Time for motorcycle's

[Populuxe]

That's just the simple list.

Let me work through that list, see what I think.

1. It would divert T10's focus away from the many areas they need to work on.

❌ This isn't a zero sum game. They could continue to improve the car side while hiring new people to implement motorcycles.
​

2. Would dilute the content that they bring to a new title (which has already been very little for the last few iterations).

❌ This is only from your POV. For people who want the motorcycles, this will be adding to the content in a significant and rewarding way.
​

3. Dilutes future DLC with vehicles that some people don't want to pay for.

❌ You can say that about every DLC. There has never been a DLC that didn't have vehicles people hated and didn't want to pay for.
​

4. Likely requires significant physics work as it isn't as easy as just copy and pasting motorcycles in.

✔️Very true. But as we've seen with Tourist Trophy and Ride (especially the most recent version), it's not insurmountable.
​

5. Would create plenty of problems with game balance, and the PI system they have for cars still needs a lot of work.

❌ I don't see the problems with game balance. Simply group bikes together against similar bikes, just like they do with cars. And the only problem with the PI system for cars I see right now is the universally unliked homologation system.
​

6. Would create car vs bike problems, like cars running into/over motorcycles and riders ragdolling and getting run over by cars.

❌ Cars and bikes would not be running together in Motorsports. Bikes would race against bikes, and cars against cars. The only places I can think of that have cars and bikes racing together in the real world are off-road events like Baja 1000 and Dakar, and Motorsport doesn't have off-road racing.​

7. Would complicate multiplayer and the jobs of the "race marshals" sorting through all the inevitable wrecking clips reported.

✔️I'll give you that one. But it's just a matter of training.
​

8. Creates a ton of "how do we handle this" situational issues that they will likely get wrong and have to spend more time correcting later.

✔️You had me until "that they will likely get wrong". Certainly there's going to be a learning curve, but they will quickly figure it out.​

The thing is, I don't even want motorcycles in Motorsport. I would really much rather have a separate motorcycle-only game. Failing that, adding bikes to Horizon would certainly be welcome. By me, anyway.

 

[Bogie 19th]

DO NOT PUT MOTORCYCLES in this series. They can create a new team and make Motorcycle Motorsports for those who want bikes. PGR4 was ruined with the addition of bikes. They need to focus on cars and get back to what is important.

People in every racing series are reckless enough

Fixed that for you.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Let me work through that list, see what I think.

1. It would divert T10's focus away from the many areas they need to work on.

❌ This isn't a zero sum game. They could continue to improve the car side while hiring new people to implement motorcycles.
​

2. Would dilute the content that they bring to a new title (which has already been very little for the last few iterations).

❌ This is only from your POV. For people who want the motorcycles, this will be adding to the content in a significant and rewarding way.
​

3. Dilutes future DLC with vehicles that some people don't want to pay for.

❌ You can say that about every DLC. There has never been a DLC that didn't have vehicles people hated and didn't want to pay for.
​

4. Likely requires significant physics work as it isn't as easy as just copy and pasting motorcycles in.

✔️Very true. But as we've seen with Tourist Trophy and Ride (especially the most recent version), it's not insurmountable.
​

5. Would create plenty of problems with game balance, and the PI system they have for cars still needs a lot of work.

❌ I don't see the problems with game balance. Simply group bikes together against similar bikes, just like they do with cars. And the only problem with the PI system for cars I see right now is the universally unliked homologation system.
​

6. Would create car vs bike problems, like cars running into/over motorcycles and riders ragdolling and getting run over by cars.

❌ Cars and bikes would not be running together in Motorsports. Bikes would race against bikes, and cars against cars. The only places I can think of that have cars and bikes racing together in the real world are off-road events like Baja 1000 and Dakar, and Motorsport doesn't have off-road racing.​

7. Would complicate multiplayer and the jobs of the "race marshals" sorting through all the inevitable wrecking clips reported.

✔️I'll give you that one. But it's just a matter of training.
​

8. Creates a ton of "how do we handle this" situational issues that they will likely get wrong and have to spend more time correcting later.

✔️You had me until "that they will likely get wrong". Certainly there's going to be a learning curve, but they will quickly figure it out.​

The thing is, I don't even want motorcycles in Motorsport. I would really much rather have a separate motorcycle-only game. Failing that, adding bikes to Horizon would certainly be welcome. By me, anyway.

And as long as they don't have any achievements in the main game that are motorcycle related.

 

[SestoScudo]

Pgr4 had cars vs bikes and it was bad really bad. All it took was cars to just bike riders send them off their bikes.

Motorcycles will no doubt refresh the Forza series but T10 has to nail it to make it any worth.

 

[WFO Krypto]

I like the Homologation, and wish there were public lobbies just for it. It produces much better racing in my opinion.

 

[Morbid65]

Let me work through that list, see what I think.

1. It would divert T10's focus away from the many areas they need to work on.

❌ This isn't a zero sum game. They could continue to improve the car side while hiring new people to implement motorcycles.
​

I would agree with you if they had shown any significant growth or development in many areas while they were still working on cars exclusively. The fact that they can't even advance their game while focusing just on cars doesn't inspire confidence in them improving the game while adding bikes to their plate.

​

2. Would dilute the content that they bring to a new title (which has already been very little for the last few iterations).

❌ This is only from your POV. For people who want the motorcycles, this will be adding to the content in a significant and rewarding way.
​

The progression from FM6 to FM7 brought only 1 new track and 3 returning tracks and what was really a pretty small collection of cars. If the next title adds motorcycles and they include such a small amount of new content, then when 2 of the 4 "new" tracks are motorcycle-oriented tracks and half of the handful of new vehicles are bikes, then the car side of the community would be disappointed, and the motorcycle side would likely be underwhelmed.

Of course, there are some motorcycle tracks like Sachsenring and Barber that are good for both, but do we really have faith in them to choose those?

​

3. Dilutes future DLC with vehicles that some people don't want to pay for.

❌ You can say that about every DLC. There has never been a DLC that didn't have vehicles people hated and didn't want to pay for.
​

But there is a bigger difference between a 7-car pack having 2 dud cars/trucks, and a 7-vehicle pack having around half motorcycles and half cars. Then the dud car/trucks hit even harder because they are 25-33% of the cars available in the pack. On the other side of things, the motorcycle selection would grow at a slow rate and likely leave the motorcycle fans impatient.

​

4. Likely requires significant physics work as it isn't as easy as just copy and pasting motorcycles in.

✔️Very true. But as we've seen with Tourist Trophy and Ride (especially the most recent version), it's not insurmountable.
​

Of course it's possible for them to make a bike game, and I'm fairly confident they could figure it out, but I was more meaning significant work to get motorcycles compatible with the current Forza car engine.
​

5. Would create plenty of problems with game balance, and the PI system they have for cars still needs a lot of work.

❌ I don't see the problems with game balance. Simply group bikes together against similar bikes, just like they do with cars. And the only problem with the PI system for cars I see right now is the universally unliked homologation system.
​

It would create balance issues from motorcycles to cars. You must not do a lot of online racing or rivals mode much, as there are lots of plainly obvious "OP" cars that the PI system favors... It's kind of unavoidable really, and I'm not saying the system is horrible, but it still needs work... And adding another piece in to be balanced certainly wouldn't make it easier.

​

6. Would create car vs bike problems, like cars running into/over motorcycles and riders ragdolling and getting run over by cars.

❌ Cars and bikes would not be running together in Motorsports. Bikes would race against bikes, and cars against cars. The only places I can think of that have cars and bikes racing together in the real world are off-road events like Baja 1000 and Dakar, and Motorsport doesn't have off-road racing.
​

I'm not the one suggesting that they should be together, but if they aren't going to be available to race together, then what would be the point of all these people requesting them be added to the Motorsport series? If they are fully separated from the cars, just make Forza Cyclesport or whatever and this whole discussion would be unnecessary.

This is more of a question for people suggesting this nonsense than for those opposed to it.​

7. Would complicate multiplayer and the jobs of the "race marshals" sorting through all the inevitable wrecking clips reported.

✔️I'll give you that one. But it's just a matter of training.
​

If the motorcycles were put into a separate title, or were separated from the cars, then it wouldn't be as bad. If they were combined, as most people bringing this up seem to suggest, I was just thinking of all the clips of people in cars running over motorcycles and people raging and reporting them.

​

8. Creates a ton of "how do we handle this" situational issues that they will likely get wrong and have to spend more time correcting later.

✔️You had me until "that they will likely get wrong". Certainly there's going to be a learning curve, but they will quickly figure it out.​

They still have a ton of stuff that they haven't corrected in FM7 (drafting still messed up, glitched aero options, game chat still broken, broken models, options that have gone away and not returned, replays that still break after 20 mins, so on), and they have been working with cars for 15 years now. If they added a whole new type of vehicle I don't see any reason to expect that they wouldn't get just as many things wrong on their first try.


I'm perfectly fine with a new Forza series for motorcycles, but cramming them into the Motorsport series just doesn't seem like a smart move at this point. FM7 has fallen so far behind other racing games and has so much stuff to work on for FM8, that now is not the time to add a whole new type of vehicles and all the associated issues to the title.

 

[FPV MIC]

I would agree with you if they had shown any significant growth or development in many areas while they were still working on cars exclusively. The fact that they can't even advance their game while focusing just on cars doesn't inspire confidence in them improving the game while adding bikes to their plate.

​

The progression from FM6 to FM7 brought only 1 new track and 3 returning tracks and what was really a pretty small collection of cars. If the next title adds motorcycles and they include such a small amount of new content, then when 2 of the 4 "new" tracks are motorcycle-oriented tracks and half of the handful of new vehicles are bikes, then the car side of the community would be disappointed, and the motorcycle side would likely be underwhelmed.

Of course, there are some motorcycle tracks like Sachsenring and Barber that are good for both, but do we really have faith in them to choose those?

​

But there is a bigger difference between a 7-car pack having 2 dud cars/trucks, and a 7-vehicle pack having around half motorcycles and half cars. Then the dud car/trucks hit even harder because they are 25-33% of the cars available in the pack. On the other side of things, the motorcycle selection would grow at a slow rate and likely leave the motorcycle fans impatient.

​

Of course it's possible for them to make a bike game, and I'm fairly confident they could figure it out, but I was more meaning significant work to get motorcycles compatible with the current Forza car engine.
​

It would create balance issues from motorcycles to cars. You must not do a lot of online racing or rivals mode much, as there are lots of plainly obvious "OP" cars that the PI system favors... It's kind of unavoidable really, and I'm not saying the system is horrible, but it still needs work... And adding another piece in to be balanced certainly wouldn't make it easier.

​

I'm not the one suggesting that they should be together, but if they aren't going to be available to race together, then what would be the point of all these people requesting them be added to the Motorsport series? If they are fully separated from the cars, just make Forza Cyclesport or whatever and this whole discussion would be unnecessary.

This is more of a question for people suggesting this nonsense than for those opposed to it.​

If the motorcycles were put into a separate title, or were separated from the cars, then it wouldn't be as bad. If they were combined, as most people bringing this up seem to suggest, I was just thinking of all the clips of people in cars running over motorcycles and people raging and reporting them.

​

They still have a ton of stuff that they haven't corrected in FM7 (drafting still messed up, glitched aero options, game chat still broken, broken models, options that have gone away and not returned, replays that still break after 20 mins, so on), and they have been working with cars for 15 years now. If they added a whole new type of vehicle I don't see any reason to expect that they wouldn't get just as many things wrong on their first try.


I'm perfectly fine with a new Forza series for motorcycles, but cramming them into the Motorsport series just doesn't seem like a smart move at this point. FM7 has fallen so far behind other racing games and has so much stuff to work on for FM8, that now is not the time to add a whole new type of vehicles and all the associated issues to the title.

The OP never actually mentions having both cars and bikes on track at the same time, so for me personally, I made my decision of it being okay on it being just a DLC pack. I've played another game where the two co-exist in parallel with each other very well, and rather than being on track together it's either bikes or cars... not both. All tracks from the original game just become usable for the bikes with their own set of events without the added cost of purchasing a full title at full price. People can chose whether to purchase that kind of DLC if they want... or not, if they don't. It also would kill off many of your concerns.

Like others have mentioned, I think the Horizon series would be much better suited if both were to be racing each other at the same time.

 

[Morbid65]

The OP never actually mentions having both cars and bikes on track at the same time, so for me personally, I made my decision of it being okay on it being just a DLC pack. I've played another game where the two co-exist in parallel with each other very well, and rather than being on track together it's either bikes or cars... not both. All tracks from the original game just become usable for the bikes with their own set of events without the added cost of purchasing a full title at full price. People can chose whether to purchase that kind of DLC if they want... or not, if they don't. It also would kill off many of your concerns.

Like others have mentioned, I think the Horizon series would be much better suited if both were to be racing each other at the same time.

A few posts down from the first OP says "people are just afraid of being beat in races and time trials by motorcycles."

Motorcycles as a standalone DLC pack and all the races separated is an interesting solution to the problem... While it would be a pretty good solution to keep motorcycle stuff there just for the people who are interested, many of the same problems would exist if they wanted to bring motorcycle races up to the same quality levels as the cars.

It would also set a bit of a precedent though, yeah? Like if FM8 comes out, then has a motorcycle expansion, nearly everyone would expect motorcycles to be a permanent part of the series and expect FM9 to have them in the base game. It would give Turn 10 a bit more time to refine them and work on their implementation, but again many of the same problems/questions would still be hanging over it.

I guess it's kind of a question of investment too. Is it better value to buy a half-assed DLC pack for $30 to get motorcycles in Forza Motorsport, or better to buy a full-fledged Forza Cyclesport game for $60?

 

[Populuxe]

You must not do a lot of online racing or rivals mode much, as there are lots of plainly obvious "OP" cars that the PI system favors... It's kind of unavoidable really, and I'm not saying the system is horrible, but it still needs work... And adding another piece in to be balanced certainly wouldn't make it easier.

You're right. I don't. Other than running at least one league race each week in FM7, I stay almost entirely offline. I've heard about the cars that dominate each series, and even cars they've had to ban because they're simply unbeatable or too much of a troublemaker for the rammers. I also take back what I posted about cars and bikes not racing together. I didn't realize there was a game that did that, since I never played the game. It sounds like a terrible idea to me. The thing is, we're both in agreement. Adding motorcycles to Forza Motorsport is a bad idea. We've just taken different routes to reach our conclusions.

I guess it's kind of a question of investment too. Is it better value to buy a half-assed DLC pack for $30 to get motorcycles in Forza Motorsport, or better to buy a full-fledged Forza Cyclesport game for $60?

I'll take option B for $60, Alex.

 

[FPV MIC]

A few posts down from the first OP says "people are just afraid of being beat in races and time trials by motorcycles."

Motorcycles as a standalone DLC pack and all the races separated is an interesting solution to the problem... While it would be a pretty good solution to keep motorcycle stuff there just for the people who are interested, many of the same problems would exist if they wanted to bring motorcycle races up to the same quality levels as the cars.

It would also set a bit of a precedent though, yeah? Like if FM8 comes out, then has a motorcycle expansion, nearly everyone would expect motorcycles to be a permanent part of the series and expect FM9 to have them in the base game. It would give Turn 10 a bit more time to refine them and work on their implementation, but again many of the same problems/questions would still be hanging over it.

I guess it's kind of a question of investment too. Is it better value to buy a half-assed DLC pack for $30 to get motorcycles in Forza Motorsport, or better to buy a full-fledged Forza Cyclesport game for $60?

I must've missed that post in amongst some of the pointless posts going on at the time.

In the game I mentioned earlier they had three options, just the car game, own the car game and buy the bikes as a relatively cheap expansion pack, or by the bike game as a standalone product. If it were done this way then I'm not sure it would be expected to be part of the base game in the future, but it would still take some very clever marketing to keep it as separate DLC. It wouldn't be an issue for the solely car fans but I can also see how the bike crowd might expect it.

A separate Forza Cyclesport would solve some problems but I see no point in someone that already owns the next Forza having to pay in full twice for essentially the same game (with the same tracks). There's also no need for an expansion to be half-assed either really, especially if T10 truly wanted to gauge interest, and if it doesn't work out financially as DLC, then I doubt it would cause to many future issues as it would be proven to be of little interest to the fanbase.

In the end it may just be too problematic for T10 to consider while still working on both Motorsport and Horizon, but as a bike (and car... well any racing really) enthusiast, I'd love to see a cheapish expansion for bikes that gives access to the same level and variety of tracks as in the Motorsport series, because at the moment there's just nothing in that league anywhere.

 

[ImaRobot]

I must've missed that post in amongst some of the pointless posts going on at the time.

It was the second post outside of the original post, almost a good two months before anything even happened lol.

In the game I mentioned earlier they had three options, just the car game, own the car game and buy the bikes as a relatively cheap expansion pack, or by the bike game as a standalone product. If it were done this way then I'm not sure it would be expected to be part of the base game in the future, but it would still take some very clever marketing to keep it as separate DLC. It wouldn't be an issue for the solely car fans but I can also see how the bike crowd might expect it.

That all sounds a bit weird, to be honest. Like you mention, in the end, I feel like one of that stick might leave the playerbase feeling a bit shafted, especially because I'd bet there'd be an obvious bias towards cars leaving one end of the spectrum feeling lack luster in comparison.

The Crew 2 dabbles with mixing the two, but that game is wildly terrible in most any driving aspect, and I'm thinking that's likely why it "works" within that game. As a personal preference, I just didn't like the mix. I didn't like that game much either, though, to be honest.

 

[FPV MIC]

It was the second post outside of the original post, almost a good two months before anything even happened lol.


That all sounds a bit weird, to be honest. Like you mention, in the end, I feel like one of that stick might leave the playerbase feeling a bit shafted, especially because I'd bet there'd be an obvious bias towards cars leaving one end of the spectrum feeling lack luster in comparison.

The Crew 2 dabbles with mixing the two, but that game is wildly terrible in most any driving aspect, and I'm thinking that's likely why it "works" within that game. As a personal preference, I just didn't like the mix. I didn't like that game much either, though, to be honest.

It was post 10, but that's neither here nor there .

I'm not sure why one player base would feel shafted. The original player base would still be getting what they want, just with an added option. The ones that would buy the bike DLC expansion pack would more than likely still be part of that original player base, just with the odd extra outsider like myself who'd want to give it go, and would have no real right to complain about something that's an expansion rather than the main game (but I know some still would). Are you familiar with the way Driveclub handled it? ... and yeah I know it's not the most realistic either, but it was still fun, realistic enough and worked well with both.

I didn't like The Crew much either, but for me that was nothing to do with the inclusion of bikes. Much like yourself it was the poor driving model that lost me (a bad experience with Ubisoft about DLC didn't help either). I've played other games with both as well (Motorstorm Pacific Rift) in the past that handled it differently again. The tracks had several routes, some of the paths you could take on a bike (narrow gaps) couldn't be taken by car and vice versa (deep mud) so there was opportunities for some degree of separation. This couldn't be done in Motorsport but would work in the open world of Horizon.

As an aside, I'm currently playing a game where I can race a couch against a combine harvester or a ride-on mower against a bus. It's hilarious and has no real issues handling the different types of vehicles. These are games after all and don't have to follow every real world rule to the letter. Like I mentioned before, bikes (plus the car game) with Forza's track list would be a winner for me... even if it was just for cutting laps in time trials.

 

[WFO Krypto]

As an aside, I'm currently playing a game where I can race a couch against a combine harvester or a ride-on mower against a bus. It's hilarious and has no real issues handling the different types of vehicles. These are games after all and don't have to follow every real world rule to the letter. Like I mentioned before, bikes (plus the car game) with Forza's track list would be a winner for me... even if it was just for cutting laps in time trials.

I've been trying to talk myself into buying Wreckfest. I just can't get past the horror stories of the load times in the online lobbies. My race team was going to move to Wreckfest, but since about the 3rd week it was out for Xbox, the few members that got it, actually stopped playing because of the load times.

 

[FPV MIC]

I've been trying to talk myself into buying Wreckfest. I just can't get past the horror stories of the load times in the online lobbies. My race team was going to move to Wreckfest, but since about the 3rd week it was out for Xbox, the few members that got it, actually stopped playing because of the load times.

Those horror stories are true, in fact the whole game suffers a bit from that, and the lack of customisation for lobbies/hoppers is also a big let down. Hopefully these things will be addressed, and I think Bugbear has said they are going to, as it's a great game to just dick around with otherwise.

Edit: Just to keep this slightly related to the thread title, I strongly doubt any of the above mentioned issues are related to having different types of vehicle on track at the same time.

 

[WFO Krypto]

That's really a shame, because my guys tell me it's actually a pretty fun game once it get's going.

Last night in the B Class Hoppers online, I thought maybe Forza had turned into Wreckfest?

 

[ctdc67]

Bikes and cars don't race IRL for a reason. Insurance issues. But on the the roads they race to work every day. It sounds to me like people are trying very hard to give reasons for not having bikes. YES IRL if you hit a bike with a car the race will be over for the biker. That can be adjusted many ways in a game. I'm not fond of vans in the game and never used them,I hope somebody enjoys them anyways.

PS. Not a lot of love for motorcycles in car games. I wonder if any of you played RIDE?

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

While I have enjoyed a few games that feature bikes I do not want them in a car racing game. Like many I use a good wheel and cockpit setup when driving Forza and GT. I couldn't even imagine how stupid and unrealistic it would feel to use that rig for a bike.

Would be much better to create a game focused on bike racing rather than add them to an existing format that focuses on cars.

 

[ctdc67]

For the people that don't want motorcycles in a simulation racing game because there isn't proper controls. If there were more good games with motorcycles, it would promote companies to produce motorcycle rigs.

 

[Northstar]

For the people that don't want motorcycles in a simulation racing game because there isn't proper controls. If there were more good games with motorcycles, it would promote companies to produce motorcycle rigs.

The problem is I don't see motorcycle racing games ever reaching the level of popularity where a motorcycle rig will actually be profitable enough for companies to make motorcycle rigs for home use. Not to mention that a motorcycle rig will be far more expensive than a car rig due to it being an actual part of the controller and not just a glorified stand, making it much more difficult to get into for those with smaller budgets.

 

[ctdc67]

It could just the handle bars....

 

[FPV MIC]

It could just the handle bars....

Thrustmaster (and others) tried that back in the PS 1/PS 2 era. If it was profitable I would have thought they would of continued with similar products for both XBox and PS.

 

[Morbid65]

Having a motorcycle setup with just the handlebars would be about as lame as one of those non-FFB, plastic-y PS1 Madcatz wheels... Sure you can tell what it's trying to accomplish, but you would always feel like you are missing something and playing with a child's toy.

 

[ctdc67]

True... shows how much time I've been spending in FH multiplayer lately when I can barely remember that.

People being disrupters/crashers shouldn't change the game anyways.