those driving aids..

[Sprite]

Nobody is saying that it isn't a game and I like to make clear that for me too the most important thing is to have fun. But GT4 is also meant to simulate car handling etc. as best as possible. This thread is only meant to discuss the DA and how it's compared to RL DA. Why are the DAs there and when do you reach maximum software simulation (regardless of hardware, e.g. a DFP or a complete car cabine)?

Good points, but the fact still remains if DA are the same as RL (as automatically set in GT4), or they are set just to help a novice or even as far as being used just for N type tyres hasnt been answered and probably will never be answered unless someone from PD say so, or we do a RL Vs GT test but this is alsmost impossible. The only way we can make sense is by testing and tweaking and coming up with a guess.

and as you say Software simulation for GT4 is far from in full use unless there is a DFP used, because there are some other software options to help controlle the car, maybe I need to do some tests and see what happens.

For example: I am excited to go and tame the Tuscan after live4speed's post, this will give me a lot of gaming time trying to achieve something... If I was certain that I was trying to tame a car that is only simulated well when all DAs are applied I would apply those. (maybe I'm a loony....)

Yopur not a loony, you have your own driving style and if a car with no DA isnt fun to drive then thats up to you to add them to the point at which the car becomes better to drive, knobody can tell you what is good for you, you just have to make up your own mind, It could of course be debated that you are takeing the easy way out, instead of driving without DA, but this has nothing to do with this thread as such, thats just personal taste.

BTW what I first said about the TSP6 was a total crock on my part, this morning I purchased the car and took off the DA and its a great car to drive, and even with N3 tyres its handles like a dream. 👍

In the end the simulation is part of what makes the game fun for me. Otherwise I would go out and buy me a copy of 'The Need for Speed'.

Agreed, I love the simulations part of this game, but not having driven such super cars in RL its a bit hard to make a good comparison and find out how good this game is, all I can do is rely upon reviews from guys who drive such cars like good old JC.

It's a bit like playing a soccer game. There is no input device that will give you the ultimate soccer experience, but it is nice to play a soccer game as you would see it on TV, same with GT4.

Well there is an imput device for GT4 and thats the DFP, and knowing you dont have one, as soon as you get the chance to, you must, its the only way to play GT4 and any racing game for that matter.[/quote]

Well, not really. It takes a bit more than single run lap times to prove a point like this. You'll have to drive more laps, so you have more data. The fact that you made a driving error in the last lap shows this. I am interested in the results though!

I kind of agree, but testing the cars in different settings is the only way we can make a valid guess as to why the DA are like they are.

I don't really get the point your trying to prove. If the DAs are only meant to work for N# tires, then what do they simulate? Do they simulate the cars DAs ONLY with N# tires? In other words: You can't simulate an M3 on S# tires with DAs in GT4?

My point was that not only were the questions rased in this thread valid, but we were not looking at the full picture. I think by trying to prove that the DA are a little pointless while using a particualr setup, I actually raised another question about the settings of a car, and what tyres they run matters in the the use of DA, It did kind of show that the DA played more of a part whn using N3 tyres but had a negative affect when using S2 tyres, what relevence this has to the questions raised I dont know but it sure makes for a good question as to what PD actually had in mind when implimenting the DA.

(I also think that my wording could have been better )

The other thing is that the DAs are 'intelligent'. They only act when a particular situation occurs. TCS for example reacts to the tires loosing grip. When your car has S2 tires, you generally have more grip so TCS doesn't have to work as often as with N3 tires. This might be the cause of the differences in lap times.

I think your idea is spot on, it should work this way, I found that if using grippy tyres it still comes in when under heavy cornering, this then slows you down without benefit to your time, yes it makes it easier to take a corner fast, but if you know what line to take and you hit the corner at the correct speed you will get out allot faster you dont need the DA.

It's questioning the realism and trying to achieve a higher grade of realism. I think the questions raised in this thread are valid and nobody is just complaining...
Ok, To be honest, my question about the Tuscan was a bit complaining, but live4speed cleared that issue up

I never said they were not valid, but I think that sometimes people make more of something than its worth, GT4 is full of things that could be argued till the end of time.

That's another valid question for this thread Of course this particular car doesn't need DAs anyway, but for other cars that don't have DAs IRL this is a good point.

The thing is the Impreza has one of the higest settings for TCS in GT4, but if the car handles so well whay dose it have such high DA? this then brings us back the the same questions about DA and GT4. Are PD just adding them for novice drivers? but they cant be seeing as this car is and ok car without them and in no way hard to drive, or are they there because they represent the car simulation wise at its best, just like RL? thats still out, but as my little test showed, the car needs them to get fast times when using N3 tyres, but not when using the S2 tyres.

It would be nice to hear from some of the more experianced drivers here, those who know more about the game than Kaz dose but unless we get a direct comparison with wheel for wheel using manual gears and all the simulations stuff turned on then we may never get to the bottom of it.

 

[Gedscho]

i always wondered, why there are cars that have a default TCS setting of 5, while others have it at 7...

this thread lead me to the following conclusion...
the asm 10/10,tcs 5 settings are standard driving aids to make the game simpler to beginners.
the additional +2 to tcs maybe is for cars that have a rl tcs.

so if you want em like real, maybe you should drive them 0/0/2.

this is just an idea that just crossed my mind.
somebody with some knowledge of real cars please have a look

 

[DuckRacer]

Well, in most cars, you can turn off all aids. But if you are wanting realism with aids, I'd set each ASM at 1 or 2, with TCS at 3.

 

[WonkyFonk]

I play with a DS2 which basically limits the extent to which you can experience "realism". Frankly turning off TCS for some high powered cars is a pain in the hole with DS2 and at the end of the day I play this game for fun so dont need that kind of frustration. And there is no way im a novice at this game.
So those who have a wheel id say debating this issue is fine, however those with a DS2 dont really have a leg to stand on.

 

[Sprite]

I play with a DS2 which basically limits the extent to which you can experience "realism". Frankly turning off TCS for some high powered cars is a pain in the hole with DS2 and at the end of the day I play this game for fun so dont need that kind of frustration. And there is no way im a novice at this game.
So those who have a wheel id say debating this issue is fine, however those with a DS2 dont really have a leg to stand on.

well to extent you are correct, and I agree, if you want full on realism that GT4 offers you need a DFP. But the DA still have effect what ever input device you use so some discution in to the reason behind the use of TCS dosnt really matter what you use.

 

[Pebb]

I take all the driving aids off in any cars I race in-game, which also includes the TVR's in game.

 

[WonkyFonk]

well to extent you are correct, and I agree, if you want full on realism that GT4 offers you need a DFP. But the DA still have effect what ever input device you use so some discution in to the reason behind the use of TCS dosnt really matter what you use.

Ok fair enough, but a throttle and brake pedal has way more modulation than the buttons on the DS2, even though they are pressure sensitive. My point is more that you have to draw a line somewhere, and since most of the cars in the game would have TCS in RL, I believe its not cheating, or set for novice play to have it turned on. Driving aids such as auto steer and auto brake are for novices but TCS which is a RL device is acceptable...and it makes my life easier with the DS2

Maybe im shooting myself in the foot here, bit im quite lazy so I like just to buy a car and go race it out of the box with no setup changes. Theres a huge challenge from that side where you have to learn how a car drives while racing it, TCS or not.

 

[Dave A]

I agree, it's a lot easier to fiinely control you inputs with the DFP than the DS2.

I take all the driving aids off in any cars I race in-game, which also includes the TVR's in game.

But ofcourse, what other way is there to drive one. TVR Speed 12, road tyres, no driving aids, at the Ring. It's a blast.

 

[Gedscho]

Not meaning to sound rude, but you drift off topic a bit.
the question of the op was, which driving aids settings for a given car produce the most accurate simulation of the real life counterpart.

so im gonna repeat myself... i think the cars with the default setting of 10/10/5
have no tcs in real life. this 10/10/5 setting was put there by polyfunny to make the cars more useable for the average casual players with heavy problems controlling their finger movements.

the car that have a default 10/10/7 setting (maybe) are those, that come equipped with some sort of drive by wire system in rl.
so if you substract that standard 10/10/5 it leaves you with 0 asm oversteer 0 asm understeer and tcs 2. this should then (maybe) simulate the modern cars that come equipped with tcs, without the "ingame" aids that are solely there to keep us mere mortals who cant control a GT4 Car on the virtual road...

this is just a theory, and since i have no knowledge of real cars ( i hate real cars ) i cant confirm it, but hey, i think its worth a think.

 

[WonkyFonk]

Not meaning to sound rude, but you drift off topic a bit.
the question of the op was, which driving aids settings for a given car produce the most accurate simulation of the real life counterpart.

so im gonna repeat myself... i think the cars with the default setting of 10/10/5
have no tcs in real life. this 10/10/5 setting was put there by polyfunny to make the cars more useable for the average casual players with heavy problems controlling their finger movements.

the car that have a default 10/10/7 setting (maybe) are those, that come equipped with some sort of drive by wire system in rl.
so if you substract that standard 10/10/5 it leaves you with 0 asm oversteer 0 asm understeer and tcs 2. this should then (maybe) simulate the modern cars that come equipped with tcs, without the "ingame" aids that are solely there to keep us mere mortals who cant control a GT4 Car on the virtual road...

this is just a theory, and since i have no knowledge of real cars ( i hate real cars ) i cant confirm it, but hey, i think its worth a think.

ok, cool, I see your point. Just wanted to give my 10 cents aswell . I would have thought the oversteer/understeer settings were like an anti-roll bar setting, ok not all cars have an adjustable ani roll bar, but in essence its just another setup feature? to create a good balance.

EDIT: Il try your theory. Maybe itll add an extra challenge; since I grabbed all those gold licences ive felt a bit aimless with the game

 

[Jim Prower]

I'm considering turning all aids off on my next run through my garage...Is there any horespower limit above which that require TCS, or excessive wheelspin will occur? (note, that I do not have, nor do I have the inclination to get, a driving wheel or cockpit. Thus, throttle control is a bit more difficlut.)

 

[WonkyFonk]

I'm considering turning all aids off on my next run through my garage...Is there any horespower limit above which that require TCS, or excessive wheelspin will occur? (note, that I do not have, nor do I have the inclination to get, a driving wheel or cockpit. Thus, throttle control is a bit more difficlut.)

I found with cars like the Saleen, you need TCS of at least 1 or 2 with the DS2 controller. Otherwise it was a real frustrating chore to get the thing up to speed minus wheel spin. Dunno if that would be an indication

 

[darkblu]

so im gonna repeat myself... i think the cars with the default setting of 10/10/5
have no tcs in real life. this 10/10/5 setting was put there by polyfunny to make the cars more useable for the average casual players with heavy problems controlling their finger movements.

the car that have a default 10/10/7 setting (maybe) are those, that come equipped with some sort of drive by wire system in rl.
so if you substract that standard 10/10/5 it leaves you with 0 asm oversteer 0 asm understeer and tcs 2. this should then (maybe) simulate the modern cars that come equipped with tcs, without the "ingame" aids that are solely there to keep us mere mortals who cant control a GT4 Car on the virtual road...

just wanted to assure you your oringinal post did not go unnoticed ; )
you've definitely got a very useful observation there .. which given the sheer volume of GT4 is something not too common; you can see many a wrong idea of the game mechanics/facts expressed in these very forums (i've personally had a few : )

 

[Gedscho]

well, its nice a game is so complex you can think and debate about its mechanics.

on the other hand, there should be at least one rant in each thread about game mechanics, how completely unacceptable it is, to publish such a game with such a complex physics engine (or maybe it aint after all?) without the required clarifications.

edit: something just crossed my mind... im really no car specialist (godamnit burning real petrol is a bad idea) so id need help here:

arent there in reality cars that have esp and tcs ?
isnt esp basically the same as asm?

wouldnt a car of manufacturer A maybe have a esp setting that would work like a ASM(oversteer) 2 and ASM(understeer) 4 setting?
and a car of manufacturer B (or C if you like) would maybe have that values reversed? possibly?
and most probable those settings would try to move the natural behaviour of the given car more to neutral (or understeer since joe normal cant work a brake?) ?

bad thing is... look at a car that absolutely fo' sure has no esp... like i dont know.. something old. standard asm settings: 10/10
look at something that fo' sure has esp... like something new... still 10/10...

EDIT;now i think cars with stock tcs 7 are just FF cars