it's not reasonable to expect "perfection" - what we do hope for is something "reasonable". The US political system, in particular, relies on "checks & balances", but what has happened under Trump is that the GOP has lost its will to act as a check on Trump's excesses ... & that's why we've ended up where we are today.
 
Biggles
I think this is the point rynzo. I'm not sure anyone here is a rabid "Democrat". We all understand the US political system is deeply compromised ... & in fact it is in most/all countries. Most of us (there are a few exceptions) understand that it's not reasonable to expect "perfection" - what we do hope for is something "reasonable". The US political system, in particular, relies on "checks & balances", but what has happened under Trump is that the GOP has lost its will to act as a check on Trump's excesses ... & that's why we've ended up where we are today.
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I call out republicans for their unreasonable behavior and probably as a result of Trump being president. If a democrat does the same I will call him out as well. I am truly trying to look at it from a neutral point of view. @ryzno said that the same can be said about democrats, however I do not see that happening.
 
PocketZeven
? I think you are misunderstanding. I didnt understand that specific comment. what do you mean with said in reverse?

I dont act like democrats are perfect at all. You know I dont have any political affiliation with both parties. And i really dont know what you mean? That strategy has been an exclusive tool for republicans these past few years. Could you help me with an example?
Click to expand...
Sander001 is always posting left leaning memes. While TexRex made a great joke. I was referring that the right could make the exact same claim.

I already know I'm gonna get roasted for this but...
Biden withheld money.
Trump withheld money.
Both sides cry he's guilty while both sides are guilty.
The pots are calling the kettles black.

I guess I need to go back to using (/s) again...

It was just supposed to be a joke, even though it is true.

I know Biggles. I know.

The right and a few of us here did call it out PZ, but it was shrugged off and everyone says well Trump is President, best place to stop corruption is with him...

Anyways my point was the post references the Nazis, who the left calls the right. When the left is just as guilty.
 
ryzno
Sander001 is always posting left leaning memes. While TexRex made a great joke. I was referring that the right could make the exact same claim.

I already know I'm gonna get roasted for this but...
Biden withheld money.
Trump withheld money.
Both sides cry he's guilty while both sides are guilty.
The pots are calling the kettles black.

I guess I need to go back to using (/s) again...

It was just supposed to be a joke, even though it is true.

I know Biggles. I know.

The right and a few of us here did call it out PZ, but it was shrugged off and everyone says well Trump is President, best place to stop corruption is with him...

Anyways my point was the post references the Nazis, who the left calls the right. When the left is just as guilty.
Click to expand...

I meant accusing the other side of what you are guilty of.

Trump wasnt guilty of withholding money. He was guilty of asking a foreign power to investigate a political rival.

I think you fell in the goalpost trap of the Pro Trump media.
 
TenEightyOne
Biden was part of the administration (as VP) that provided US troops and $2billion to Ukraine. What did he withold in a capacity as a White House employee?
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The money he held and threatened to keep if he didn't get what he wanted in 6 hours before he left. The video was posted here.
------
They both withheld money PZ...

I give up. We've talked about this stuff before! now everyone acts like it's new news! SMH!

It's Beer 30 and the game is about to start. Y'all take it easy!
 
ryzno
The money he held and threatened to keep if he didn't get what he wanted in 6 hours before he left. The video was posted here.
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That would be the $1 billion in loan guarantees secured with the assistance of international donors, not congressionally appropriated funds that cannot be impounded without prior permission from Congress per the Impoundment Control Act of 1974. Details.
 
ryzno
The money he held and threatened to keep if he didn't get what he wanted in 6 hours before he left. The video was posted here.
------
They both withheld money PZ...

I give up. We've talked about this stuff before! now everyone acts like it's new news! SMH!

It's Beer 30 and the game is about to start. Y'all take it easy!
Click to expand...


TexRex
That would be the $1 billion in loan guarantees secured with the assistance of international donors, not congressionally appropriated funds that cannot be impounded without prior permission from Congress per the Impoundment Control Act of 1974. Details.
Click to expand...

It is irrelevant even if Biden withtheld money to get shokin fired to stop him from investigating Burisma. Because Biden is not a sitting president and he did not do it to influence a domestic election.

The complete point is that someone else being guilty of the same crime, does not magically make Trump innocent.

Withholding funds is not what Trump is impeached for. There are 2 articles: abuse of power and obstuction of congress.
 
PocketZeven
Trump wasnt guilty of withholding money.
Click to expand...
He is, actually. His having withheld aid is actually a big chunk of the abuse of power aspect of impeachment. He violated the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, which was passed to reinforce the control over the purse that only Congress possesses.

PocketZeven
It is irrelevant even if Biden withtheld money to get shokin fired to stop him from investigating Burisma. Because Biden is not a sitting president and he did not do it to influence a domestic election.
Click to expand...
It's not irrelevant, actually. But what is also relevant is what was withheld. Had Biden, even not as executive officer, rather an agent of government, withheld the very same aid that Trump withheld, he'd be in hot water. And rightfully so. "ICA74" is there to reign rein* in the president specifically, but violation of it (which is to say impoundment of congressionally appropriated funds without prior approval from Congress) is violation of it regardless of who violates it.

*Edit to replace the incorrect homonym with the correct one.
 
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TexRex
He is, actually. His having withheld aid is actually a big chunk of the abuse of power aspect of impeachment. He violated the Impoundment Control Act of 1974, which was passed to reinforce the control over the purse that only Congress possesses.
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It is to keep the impeachment on focus. That is what I meant with irrelevant.
The greatest threat that Trump caused is asking a foreign power to discredit a political rival (twice) and not adhering to congressional subpoenas.

I know, I know Trump is guilty of much much more, but that is not what he is impeached for.
 

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