- 10,116
- Maryland, USA
- swift-bass
Third US school shooting in a week.
- Thread starter jammyozzy
- 57 comments
- 2,316 views
- 1,795
No. It is NOT because of gun laws (and let's not turn this into a gun control debate, I belive there's already a thread for that). I believe it just has to do with the US having a larger population. The more total people running around, the more of them are likely to be complete nutjobs. The percentage is probably roughly the same throughout the world, so the bigger countries will naturally have more crazy people in the loose.
- 7,956
- BradleyH131
Which would explain why America had 95 times the amount of gun related deaths compared to Japan in 1994. (The earliest statistic I could find). Despite having just double the population.
- 5,611
- Gabkicks
- GabkicksX
meh... some countries have mass genocide. Also everyone is watching America. Everyone's eager and willing to point fingers. 
I think we americans could be better educated overall on mental wellness. I'm sure most of the world could as well... So much mental illness goes untreated...
I think we americans could be better educated overall on mental wellness. I'm sure most of the world could as well... So much mental illness goes untreated...
- 3,425
So .... What is your point ? Statistics can be made to say anything and prove any point and will prove both sides of an argument...and aside from the fact that culture and other factors are not represented by numbers nor is , education , level of income , accidental and unreported death , suicide , death by defensive actions deaths by police actions .
You just wasted a whole page for nothing .
The nitwit went into a building without a phone and tied up little girls and molested them ...he could have just as easily cut their throats as shot them . UNLESS someone who was armed was available to kill him first . Like the teacher with a .357 magnum in her desk drawer and pms .
Your an idiot if you think a gun did anything to those kids...a sick twisted freak did it .
You just wasted a whole page for nothing .
The nitwit went into a building without a phone and tied up little girls and molested them ...he could have just as easily cut their throats as shot them . UNLESS someone who was armed was available to kill him first . Like the teacher with a .357 magnum in her desk drawer and pms .
Your an idiot if you think a gun did anything to those kids...a sick twisted freak did it .
- 1,795
Exactly. Without clarification, statistics are nothing more than a list of numbers.
Also true. I'm no more likely to get killed in the states than I am in England or Canda. It's just that in those countries, it would more likely be with a knife. Violent crimes can be done with weapons other than firearms, afterall.
It is never the weapon that kills, only the person behind the weapon. Weapons are nothing more than tools, and can be used for good or for evil, but are not either, in and of themselves.
Okay, I'm done ranting, now.
- 26,628
- OREGON
- a6m5zero
There's also been a report of Charles Roberts confessing to someone(I believe to his wife over the phone) that he's molested young kids in the family, around 20 years ago.Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Jeffrey Miller
This coward took the easy way out. IMO, this man did not deserve an instant death. Or even an death penalty. As I thought about this tragedy today, I seriously thought that anyone who commits similar types of crime should have their arms surgically removed, in prevention of repeat offense.
I'm obviously overreacting, but that's how mad a crime like this make me. Did anyone here watch Nightline, last night? That reporter damn near broke into tears! I couldn't remember his name to save my life, but he was one of the veteran reporters, too. I don't know what happend to Roberts 20 years ago, but this whiny little _____ had no right to take his anger out on these innocent kids.
He brought in weapons and enough ammunition, even a roll of toilet paper. He planned all this, and it was a very evil plan. He knew exactly what he was doing.
- 3,425
Somewhere around here I had a thread that discussed why it is that Americans of this era find no problem with putting bullets into each other .
It is a cultural and societal problem. Guns and ammo were just as prevelent in the 50's to the 80's yet we didn't feel the need to shoot each other as much as we do today...and I am talking weapons per person or per capita.
It is now fashionable to not only have served time in prison but to have shot someone or have been shot..bullet wounds are a badge of honor...in some American sub -cultures. And violence in general is an accepted fact of life in most URBAN areas in the US...where it just so happens most Americans seem to live .
Until this changes you can fire every gun on earth into mars orbit...all that will do is bring back swords and spears and clubs into fashion. Unless you remove the DESIRE and the MINDSET that makes a person decide its no big deal to shoot someone or a bunch of someones....nothing will change .
The bodies will pile up with different types of trauma ...but pile up they will .
Liberal idiots and gun controll advocates be damned...they will just be stabbed and skewered and blunt traumatised instead of ventilated by copper jacketed lead projectiles.
It is a cultural and societal problem. Guns and ammo were just as prevelent in the 50's to the 80's yet we didn't feel the need to shoot each other as much as we do today...and I am talking weapons per person or per capita.
It is now fashionable to not only have served time in prison but to have shot someone or have been shot..bullet wounds are a badge of honor...in some American sub -cultures. And violence in general is an accepted fact of life in most URBAN areas in the US...where it just so happens most Americans seem to live .
Until this changes you can fire every gun on earth into mars orbit...all that will do is bring back swords and spears and clubs into fashion. Unless you remove the DESIRE and the MINDSET that makes a person decide its no big deal to shoot someone or a bunch of someones....nothing will change .
The bodies will pile up with different types of trauma ...but pile up they will .
Liberal idiots and gun controll advocates be damned...they will just be stabbed and skewered and blunt traumatised instead of ventilated by copper jacketed lead projectiles.
- 3,425
This guy planned on being in there molesting the little girls for a while before he butchered them...he picked an Amish school house because they had no PHONE and no PHONES within any close distance and he nailed the doors shut .
The only thing that could have stopped him is a teacher with a gun in the drawer..a coincidental visit by a police officer..or a person with a carry permit..or if he took a stroke on his way to the school or his truck exploaded.
A sick twisted freak that snaps is not going to be stopped 99.99 % of the time .
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Actually, in this case teh police couldn't get to him to even get a shot off. He was in close quarters and a knife would have been just as threatening.
If you think that someone wielding a blade in close quarters is not a threat then I refer you to how the hijackers took the planes on 9/11. There wasn't a single gun used.
The only time you need a gun is against other guns, because you never bring a knife to a gun fight. But if there are no guns any deadly weapon will work, and I have a kitchen full of them.
- 19,311
- Inland Empire SoCal
- SOLID_LIFTERS
Sorry to go off topic a bit, but Rosie O'Douchebag is at it again. Read this show script to see what's she's saying, now.
OÂ’Donnell: "I think the horror of imagining six to thirteen-year-old girls handcuffed together and shot execution style, one by one, is perhaps enough to awaken the nation that maybe we need some stricter gun control laws."
This quickly led to an exchange with the programÂ’s token conservative, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, in which OÂ’Donnell asserted that there is no right to own a gun:
Hasselbeck: "So you canÂ’t- You can't take way the right to, to bear arms."
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, itÂ’s not really a right. ThereÂ’s debate as to what that-"
Hasselbeck: "It is a right. ItÂ’s in our Constitution. ItÂ’s the Second Amendment."
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, letÂ’s talk instead of yell."
Hasselbeck: "IÂ’m not yelling."
OÂ’Donnell quickly expanded the discussion into an attack on the NRA:
OÂ’Donnell: "I know that the Constitution has been interpreted many, many times. In our country the president puts his hand on the Bible and swears to uphold the Constitution. In the United States there is debate over whether or not the right to bear arms includes the lobby organization of the NRA, allowing no rules and no registration and absolutely, sort of, carte blanche, to make guns available to Americans in a way they're not in the rest of the world."
Hasselbeck initially attempted to placate the comedian on the October 3 show, but quickly abandoned it in favor of a vigorous defense of the Second Amendment:
Hasselbeck: "There should be- There should be a middle ground. There should be a middle ground."
Walters: "Well, there are some gun control. I mean, without guns-"
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, what about this? The firearm death rate among children in America 0 to 14 is 12 times higher then all 25 other industrialized nation combined. Combined."
Hasselbeck: "What about the fact that firearms- Well, firearms are used 60 times more to defend people then they are to take a life in this country, too. ThatÂ’s another statistic. This is why we have the debate."
OÂ’Donnell attempted to interrupt, but Hasselbeck quickly cut her off and delivered a second argument for the right to bear arms:
OÂ’Donnell: "I know, but maybe-"
Hasselbeck: "These things confuse us as, as Americans, but, in, in the results of children dying kind of bring it to a front, they bring it right to a boil. And that's why we have this discussion. That should not happen. But you have to remember that people protect themselves. In the times of segregation, when there were bigoted officers out there trying to just rule over and have government tyranny, people had to defend themselves somehow and they did it with guns."
The liberal members of "The View" responded to HasselbeckÂ’s firm arguments by resorting to typical liberal cliches:
OÂ’Donnell: "You can find an automobile that has a VIN number, if an automobile is stolen and you can trace it back to where the person bought the car and who bought it."
Behar: "DonÂ’t tell them how to get it."
Hasselbeck: "You can. You can. I found out that I had a lemon that way."
OÂ’Donnell: "You can buy a gun in America and it is not licensed. We can't trace who bought it, who owned it or who is responsible. ThatÂ’s wrong."
This is a tired argument by the gun control crowd. If you have to get a licence to drive, why not to own a gun? The simple answer is that driving a car is a privilege, not a right. Whether OÂ’Donnell likes it or not, the right to own a gun is in the Second Amendment of the Constitution.
A few minutes later, the discussion turned to what would have happened if the shooter didnÂ’t have a gun. Once again, it was left to Hasselbeck to make the obvious point:
OÂ’Donnell: "If the man had a knife and he walked in there and there were adult women there and the man said I would like the women to leave because I'm going to keep the girls, I guarantee you, if that man did not have a gun, the mothers who were the teachers in that school would never have left those children alone in that room. Never."
Hasselbeck: "What if they had a gun? What if- Hang on, let's just flip it. IÂ’m saying, letÂ’s discuss all sides. What if, What if those women had guns on them and were able to defend themselves?"
OÂ’Donnell: So youÂ’re saying, you think we should arm teachers?"
Hasselbeck: "I'm not saying teachers should be armed. I'm just giving you the flip side of this situation-"
OÂ’Donnell: "But the flip side is youÂ’re saying-"
Hasselbeck: "-that is a lot of times guns are used to protect people, so we canÂ’t be so extreme."
Co-host Joy Behar, a short time later, brought up the second liberal cliche about guns:
Behar: "I think people want to hunt, that's a right as youÂ’re describing with their rifles. Why do they need an AK--47? Are these deer in the Israeli army?"
[Applause]
Behar: "What is the purpose of a machine gun to hunt with? Now that should be outlawed. Do you agree?"
Walters: Most people do not hunt with-"
Hasselbeck: "I would agree with that. And if you're a good hunter, you don't need that type of weapon."
Walters: "They don't hunt with machine guns."
Yes, surprisingly, Barbara Walters provided the voice of reason. Hunters donÂ’t use machine guns to kill deer. But why would anyone expect Joy Behar to know that? All she knows about hunters are the grotesque stereotypes that people like Rosie OÂ’Donnell propagate. OÂ’Donnell demonstrated clear ignorance about firearms with her next point:
OÂ’Donnell: "But Barbara Walters. In America, itÂ’s shocking that one is able to purchase an AK-47."
Walters: IÂ’m agreeing with you."
Behar: "Why do they have them?"
OÂ’Donnell: "Right. Because it is a $6 billion industry. And they have way to much power in a democracy, if you ask me."
In fact, it is very difficult to purchase an AK-47. But, again, why expect Rosie OÂ’Donnell to be knowledgeable about a subject? ItÂ’s so much more fun to be emotional.
HasselbeckÂ’s reply, and Rosie's closing comment, hinted that viewers have not seen the last of such fierce debates on the ABC program:
Hasselbeck: "Well, the problem is statistics too. Because if you have restrictions, um, on guns, are not showing the results weÂ’d like. You know what I mean?"
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, youÂ’re wrong, Elisabeth. And IÂ’ll give you all the information at the commercial. WeÂ’re going to take a break and come back after this with more hot topics to annoy, IÂ’m sure, a lot of people at home."
Rosie is one of the most despicable women of all time. Either as an enormous ignoramus or a unscrupulous tyrant, Rosie posses no regard for our Second Amendment, and her resolve to disarm moral private citizens, is a great threat to our rights, liberties and safety. Rosie has constantly spouted lies and untruths to further her agenda and they cannot be believed. To do so would prove ignorance. To agree with this evil, disturbed women is proof of one's lack of good judgment, reason, honor, equality and intelligence.
Furthermore, to prove her interpretation of our Second Amendment is grossly inaccurate and erroneous, I've pointed out quotes of our great forefathers regarding the TRUE meaning of our Second Amendment. Enjoy.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against
tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.
"...to disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380.
"Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to
raise an army upon their ruins." -Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789.
"...the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." -Trench Coxe in "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution." Under the pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1.
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms..." -Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Member of the First U.S. Senate.
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." -Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Peirce & Hale,
eds., Boston, 1850.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all
that is good." -George Washington
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to
the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walk." -Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, 318 (Foley, Ed., reissued 1967)
"That the Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent "the people" of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." -Samuel Adams in arguing for a Bill of Rights, from the book "Massachusetts," published by Pierce & Hale, Boston, 1850, pg.
86-87.
"The militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves.. . . [T]he Constitution ought to secure a genuine and guard
against a select militia, by providing that the militia shall always be kept well organized, armed, and disciplined, and include . . . all
men capable of bearing arms..." -Richard Henry Lee, "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic," (1788) p. 169.
"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free
state; that standing armies in time of peace should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be
under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." -George Mason, Article 13 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776.
"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the
power to disarm the people." -William Rawle, 1825; He was offered the position of the first U.S. Attorney General, by President Washington.
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well-armed, and well-regulated militia being the best
security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in
person." -James Madison, 4th President of the United States, I Annuals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789). [This was Madison's original proposal for what became the Second Amendment.]
A free people ought...to be armed..." -George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790.
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?
Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management
of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or
equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" -Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d Ed. Philadelphia, 1836.
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, June 1776.
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may
exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person,
freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press." -Thomas Jefferson
"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense..." -John Adams, A defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788).
OÂ’Donnell: "I think the horror of imagining six to thirteen-year-old girls handcuffed together and shot execution style, one by one, is perhaps enough to awaken the nation that maybe we need some stricter gun control laws."
This quickly led to an exchange with the programÂ’s token conservative, Elisabeth Hasselbeck, in which OÂ’Donnell asserted that there is no right to own a gun:
Hasselbeck: "So you canÂ’t- You can't take way the right to, to bear arms."
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, itÂ’s not really a right. ThereÂ’s debate as to what that-"
Hasselbeck: "It is a right. ItÂ’s in our Constitution. ItÂ’s the Second Amendment."
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, letÂ’s talk instead of yell."
Hasselbeck: "IÂ’m not yelling."
OÂ’Donnell quickly expanded the discussion into an attack on the NRA:
OÂ’Donnell: "I know that the Constitution has been interpreted many, many times. In our country the president puts his hand on the Bible and swears to uphold the Constitution. In the United States there is debate over whether or not the right to bear arms includes the lobby organization of the NRA, allowing no rules and no registration and absolutely, sort of, carte blanche, to make guns available to Americans in a way they're not in the rest of the world."
Hasselbeck initially attempted to placate the comedian on the October 3 show, but quickly abandoned it in favor of a vigorous defense of the Second Amendment:
Hasselbeck: "There should be- There should be a middle ground. There should be a middle ground."
Walters: "Well, there are some gun control. I mean, without guns-"
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, what about this? The firearm death rate among children in America 0 to 14 is 12 times higher then all 25 other industrialized nation combined. Combined."
Hasselbeck: "What about the fact that firearms- Well, firearms are used 60 times more to defend people then they are to take a life in this country, too. ThatÂ’s another statistic. This is why we have the debate."
OÂ’Donnell attempted to interrupt, but Hasselbeck quickly cut her off and delivered a second argument for the right to bear arms:
OÂ’Donnell: "I know, but maybe-"
Hasselbeck: "These things confuse us as, as Americans, but, in, in the results of children dying kind of bring it to a front, they bring it right to a boil. And that's why we have this discussion. That should not happen. But you have to remember that people protect themselves. In the times of segregation, when there were bigoted officers out there trying to just rule over and have government tyranny, people had to defend themselves somehow and they did it with guns."
The liberal members of "The View" responded to HasselbeckÂ’s firm arguments by resorting to typical liberal cliches:
OÂ’Donnell: "You can find an automobile that has a VIN number, if an automobile is stolen and you can trace it back to where the person bought the car and who bought it."
Behar: "DonÂ’t tell them how to get it."
Hasselbeck: "You can. You can. I found out that I had a lemon that way."
OÂ’Donnell: "You can buy a gun in America and it is not licensed. We can't trace who bought it, who owned it or who is responsible. ThatÂ’s wrong."
This is a tired argument by the gun control crowd. If you have to get a licence to drive, why not to own a gun? The simple answer is that driving a car is a privilege, not a right. Whether OÂ’Donnell likes it or not, the right to own a gun is in the Second Amendment of the Constitution.
A few minutes later, the discussion turned to what would have happened if the shooter didnÂ’t have a gun. Once again, it was left to Hasselbeck to make the obvious point:
OÂ’Donnell: "If the man had a knife and he walked in there and there were adult women there and the man said I would like the women to leave because I'm going to keep the girls, I guarantee you, if that man did not have a gun, the mothers who were the teachers in that school would never have left those children alone in that room. Never."
Hasselbeck: "What if they had a gun? What if- Hang on, let's just flip it. IÂ’m saying, letÂ’s discuss all sides. What if, What if those women had guns on them and were able to defend themselves?"
OÂ’Donnell: So youÂ’re saying, you think we should arm teachers?"
Hasselbeck: "I'm not saying teachers should be armed. I'm just giving you the flip side of this situation-"
OÂ’Donnell: "But the flip side is youÂ’re saying-"
Hasselbeck: "-that is a lot of times guns are used to protect people, so we canÂ’t be so extreme."
Co-host Joy Behar, a short time later, brought up the second liberal cliche about guns:
Behar: "I think people want to hunt, that's a right as youÂ’re describing with their rifles. Why do they need an AK--47? Are these deer in the Israeli army?"
[Applause]
Behar: "What is the purpose of a machine gun to hunt with? Now that should be outlawed. Do you agree?"
Walters: Most people do not hunt with-"
Hasselbeck: "I would agree with that. And if you're a good hunter, you don't need that type of weapon."
Walters: "They don't hunt with machine guns."
Yes, surprisingly, Barbara Walters provided the voice of reason. Hunters donÂ’t use machine guns to kill deer. But why would anyone expect Joy Behar to know that? All she knows about hunters are the grotesque stereotypes that people like Rosie OÂ’Donnell propagate. OÂ’Donnell demonstrated clear ignorance about firearms with her next point:
OÂ’Donnell: "But Barbara Walters. In America, itÂ’s shocking that one is able to purchase an AK-47."
Walters: IÂ’m agreeing with you."
Behar: "Why do they have them?"
OÂ’Donnell: "Right. Because it is a $6 billion industry. And they have way to much power in a democracy, if you ask me."
In fact, it is very difficult to purchase an AK-47. But, again, why expect Rosie OÂ’Donnell to be knowledgeable about a subject? ItÂ’s so much more fun to be emotional.
HasselbeckÂ’s reply, and Rosie's closing comment, hinted that viewers have not seen the last of such fierce debates on the ABC program:
Hasselbeck: "Well, the problem is statistics too. Because if you have restrictions, um, on guns, are not showing the results weÂ’d like. You know what I mean?"
OÂ’Donnell: "Well, youÂ’re wrong, Elisabeth. And IÂ’ll give you all the information at the commercial. WeÂ’re going to take a break and come back after this with more hot topics to annoy, IÂ’m sure, a lot of people at home."
Rosie is one of the most despicable women of all time. Either as an enormous ignoramus or a unscrupulous tyrant, Rosie posses no regard for our Second Amendment, and her resolve to disarm moral private citizens, is a great threat to our rights, liberties and safety. Rosie has constantly spouted lies and untruths to further her agenda and they cannot be believed. To do so would prove ignorance. To agree with this evil, disturbed women is proof of one's lack of good judgment, reason, honor, equality and intelligence.
Furthermore, to prove her interpretation of our Second Amendment is grossly inaccurate and erroneous, I've pointed out quotes of our great forefathers regarding the TRUE meaning of our Second Amendment. Enjoy.
"The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against
tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950)
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426.
"...to disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380.
"Whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to
raise an army upon their ruins." -Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789.
"...the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." -Trench Coxe in "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution." Under the pseudonym "A Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1.
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms..." -Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Member of the First U.S. Senate.
"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." -Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Peirce & Hale,
eds., Boston, 1850.
"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all
that is good." -George Washington
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to
the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walk." -Encyclopedia of Thomas Jefferson, 318 (Foley, Ed., reissued 1967)
"That the Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of
conscience; or to prevent "the people" of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms..." -Samuel Adams in arguing for a Bill of Rights, from the book "Massachusetts," published by Pierce & Hale, Boston, 1850, pg.
86-87.
"The militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves.. . . [T]he Constitution ought to secure a genuine and guard
against a select militia, by providing that the militia shall always be kept well organized, armed, and disciplined, and include . . . all
men capable of bearing arms..." -Richard Henry Lee, "Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic," (1788) p. 169.
"That a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural and safe defense of a free
state; that standing armies in time of peace should be avoided as dangerous to liberty; and that in all cases the military should be
under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power." -George Mason, Article 13 of the Virginia Declaration of Rights of 1776.
"The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could by rule of construction be conceived to give the Congress the
power to disarm the people." -William Rawle, 1825; He was offered the position of the first U.S. Attorney General, by President Washington.
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well-armed, and well-regulated militia being the best
security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in
person." -James Madison, 4th President of the United States, I Annuals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789). [This was Madison's original proposal for what became the Second Amendment.]
A free people ought...to be armed..." -George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790.
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense?
Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management
of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or
equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" -Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d Ed. Philadelphia, 1836.
"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, June 1776.
"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may
exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person,
freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of press." -Thomas Jefferson
"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense..." -John Adams, A defense of the Constitutions of the Government of the USA, 471 (1788).
- 5,082
- Panama City, FL
As to the suggestion that perhaps our teachers should be armed:
What a load of crap that is!!!! Anybody ask the teachers if they want to add armed combat to their job descriptions? Anybody see any way to keep those guns out of the hands of some determined student on a rampage?
Schools are an easy target because someone who wants to hurt a bunch of kids knows exactly where to find them. Security for the school is the issue here, not gun control.
Last year our county implimented a new program. Secondary schools are rather tightly controlled. The campus is fenced, and there is no access to the student areas except via the administrative buildings. Visitors with jobs to do (i.e. computer vendor like myself) have a photo badge from the school system, which is applied for at the county office, and issued following a background check, paid for by the applicant (or in my case, the applicant's employer.) After presenting the badge and another ID and signing the register, you will be escorted to the area you are working in. Parents picking up their children are required to wait in the office, they are not allowed onto the campus. Uniformed deputies or police are present in the admin buildings.
Such a system would have no effect on some flake sniping from across the street, but it does keep unknowns from marauding the campus.
What a load of crap that is!!!! Anybody ask the teachers if they want to add armed combat to their job descriptions? Anybody see any way to keep those guns out of the hands of some determined student on a rampage?
Schools are an easy target because someone who wants to hurt a bunch of kids knows exactly where to find them. Security for the school is the issue here, not gun control.
Last year our county implimented a new program. Secondary schools are rather tightly controlled. The campus is fenced, and there is no access to the student areas except via the administrative buildings. Visitors with jobs to do (i.e. computer vendor like myself) have a photo badge from the school system, which is applied for at the county office, and issued following a background check, paid for by the applicant (or in my case, the applicant's employer.) After presenting the badge and another ID and signing the register, you will be escorted to the area you are working in. Parents picking up their children are required to wait in the office, they are not allowed onto the campus. Uniformed deputies or police are present in the admin buildings.
Such a system would have no effect on some flake sniping from across the street, but it does keep unknowns from marauding the campus.
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
I totally disagree with wfooshee on this (only I'm not going to call something I disagree with a "load of crap").
If teachers having guns doesn't prevent psychos from doing this sort of thing then atleast it will give the teachers a chance to end the trouble as it begins.
This shouldn't be a political debate about the Second Amendment.
This should be a discussion about securing schools (just like wfooshee said).
Only difference between my view and his seems to be that I recognize the fact that most of the time "security" includes a gun on someones hip and not just fences and locks.
Get guns in the hands of the right people and put schools on lockdown. đź‘Ť
Teachers with guns... Hell, I wish the police were as smart as teachers!
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
My initial though when I read this was teh teacher at Columbine who made himself a shield in the hallway so the kids could get out and died. I wondered if instead of just dying he could have ended it there had he had access toa gun.
Then by this point I realized maybe a teacher with a gun on his/her hip isn't the best idea, but have it where they can access it or some security person can access it. Or if schools could afford it a security guard. But I imagine a handful of the teachers trained on a specific weapon, which is then securely kept somewhere that only they can get to would be the best way to go.
Of course, one has to wonder if a teacher should ever be attempting to shoot these kinds of people, especially if they are ina crowded room. A teacher is not a trained officer or hostage negotiator. A gunman with a student held hostage could possibly convince a teacher to turn over thier weapon, making himself better armed and making the teacher, who would have possibly escaped otherwise, now a hostage or casualty.
What about the idea of patrolling police forces where at least one officer is in the school at all times, even if each officer only does 30 minutes at a time? It just becomes part of their patrol.
I could probably come up with a hundred different ideas, some good, some bad, if I let myself keep on.
- 5,082
- Panama City, FL
I repeat my question, has anybody asked the teachers if they want to add armed combat to their job descriptions? I can think of no way to empty a school faster than tell teachers they have to go through the training to be armed like a cop, then issued a Berreta. They would all (most, anyway) go home and stay there. Do they wear the gun, like a cop, or just keep it close somewhere. If it's just close somewhere, how is it secured? If it's secured, how long does it take to bring it to use when needed? Maybe TOO long? And what happens when some big guy overpowers Mrs. Johnson and takes her gun? Who gets the blame for that?
One other point I just thought of: what part of the school budget gets canned to buy all these weapons? My daughter has to lose access to some opportunity so her teacher can pack heat? No, I don't think so.
I'm not trying to make this a second amendment question; it definitely is not.
As for the idea of arming teachers being a "load of crap," I'm willing to amend that, but I can't without flagrant violations of the AUP. It's the stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic concept ever sent up the flagpole.
One other point I just thought of: what part of the school budget gets canned to buy all these weapons? My daughter has to lose access to some opportunity so her teacher can pack heat? No, I don't think so.
I'm not trying to make this a second amendment question; it definitely is not.
As for the idea of arming teachers being a "load of crap," I'm willing to amend that, but I can't without flagrant violations of the AUP. It's the stupidest, dumbest, most idiotic concept ever sent up the flagpole.
- 24,553
- Frankfort, KY
- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
What if we do undercover student cops, like 21 Jump Street? 
- 8,191
- Southern Louisiana
- GTP_Kent
wfooshee, you act like it would be a requirement that all teachers carry guns.
Did the thoughts of "voluntary" and "personally owned weapons" ever come to mind when you were thinking through "Mrs. Johnson" being overpowered?
Instead of forcing Mrs Johnson to be armed maybe we could just give her the option (as well as the football coach and every other adult authority figure in the school).
Like foolkiller said, that teacher's heroics at Columbine were amazing but with a gun things might not have been half as bad.
I'm thinking something closer to foolkiller's ideas would be better (btw, rep earn foolkiller đź‘Ť ).
Any way, I'm out for now but will be around later.
Till then,
-
Edit:
just wanted to respond to a6m5's surgical removal of arms thought... If you want to stop repeat offenses of molestation it's not a man's arms that should be removed.
(although I'm down with seeing both for scum like the people we are talking about)
- 1,795
Just yesterday, my school removed every outside doorhandle to every building.
Nevermind the fact that the doors are 90% glass. The only metal is the frame, and one bar in the center to hold a push-bar handle on the inside, which they even tried to remove , until a teacher happened to point out that that would was a fire hazard. And btween the two two-pane glass doors, or several picture windows. It doesn't matter if you weld our damn doors shut, someone with a gun could shoot the windows out, and climb through easily.
Hooray false sense of security!
Nevermind the fact that the doors are 90% glass. The only metal is the frame, and one bar in the center to hold a push-bar handle on the inside, which they even tried to remove , until a teacher happened to point out that that would was a fire hazard. And btween the two two-pane glass doors, or several picture windows. It doesn't matter if you weld our damn doors shut, someone with a gun could shoot the windows out, and climb through easily.
Hooray false sense of security!
- 7,956
- BradleyH131
It still perplexes me how people think the answer to gun violence is 'lets arm more people with guns'.
If you take away all the guns then the amount of people killed by guns is almost nothing. Sure someone could still come at you with knife, but chances of defending yourself against someone coming at you with a knife is pretty slim anyway. Unless you're the type of person who carries around a loaded holstered firearm at all times.
Going along with the arming teachers with guns. I assume again they wouldn't carry around a loaded firearm, because I could come in with a concealed weapon, put it to a teachers head and say 'Give me your firearm' or just shoot the teacher and take a firearm. Now I have two firearms....
So they'd be kept in a Locked Gun Draw Thingy. Which is great, because now I'd just take a hostage and say 'Take me to your gun draw thingy'. I bet Mrs. Johnson wasn't trained in hostage negotiation, and wouldn't want to see little Katie with a bullet in her head, so she'd probably open the Locked Gun Draw Thingy, and tada, I get more guns.
If you take away all the guns then the amount of people killed by guns is almost nothing. Sure someone could still come at you with knife, but chances of defending yourself against someone coming at you with a knife is pretty slim anyway. Unless you're the type of person who carries around a loaded holstered firearm at all times.
Going along with the arming teachers with guns. I assume again they wouldn't carry around a loaded firearm, because I could come in with a concealed weapon, put it to a teachers head and say 'Give me your firearm' or just shoot the teacher and take a firearm. Now I have two firearms....
So they'd be kept in a Locked Gun Draw Thingy. Which is great, because now I'd just take a hostage and say 'Take me to your gun draw thingy'. I bet Mrs. Johnson wasn't trained in hostage negotiation, and wouldn't want to see little Katie with a bullet in her head, so she'd probably open the Locked Gun Draw Thingy, and tada, I get more guns.
- 19,311
- Inland Empire SoCal
- SOLID_LIFTERS
I don't think it's the answer, I KNOW it's the answer.
Not so fast, bub. How many "Enterprising Gentlemen" do you think will spring up in every major city arming those willing to break the law to get a firearm? I bet dozens per city. We have them now!
I am, and I like the idea of everyone else being armed. Bring a knife to a gun fight? Bye-bye.
I'm sure only teachers with proper training would be allowed to carry one, so this scenario doesn't work.
See above answer.
- 7,956
- BradleyH131
I would not go to a place where everyone carries around live weaponry. But some how you think that's safer then no body carrying around guns.
I'll use my country as an example, I've never even seen a gun, and I know some interesting people. I think the last time we had a school shooting was about 15 years ago, then we banned private gun ownership, and amazingly we haven't had one since that I recall.
- 19,311
- Inland Empire SoCal
- SOLID_LIFTERS
What happened to your crime rates?
Back in June/July during the UN talks on limiting small arms and ammunition, the US brought up Brazil and Australia to point out how they're recently passed strict gun laws which caused crime rates to sky-rocket in some areas.
The UN was hoping to get some resolutions passed, but after the US spoke and pointed out some facts, the talks completely fell apart and not single item got passed. It was a complete and total washout. Most countries refused to pass anything after what the US presented.
So much for banning guns, huh?
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
I actually used this very thought in the first draft of my mass debate statement, but I didn't have enough words to make it work effectively.
- 3,425
The thought of some of my old teachers actually OWNING a weapon ...never mind having it with them in school scares me more than being in a room full of Jihadist during a speech by the Pope .
We do have to improve security...but lets get realistic..and not get so reactive.
Let the teachers do their job and teach ..if you need armed security then add it to the school grounds just like in Israel .
Because OK I go crazy...I know I going to school and I am going to waste the living crap out of all those nerds that can actually count with numbers ....so the first person I am shooting is the teacher ...not even "Hello "Mr fiddlbottom ..just open the door.......... Bang YOUR DEAD Fiddles...BTW your names sucks ...allright nerds your turn...
What next motion sensors with mini guns ?
Alright I only get to kill one classroom full of nerds...BUT all of a sudden the other teachers are going to become SWAT ?
Who is coming in the room to get me ?
Lesse ...as long as I don't run out of nerds to shoot I have HOSTAGES...and they will send a negotiator to try to get me to let all the nerds still alive go...the other people with guns in the building once I GET into the room...are kinda limited ..and based on the type of training they actually have maybe ineffective or an actual danger.
Personally if I am the Guard or security..I walk into the room and shoot me in the head while I am busy with nerd practice ...
But lets be realistic...most people run AWAY from shooting and crazy midgets with firearms ...few of us go running to wards the sound of gunfire...and those that do better be trained for what happens when you get there .
We do have to improve security...but lets get realistic..and not get so reactive.
Let the teachers do their job and teach ..if you need armed security then add it to the school grounds just like in Israel .
Because OK I go crazy...I know I going to school and I am going to waste the living crap out of all those nerds that can actually count with numbers ....so the first person I am shooting is the teacher ...not even "Hello "Mr fiddlbottom ..just open the door.......... Bang YOUR DEAD Fiddles...BTW your names sucks ...allright nerds your turn...
What next motion sensors with mini guns ?
Alright I only get to kill one classroom full of nerds...BUT all of a sudden the other teachers are going to become SWAT ?
Who is coming in the room to get me ?
Lesse ...as long as I don't run out of nerds to shoot I have HOSTAGES...and they will send a negotiator to try to get me to let all the nerds still alive go...the other people with guns in the building once I GET into the room...are kinda limited ..and based on the type of training they actually have maybe ineffective or an actual danger.
Personally if I am the Guard or security..I walk into the room and shoot me in the head while I am busy with nerd practice ...
But lets be realistic...most people run AWAY from shooting and crazy midgets with firearms ...few of us go running to wards the sound of gunfire...and those that do better be trained for what happens when you get there .
- 2,614
- Metroider17
http://www.wlwt.com/news/10034190/detail.html Lets make that four, but no injuries or deaths...
