The visual detail that drives me mad...

[SimTourist]

Another example of stagnation I can give, in GT5 when you raced at night the street lights would cast shadows on your car and across the interior, those that played it will most likely know what I'm talking about, here's a small example

The kick in the teeth? Such feature is not in any Forza, GT Sport, PCars and so on. None of them have dynamic shadows when passing under a street light. That was on a 2006 machine with 512 mb of RAM.

 

[AlienDeathRay]

I know this sort of answer very well and always am prepared to respond to this.
My response would be that a racing game is not only about the driving experience concerning the physics but is an overall package. And of course the visuals count into it. And yes, especially when i drive down a straight i have more than enough time to look also a bit around. When i take a corner my eye catches a glimpse of the curb-texture, of the ground texture next to the track etc. Even if you dont necessarily focus the 2D tree, you see the difference because its in your field of view. You'd like the game to be top notch as it gets on all levels, not only car models, not only physics model but also texture work and details of the track. The more real the track looks the more it adds to the overall immersion. So please, stop with this "This is a RACING game" argument as it just says absolutely nothing. Also, i dont get what this is to you? Its not like the game would suffer if we get better trees. Obviously the focus will always be physics and car models and the rest comes after that. So i don't get why you get so worked up about it. So its no point in belittleing me good sir ("Go play Farming Simulator 7").

I have been playing video games since they were invented, and that's a long time. That being said, this is the best "Racing Game" I have ever played. I haven't played them all, and quite frankly I don't want to invest all my time and money in doing so. So many people come on this message forum and bash this game as if it was a "Stone Age" 8 bit arcade game. "The Trees are 2D", "the sound is terrible", "it doesn't have this car, or that car", "the Vehicle Physics is wrong" blah, blah blah. There is only so much data you can put into a game. 3D mapping trees and infinite background mapping, means sacrificing other data, like cars, tracks, the types of races, or the amount of cars racing at the same time. That doesn't even include the licensing fees for Vehicles and Places. Is this game perfect? No. But what you are asking for is 5-10 years down the road in game development. After almost 6 months playing this game I have almost 800 cars, and can race them on hundreds of different courses, by myself, against other drivers, against my friends, and set times to beat against other drivers all over the world. I haven't gotten bored with this game yet, and I don't see that happening anytime soon.
What about my Racing Game comment is wrong? Or off-base? This is NOT a RACING GAME? Oh I see, it's a "drive around the country side and lets look at the pretty flowers and beautiful trees simulator". (SARCASM, ).This game is still better than all the others, even if the background was completely black. I'm not trying to offend you or anyone else. I'm simply trying to point out that, if you render all the examples you gave, in perfect 3D, we'd be missing out on a whole lot of other stuff in the game. Years from now, when your dream game is released, I am sure that it will be spectacular.

 

[th3o]

...

I dont know how old you are, i am 37 and started gaming in the late 1980s on a Spectrum when you were still loading games from a casette (lol).
The best racing game i ever played was Indycar 2 from Papyrus.
As for nowadays games. As a total package Forza 7 is unbeatable. But the sheer fun of driving and the feeling of vibrancy and visceral impact of the several aspects of the game, for me AC, GTS and PCars2 are all ahead of Forza 7. Its no bashing as i try to also explain (in other threads/posts) why i feel like that. Its not like i call the game names and leave it at that. The contrary is in fact true. Because of the sheer amount of cars and tracks i so wish the game would do better in some other aspects (trees are not the issue here btw).

 

[turk1993]

I still hold the opinion that the most realistic lighting Forza has ever achieved was in the Top Gear Test Track Homespace back in Forza 4, it just looked right and the closest to GT they ever got. On track current gen Forzas don't measure up to Forza 4 in a lot of cases as well, car reflections got severely downgraded and look really fake in FM7, when you're in cockpit/hood/1st person, your car has no reflection and same goes for AI cars as well, they all look matte and really poor, GT for example renders reflection in all view going as far back as GT3, although this is corrected on Xbonex. Overall the lighting engine is just really dated and has it's roots in the PS2 generation of systems. FM7 has a hard time compared even to GT5 Prologue from 2007, a 10 year old game. You can't take a shot that looks comparable in FM7.i

I'm sorry if my post is provoking, I'm a big fan of Forza and defended plenty of it's qualities, but sometimes I fire up those older games and wonder why the 10 years of advancement isn't showing up on my screen.

Mate those are bullshots. GT5 & 6 look like this in the actual gameplay

and for Forza, Forza does a lot of other things better than GT/PC/AC/...

Still room for improvements, but saying gt5 and 6 looked better when even GTS and PC2 have there own faults is a bit nonsense.

 

[AlienDeathRay]

I dont know how old you are, i am 37 and started gaming in the late 1980s on a Spectrum when you were still loading games from a casette (lol).
The best racing game i ever played was Indycar 2 from Papyrus.
As for nowadays games. As a total package Forza 7 is unbeatable. But the sheer fun of driving and the feeling of vibrancy and visceral impact of the several aspects of the game, for me AC, GTS and PCars2 are all ahead of Forza 7. Its no bashing as i try to also explain (in other threads/posts) why i feel like that. Its not like i call the game names and leave it at that. The contrary is in fact true. Because of the sheer amount of cars and tracks i so wish the game would do better in some other aspects (trees are not the issue here btw).

I'm considerably older than you, and I was playing video games, computer games, and arcade games before you were born. Not that it makes me any kind of expert, and it is certainly not much of an accomplishment, it just proves I'm old. But your point about what FM7 doesn't have graphically doesn't hold. FM7 has much more graphically going on than any other title. You've got helicopters flying around, planes taking off or landing (at Rio), background traffic in the distance at Dubai, not to mention the cars you're racing (up to 23 of them). Those are just a FEW examples. Then take a look at the lighting effects, sun glare at Nurburgring and Mount Panorama, rain effects on the tracks with rain, ( you can change the intensity of the thunderstorm/rain beginning to end), night time racing at Daytona, VIR, Sebring, and the (poor fireworks displays, those they can do A LOT Better). I raced the GMC Vandura van at Laguna Seca, using the far chase cam, I can see the reflections in the rear windows of everything that I pass by and the cars that are behind. Then throw in the Online Multiplayer and League Hoppers, up to 24 different cars racing at the same time with data coming in real time from all over the world. That is quite an accomplishment. (there are still a bunch of bugs, as the cars some times jerk about all over the track). Sure, they can throw all that away, and do a better graphical job on just the background and track rendering and the cars. But what you'll end up with is, a game with only a few cars and a few tracks and a lot less functionality. Honestly, I'd get a little bored after a while.

 

[th3o]

@AlienDeathRay
All things you mentioned in the first half ouf your post are of course nice because they add to the tracks feeling more "alive". True. But what i mean are more technical things.
For example i take issue with the fact that the tree shadows are baked in and always are in the same place no matter where the sun is standing. Thats very odd if you have an eye for these things. Then i find that the cars overall reflections and the way they cast shadows is cut down (i would understand if its like this on console becuase you need to make the game run on a certain system, but why do i not get it better on the PC?). Cars for example dont reflect in or dont throw shadows on other cars. Overall the reflections of the environment on the cars is sometimes non existent, i mentioned earlier that cars tend to look almost matte, which makes them not look as implemented in the environment as they could be.
The lighting system in the game is to me sub par compared to GT Sport and PCars 2 because i feel that you have in Forza 7 some sort of hazyness no matter if the sun is way up there or low. The game has a dim look to it and when you compare it to gameplay videos of the same time of day with PCars2 or GTS you would see a difference.
Then i have a problem with the brake and tail lights of the cars. Sometimes in dark conditions some cars dont even have tail lights on, especially in night races this can look very odd when driving in the field of cars. And in general the brightness or intensity of the tail and brake lights is very low (compare to GT Sport for example).
Again: I dont say that the game does not look good, by god no. I just say that these aspects do bother me.

And on another note, i have my problem with the Forza characteristic handling model on gamepad.
What do i mean by that? The speed sensitivity setting is not adjustable in the game. Compare to other games it feels its amped up to 100% in FM7. You never get real understeer because the car just does not steer in. If you are too fast you dont slide out of a corner pushing over the front tyres. Your car simply won't turn the wheels in FM7 and thats very noticeable while driving.
Also i have never seen a game where the cars have so much lift-off-snap-oversteering. I actually dont know whats up with their physics system in place, but literally, no other game does it to that extent and there are quite a few videos on youtube where professional racing drivers take to FM7 and say flat out that the very race car which they drive in real life and then in FM7 does not behave like that at all.
Jan Seyffarth for example, a german race car driver took the AMG GT3 car (he drives that exact same car in real life) on the Nurburgring and did a few laps and he constantly complained about the fact that the car oversteers way to much, out of nothing. He was constantly saying "What is this? This is not what it behaves like in real life"

So yeah, those would be a few points where i feel the series could improve with entry #8.

 

[notsofast]

Speaking of night and rain I did my first night race with rain at Le Mans recently and I loved the atmosphere.

 

[th3o]

Speaking of night and rain I did my first night race with rain at Le Mans recently and I loved the atmosphere.

You can not do night race with rain in Forza 7.
It's either rain or night.

 

[turk1993]

You can not do night race with rain in Forza 7.
It's either rain or night.

Maybe not late night but it can get pretty dark with rain too

 

[Dopplegagger]

Mate those are bullshots. GT5 & 6 look like this in the actual gameplay

and for Forza, Forza does a lot of other things better than GT/PC/AC/...

Still room for improvements, but saying gt5 and 6 looked better when even GTS and PC2 have there own faults is a bit nonsense.

Calling GT for "Bullshots" and then posting pictures of Forza in photomode is pot-kettle. Yes, you didn't change any of the sliders, but in Photo mode Forza adds some post processing to what you focus on. Essentillay becoming it's own "Bullshot" generator.

Just to prove my point. Please note that I am playing on PC @1080p 75fps. The top is a screen grab, the bottom is Photomode with all sliders in the default position. The only thing I didn't do was "Focus" on the car.

If photomode added nothing, then the default sliders would have given me all the anti-aliasing issues the screen grab has. But that's clearly not the case.

 

[turk1993]

Calling GT for "Bullshots" and then posting pictures of Forza in photomode is pot-kettle. Yes, you didn't change any of the sliders, but in Photo mode Forza adds some post processing to what you focus on. Essentillay becoming it's own "Bullshot" generator.

Im playing on pc maxed out thats how its looks 99% and the 3rd one is from gameplay. GT5/6 on the other hand doesn't look anywhere close to the pictures of Simtourist in gameplay.

 

[Dopplegagger]

There's still a difference between your screen grab, and what you get in Photo Mode.


:edit:
Look at the lid lines on the Panamera in the screen grab and Photo Mode. The in game shot has lower Anti-Aliasing than in Photo Mode. Even details in the distance appear to be smoothened out in Photo Mode.

 

[turk1993]

There's still a difference between your screen grab, and what you get in Photo Mode.


:edit:
Look at the lid lines on the Panamera in the screen grab and Photo Mode. The in game shot has lower Anti-Aliasing than in Photo Mode. Even details in the distance appear to be smoothened out in Photo Mode.

I can just turn on downsampling to 4K (wich is on 1440p right now) en add 8xAA and get smoother image if you want. Just like i said 99% the same.

 

[Nacho Libre]

Essentially I don't see much difference between the above screen grabs and the photomode. What I can tell is that GT6 (I have it) quite never looked like its publicity, whether photos or trailers, including the intro movie.

 

[Dopplegagger]

I can just turn on downsampling to 4K (wich is on 1440p right now) en add 8xAA and get smoother image if you want. Just like i said 99% the same.

And yet, that 1% is still 1% of additional post processing added to Photo Mode.

 

[turk1993]

And yet, that 1% is still 1% of additional post processing added to Photo Mode.

So can you tell me what it does then? What does it add? What changes?

 

[Dopplegagger]

Essentially I don't see much difference between the above screen grabs and the photomode. What I can tell is that GT6 (I have it) quite never looked like its publicity, whether photos or trailers, including the intro movie.

You'd have to look at the full size images to see the differences in the ones I posted. On a phone or with out the ability to see the full size images, they look the same. At 1080p the differences are instantly noticeable.

 

[turk1993]

You'd have to look at the full size images to see the differences in the ones I posted. On a phone or with out the ability to see the full size images, they look the same. At 1080p the differences are instantly noticeable.

Turn off your aperture you will get the same result, btw gameplay shot looks better.

 

[Dopplegagger]

So can you tell me what it does then? What does it add? What changes?

I believe I already did. Look at my edit inserted pics in post #40. You may need to see them at their actual size to see the difference

 

[turk1993]

I believe I already did. Look at my edit inserted pics in post #40. You may need to see them at their actual size to see the difference

Im looking on my 55inch tv al i see is slightly blurry image(photomode shot).

 

[turk1993]

Here i grabbed some shots nothing different on my end.

 

[Dopplegagger]

You're 1/2 way there. Now compare them to screen grabs at the exact same point. Go ahead and down sample if you want to.

 

[turk1993]

You're 1/2 way there. Now compare them to screen grabs at the exact same point. Go ahead and down sample if you want to.

First and third are photomode and the other 2 are gameplay .

 

[Dopplegagger]

Im looking on my 55inch tv al i see is slightly blurry image(photomode shot).

Yours is bigger than mine, apparently.

Here's my perspective, because being vague has only made this more complicated than it needed to be.

I'm gaming in a dimly lit room with a 3 year old 1080p Monitor. I bought it new last summer but, it's been on sale since the Methuselah walked the earth, in my opinion. That aside, my example still shows that Forza changes the graphics once one enters Photo Mode. If it were really a 1:1 rendition, then setting the camera to it's default settings and snapping a similar scene, should have given an indistinguishable result. The fact that it doesn't shows that something is happening, even with my lowly peasant of a 27" 1080p display.

Add in the ability to make things look better (or in my case worse) than the game looks while playing it, and it becomes clear that Forza's Photo Mode is a "bullshot" generator in it's own right.

 

[Dopplegagger]

First and third are photomode and the other 2 are gameplay .

Good work with that. Lets examine them later. I have boxes to kick.




:edit - I couldn't resist:

I looked briefly. There are differences. Better AA on the Photo Mode. It took zooming into the pic to see it.

 

[turk1993]

Yours is bigger than mine, apparently.

Here's my perspective, because being vague has only made this more complicated than it needed to be.

I'm gaming in a dimly lit room with a 3 year old 1080p Monitor. I bought it new last summer but, it's been on sale since the Methuselah walked the earth, in my opinion. That aside, my example still shows that Forza changes the graphics once one enters Photo Mode. If it were really a 1:1 rendition, then setting the camera to it's default settings and snapping a similar scene, should have given an indistinguishable result. The fact that it doesn't shows that something is happening, even with my lowly peasant of a 27" 1080p display.

Add in the ability to make things look better (or in my case worse) than the game looks while playing it, and it becomes clear that Forza's Photo Mode is a "bullshot" generator in it's own right.

When you need to zoom that much or have to look on a big screen to see a sightly different blur or line i think its unfaire to call it bullshot generator.

 

[Dopplegagger]

When you need to zoom that much or have to look on a big screen to see a sightly different blur or line i think its unfaire to call it bullshot generator.

If a pic receives any alteration that makes it non-indicative of how the game looks when playing it, makes it a bullshot generator.

 

[notsofast]

You can not do night race with rain in Forza 7.
It's either rain or night.

Never knew that but it was certainly dark so maybe I mistook the weather for night. Its the last race of the career race series featuring Group C cars (i forget the exact name of the division).

 

[th3o]

Never knew that but it was certainly dark so maybe I mistook the weather for night. Its the last race of the career race series featuring Group C cars (i forget the exact name of the division).

When you have "lightning rain" it can get pretty dark, thats true. I dont know if it gets even darker when the actual time of day of the track is late afternoon or if the actual time of day has no effect on that particular rain condition. Maybe its the same darkness when the time of day is midday.

@ Topic
But as for the general discussion here. For me its most important from a visual standpoint how cars look on the track and i feel that in Forza 7 they look a bit detached from their environment, and this starts with the poor reflections and the self-shadowing of cars. Also, the 3D rims become flat 2D textures once cars go over a certain speed and it looks really really bad when you are next to them or overtake them. They look really like computer game car models, wheras in AC for example the 3D rim is always there, the reflections and ambient occlusion of the cars are better, giving the cars a more realistic look on the track in movement. Also the visual body roll is done better in all the other three 'competitors' of FM7. In FM7 cars come across too stiff. All these aspects are the result of Turn10 trying to pull of native 4k on the X and implementing the various dynamic elements to the game. But i feel that the trade off is not worth it.
Recently Team VVV brought out on their channel several videos where they discuss the current racing games, giving out 'Awards' for several categories. Their biggest complaints with FM7 actually align with mine. Playing it too safe, lighting model not on par with the competition, car models on track looking a bit dated, handling model a bit strange.

 

[turk1993]

When you have "lightning rain" it can get pretty dark, thats true. I dont know if it gets even darker when the actual time of day of the track is late afternoon or if the actual time of day has no effect on that particular rain condition. Maybe its the same darkness when the time of day is midday.

@ Topic
But as for the general discussion here. For me its most important from a visual standpoint how cars look on the track and i feel that in Forza 7 they look a bit detached from their environment, and this starts with the poor reflections and the self-shadowing of cars. Also, the 3D rims become flat 2D textures once cars go over a certain speed and it looks really really bad when you are next to them or overtake them. They look really like computer game car models, wheras in AC for example the 3D rim is always there, the reflections and ambient occlusion of the cars are better, giving the cars a more realistic look on the track in movement. Also the visual body roll is done better in all the other three 'competitors' of FM7. In FM7 cars come across too stiff. All these aspects are the result of Turn10 trying to pull of native 4k on the X and implementing the various dynamic elements to the game. But i feel that the trade off is not worth it.
Recently Team VVV brought out on their channel several videos where they discuss the current racing games, giving out 'Awards' for several categories. Their biggest complaints with FM7 actually align with mine. Playing it too safe, lighting model not on par with the competition, car models on track looking a bit dated, handling model a bit strange.

How are the car models on track dated ? Forza has the highest quality car model in gameplay compared to the other games. You guys are really exaggerating when it comes to lighting in Forza. This is not on par with competition? In some areas it even excels.

But with the 3d rim thing you right and for body roll i think there needs to be a midden ground between GTS and Forza. That would be the sweet spot for car movement.