Tire Deformation Spotted Within GT Sport

[Imari]

This trailer of GT6 however (which I believed I have noticed for a long time but did not really cared about it) caught my attention long ago as it also shows some tire deforming/flexing?

I think the final conclusion that people came to with that video was that the "deformation" was simply clipping.

 

[SDSPOWER01]

I will always have a place for GT. It was the first racing video game I really loved. However, a simulation it is not.
That title belongs to the likes of Assetto, RFactor2, i-Racing and to some extent Project Cars.

GT is what it is. Without damage, day/night transition and weather. It is an arcade encyclopedia of cars.
Adding an image of tire deformation does not a sim make. And still no discernable upgrade of engine sounds?

Those looking for a true sim experience will look to other products and find what they seek. Those who love GT for what it was and will be will be perfectly happy with what is presented. And that's a good thing.👍

Gran turismo was and still is a simulation, just like the Forza Motorsports series which since 1 was a simulation based driving. The likes of Asseto Corsa, Project Cars, Rfactor, Raceroom etc etc are all simulation.

It is defined by how good they simulate driving the cars compared to real life. That is defined by how good they actually simulate the physics which the sim experst/racer gave them a grade of "hardcore simulation, simcade or arcade".

The problem is that Gran turismo was more for the casual type of racer with lots of assists(making it more accesable/easier for "noobs") that can be turned on or off and the likes of Asseto and the others are there to represent as accurate as posible how a car drives/race or feel. So again Gran Turismo is a simulation based driving game. Oherwise "the real driving simulator" is literally something they should have never considered adding on the name.

I think the final conclusion that people came to with that video was that the "deformation" was simply clipping.

Do explain what you mean with clipping.

Hmmm... tyre deformation... check. Tyre pressure... we'll see. Engine for said physics?..

IDK but it would be nice. Others do such things and more. But I don't see any 'simulators' loosing their tyres completly, which I would be more interested in.

Catastrophic failure of abused engines, transmissions and tyres are aspects that I have been looking for PD to commit to since Y2K. Really missing this in the so called 'Race for Real' lobbies... which SRF shouldn't even be an option.

Beam NG is the closest "simulator" one for losing its tires

 

[Imari]

Do explain what you mean with clipping.

Clipping is when two polygonal objects visually pass through each other, usually because their collision meshes aren't exactly the same as their visual meshes.

For example:

In the GT6 video, if it were tyre deformation you would expect the sidewall of the tyre to change shape as the tread of the tyre impacts the pavement. It doesn't, the tread simply looks like it passes "into" the pavement and then returns. Hence it's almost certainly clipping.

Additional information is that the final game definitely didn't have tyre deformation in it, lending credence to the idea that it was a visual glitch rather than an intended feature.

P.S. That's a triple post, my friend. That's considered bad form, better to quote and reply to all in a single post. You can put multiple quotes in a post by clicking the +Quote button before replying.

 

[ALB123]

I don't understand the eye-rolling and mocking of GTSport's possible inclusion of tire deformation. Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't just wake up one day and all of a sudden have every single sim racing feature you wish for. If this indicates an actual improvement to the underlying code of tires in Gran Turismo, that is a HUGE deal. Tires are quite possibly the most important item required to convey that true simulation feel and allow the other elements in the games physics engine to shine.

I'm not a Gran Turismo apologist. I don't own a PS4 or XBox One. I play with PC sims. PD adding these types of small touches is a good thing. I wish everyone could see that. It doesn't suddenly excuse every other fault or missing important element, but again...it's a step in the right direction.

 

[LeMansAid]

I think it's great that PD are adding tire deformation, it's an added layer of realism. However, what is the point of adding this when the basic physics model is so lacking. Form over function?

Oh, you missed a perfect dad joke opportunity by not going with deform over function.

 

[bdj57]

I don't understand the eye-rolling and mocking of GTSport's possible inclusion of tire deformation. Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't just wake up one day and all of a sudden have every single sim racing feature you wish for. If this indicates an actual improvement to the underlying code of tires in Gran Turismo, that is a HUGE deal. Tires are quite possibly the most important item required to convey that true simulation feel and allow the other elements in the games physics engine to shine.

I'm not a Gran Turismo apologist. I don't own a PS4 or XBox One. I play with PC sims. PD adding these types of small touches is a good thing. I wish everyone could see that. It doesn't suddenly excuse every other fault or missing important element, but again...it's a step in the right direction.

I do appreciate what PD is doing currently to improve GTS. They are definitely change a little since PS3 era, and that's better than nothing. Look at how they announced to release the closed beta, throwing some new content, Porsche addition, powerful Photomode than ever before (I'm talking about Scapes), refinement on sounds, interface, physics, etc are definitely a broader attempt than what they did with previous GT.

I'm fine with people giving suggestions or serious criticism as long to make this franchise keep alive and for greater good of future GT, but I agree as a reminder for some people to make the game like you want, it won't happened in just a day and needs considerable time of work. It is also applied to the other games as well, no matter what genre or platform it is.

 

[LivingWithGames]

Tire deformation, in a GT game, it makes me remember LFS for sure. Or otehr games that had such feature.

The sounds are an improvement, the damage is getting slowly there, now if they fix the gearbox changing sounds for the cars - we're in business.

 

[KingK76]

I don't understand the eye-rolling and mocking of GTSport's possible inclusion of tire deformation. Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't just wake up one day and all of a sudden have every single sim racing feature you wish for. If this indicates an actual improvement to the underlying code of tires in Gran Turismo, that is a HUGE deal. Tires are quite possibly the most important item required to convey that true simulation feel and allow the other elements in the games physics engine to shine.

I'm not a Gran Turismo apologist. I don't own a PS4 or XBox One. I play with PC sims. PD adding these types of small touches is a good thing. I wish everyone could see that. It doesn't suddenly excuse every other fault or missing important element, but again...it's a step in the right direction.

Come on man... "rome wasn't built in a day"... Neither was GT!! IT'S 20 YEARS OLD FFS! You make it sound like Polyphony just started making this game! 1997 dude... 20 years! They should be the most advanced, cutting edge Sim out there... and they're not. Forza passed them years ago and pCars passed them on their first title ( referring to sim aspecs here...). It's fans with your type of mindset that has let Polyphony drop the ball. You guys should have been holding Kaz to account after the mess that was GT5. But instead you all simply make excuses for him and he still gets away with constant delays and then STILL under delivers... I love GT but it IS NOT the gem it once was.... Unfortunately.

 

[TomBrady]

Don't care as long as it feels good. Force feedback is more important than physics. A simulator without good FFB is a boring one and it's more difficult than real life. We need FFB to drive these "simulated" cars, other than sound and visuals that's all we have to go on so it really can't be understated how important it is.

GT Sports already made strides in the beta alone with update 1.05. Hope it never ends either, hope they continue to improve physics and FFB. More so than they did with GT6.

It's not going to topple Assetto Corsa, Automobilista, or rfactor 2, but considering the competition (if you can even call it that) on consoles in Forza and pCars, it's very satisfying in the physics and FFB area. AC, AMS and rf2 may make GT Sport seem, limited, but GT Sport does the same to pCars with it's huge flaws simulating anything that doesn't have slick tires, and forza's flaws simulating anything period (not to mention awful force feedback compared to almost any sim, and even compared to Driveclub, which has more feel, and valuable feedback being communicated through the wheel)

 

[ALB123]

Come on man... "rome wasn't built in a day"... Neither was GT!! IT'S 20 YEARS OLD FFS! You make it sound like Polyphony just started making this game! 1997 dude... 20 years! They should be the most advanced, cutting edge Sim out there... and they're not. Forza passed them years ago and pCars passed them on their first title ( referring to sim aspecs here...). It's fans with your type of mindset that has let Polyphony drop the ball. You guys should have been holding Kaz to account after the mess that was GT5. But instead you all simply make excuses for him and he still gets away with constant delays and then STILL under delivers... I love GT but it IS NOT the gem it once was.... Unfortunately.

Do you know how to read? Or do you have someone read these posts to you and then you only focus on what you feel like focusing on?

Go look at the second paragraph and then please tell me how you've come to the conclusion that A) I'm a "fan" of Gran Turismo. Then B), tell me how you've decided that people like me have been giving Kaz some kind of free pass on producing less than satisfactory racing games. I really need to understand how a human being with the intellect to use a computer can come to the conclusions you have based on my post.

I started playing GT6 Jan 2014. I threw it away Oct 2015, switched to a PC racing sim and have no intention of EVER playing a Gran Turismo title again. I don't even possess the equipment to play the game if I wanted to. It took me about 18 months to realize Gran Turismo is too gamey for me. How many years have you been supporting this franchise?

My comment was in response to, I'm presuming, people like you who piss & moan because GTSport isn't the most realistic racing sim on earth. Based on the crap game that I played called GT6, adding things like an actual tire model to GTSport should seem like a blessing to the pitchfork waving crowd, yourself included. You want Gran Turismo to be a proper sim? Well, Polyphony Digital obviously doesn't. As you've said, they've had 20 years to become one. How many copies of Gran Turismo have you owned? Are you playing this beta? Do you plan on buying GTSport?

 

[KingK76]

Do you know how to read? Or do you have someone read these posts to you and then you only focus on what you feel like focusing on?

Go look at the second paragraph and then please tell me how you've come to the conclusion that A) I'm a "fan" of Gran Turismo. Then B), tell me how you've decided that people like me have been giving Kaz some kind of free pass on producing less than satisfactory racing games. I really need to understand how a human being with the intellect to use a computer can come to the conclusions you have based on my post.

I started playing GT6 Jan 2014. I threw it away Oct 2015, switched to a PC racing sim and have no intention of EVER playing a Gran Turismo title again. I don't even possess the equipment to play the game if I wanted to. It took me about 18 months to realize Gran Turismo is too gamey for me. How many years have you been supporting this franchise?

My comment was in response to, I'm presuming, people like you who piss & moan because GTSport isn't the most realistic racing sim on earth. Based on the crap game that I played called GT6, adding things like an actual tire model to GTSport should seem like a blessing to the pitchfork waving crowd, yourself included. You want Gran Turismo to be a proper sim? Well, Polyphony Digital obviously doesn't. As you've said, they've had 20 years to become one. How many copies of Gran Turismo have you owned? Are you playing this beta? Do you plan on buying GTSport?

Whoa, whoa whoa.... Just because you state that "I'm not a Gran Turismo apologist" doesn't mean you dislike the series... and my comment was more to the "Rome wasn't built in a day" line you used. That is still 1000% laughable regardless of how you try to attack me. Listen, here's the truth... I admit that I saw your post as another attempt at a GT fan giving Polyphony too much credit. I apologize if I was off the mark on that. But do you realize how many fanbois hide behind statements like "I'm not a GT apologist"??? Many... They think it gives them credibility to defend the game from the "im not a fan" perspective... Anyway, I find it funny how offended you got though... sorry bout that! But tbh in your reply you make it seem like your post was dripping with vitriol towards GT that could not possibly be mistaken! That's simply not the case man. Oh, and to your last few questions. I own (or have owned) every main entry to the series (including GT5 Prologue). And YES I am buying GT Sport (it's the number one reason I bought a PS4 Pro...still have my PS4 upstairs for the kids). Listen man, I'm 40 years old and have been gaming for probably longer then you have been alive. Also racing is my favorite genre of gaming. I love GT. I just wish more attempts were made to have kept it at the fore in the genre. Also if you "actually" read all of my post then you would have realized that instead of calling me someone who simply "pisses and moans" about it faults. It is simply that if, IF more people gave legit feedback on the games failings then these issues would have likely been fixed (or added) years ago.

 

[Famine]

fanbois

Cut it out.

 

[KingK76]

Cut it out.

I wasn't calling him a fanboi... You can't even use the word though??? Sheesh...

 

[Famine]

I wasn't calling him a fanboi... You can't even use the word though??? Sheesh...

Why does GTPlanet have unusual rules?

GTPlanet’s Acceptable Use Policy applies across all areas of the website and is somewhat unusual on the Internet due to its request for “decent grammar” and the prohibition of “txtspk”.

Such rules are often met with confusion and contempt by some new users. However, GTPlanet is not just another disposable “video game forum” – it is a community and a home for thousands of like-minded people which has thrived for more than a decade. These rules have always been in place, and remind everyone to put a little more thought into what they’re contributing to the community. In turn, this creates a more pleasant and attractive place for everyone.

This isn't Facebook or Youtube, and if you can't communicate your thoughts without denigrating those who think differently you should consider whether you should post at all.

Moving on...

 

[Imari]

It is simply that if, IF more people gave legit feedback on the games failings then these issues would have likely been fixed (or added) years ago.

Welcome to GT Planet. You must be new here if you think that people haven't been giving legit feedback on GT for decades.

 

[PlutoDelic]

Anybody remember the tire smearing from grass on GT4, boy i miss that...

 

[ScottPuss20]

I think this shows deformation much more clearly. From the Trailers, Videos and Screenshots thread

Clearly there's been a huge improvement over GT6. I can't stop watching these GIFs... The extra load being applied emphasises the improvement, more so than the Genesis.

 

[diesel97]

I think this shows deformation much more clearly. From the Trailers, Videos and Screenshots thread

Clearly there's been a huge improvement over GT6. I can't stop watching these GIFs... The extra load being applied emphasises the improvement, more so than the Genesis.

Driving is different than YT

 

[WyldAnimal]

I may Have missed it, I skimmed through all of the posts.
First off, Just because you don't see it Graphically, Doesn't mean it's not part of the Physics.
The SIMULATION is all MATH. Displaying it graphically has no bearing on if it's Simulated or not Simulated.

The BEST physics engine, could be used to Display rectangular Boxes with Square wheels that don't move.
And Driving it would Feel Just like Driving a Real Car.

but Because you Don't see it graphically, many would Say, " Worst Sim ever, the Wheels don't even rotate "

Don't be fooled by what you see and Don't see in the Graphics.
A lot can be going on in the MATH, the Real Physics, that isn't shown Graphically.

And some things can be Graphics Only, that don't affect the Physics.

 

[ALB123]

Whoa, whoa whoa.... Just because you state that "I'm not a Gran Turismo apologist" doesn't mean you dislike the series... and my comment was more to the "Rome wasn't built in a day" line you used. That is still 1000% laughable regardless of how you try to attack me. Listen, here's the truth... I admit that I saw your post as another attempt at a GT fan giving Polyphony too much credit. I apologize if I was off the mark on that. But do you realize how many fanbois hide behind statements like "I'm not a GT apologist"??? Many... They think it gives them credibility to defend the game from the "im not a fan" perspective... Anyway, I find it funny how offended you got though... sorry bout that! But tbh in your reply you make it seem like your post was dripping with vitriol towards GT that could not possibly be mistaken! That's simply not the case man. Oh, and to your last few questions. I own (or have owned) every main entry to the series (including GT5 Prologue). And YES I am buying GT Sport (it's the number one reason I bought a PS4 Pro...still have my PS4 upstairs for the kids). Listen man, I'm 40 years old and have been gaming for probably longer then you have been alive. Also racing is my favorite genre of gaming. I love GT. I just wish more attempts were made to have kept it at the fore in the genre. Also if you "actually" read all of my post then you would have realized that instead of calling me someone who simply "pisses and moans" about it faults. It is simply that if, IF more people gave legit feedback on the games failings then these issues would have likely been fixed (or added) years ago.

This is the last post I will direct specifically toward you. You seem to have a lot of rage inside you toward the GT series and the "apologists" in sheep's clothing, yet you still financially support this series that hasn't improved an iota in several years. Using your own words, this 20+ year old series "...should be the most advanced, cutting edge Sim out there... and they're not. Forza passed them years ago and pCars passed them on their first title ( referring to sim aspecs here...)" I'd like to add Assetto Corsa to that list, if I may. It's only my opinion, but I think the sim driving aspects of AC shame anything available from the Gran Turismo series thus far, meaning 1 thru 6. GTSport should be an improved GT title and I believe adding any little extra real life detail is a blessing for GT fans - of which you are a HUGE fan who purchased a PS4 solely for Gran Turismo. Those are your own words.

In my mind, the best way to get the message through to a company the size of PD who seems to be releasing sub-standard racing sims, when they should be the best (right?), is to close my wallet and refuse to give them anymore of my money. That is a heck of a lot more effective than making a post on GTPlanet. I did that after one iteration of Gran Turismo...you keep buying title after title, but I'm the apologist because I think tire deformation is a step in the right direction? My "Rome wasn't built in a day" comment is based on the fact that PD clearly moves at a glacial pace, so any new "feature" of realism should be welcomed no matter how small because a whole bunch of small improvements add up to one big overall improvement. Re-reading my original post, I even wrote that adding this small feature (tire deformation) does not forgive them for all of their other missing sim features. How could I have been more direct?

Finally, your comment about being 40 and gaming longer than I've been alive...Well, you got that one wrong as well. I am older than you are. I'm 42. Too many assumptions.

 

[VBR]

Tire Deformation Spotted Within GT Sport

Déjà vu: Gran Turismo Physics(Poll)

 

[Imari]

Finally, your comment about being 40 and gaming longer than I've been alive...Well, you got that one wrong as well. I am older than you are. I'm 42. Too many assumptions.

It seems to me that the vast majority of gamers who give enough of a 🤬 to constructively voice their opinions are at least in their twenties. And really, there's a lot of us in our thirties and forties now that grew up with gaming, have plenty of disposable income and like to treat games as a "serious" hobby, in as much as that's a contradiction in terms. There's even a significant population of 50+ people who have latched onto gaming as their thing.

The old standby insult of "well you're 12 and so your opinion doesn't count" is long dead. There may be a proliferation of 12 year olds with mics online (he says having run into a couple of mouthy children online completing the Forzathon tonight), but they're hardly the sort to give detailed commentary of their gaming experience.

IMO you made a valid point and I don't get the attacks on it. We all get that Polyphony is slow, but yeah, it's good to see them moving in the right direction. It's a bit of a shame that they're taking the "fudge the physics to make it easier" route rather than the "real physics aren't that hard to drive, we just need good assists for those who want them" one, but it is what it is.

P.S. PC Master Race forever.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I may Have missed it, I skimmed through all of the posts.
First off, Just because you don't see it Graphically, Doesn't mean it's not part of the Physics.
The SIMULATION is all MATH. Displaying it graphically has no bearing on if it's Simulated or not Simulated.

The BEST physics engine, could be used to Display rectangular Boxes with Square wheels that don't move.
And Driving it would Feel Just like Driving a Real Car.

but Because you Don't see it graphically, many would Say, " Worst Sim ever, the Wheels don't even rotate "

Don't be fooled by what you see and Don't see in the Graphics.
A lot can be going on in the MATH, the Real Physics, that isn't shown Graphically.

And some things can be Graphics Only, that don't affect the Physics.

In other words, we don't know, and may never know, unless PD specifically tell us, how detailed the tire model is even if tire deformation is in the game on a visual level. When PD leaves you in the dark as to how deep the simulation goes, people are left to speculate and it's no surprise that some lean towards the the tire model being arcadish. Simply being without a granular heat scale for the tires and the ability to adjust tire pressures leaves them 2 or 3 steps behind. Forget about the next level which in includes graining, flat spotting, different temperatures across the carcass etc. Kunos and SMS are quite open in discussing their tire models and all that they simulate and, for many of us, we're now spoiled with information from other developers.

 

[Oyashiro-sama]

Tire deformation, temperature and pressure being simulated? Yeah right... they can't even get the grip right when comparing comfort/sport/race hard/medium/soft tires on dry (not too mention when we add rain/intermeds when the track is wet).

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Some promising images.
Hopefully it shows through in the physics model too.

I've always been curious as to how much of the tyre model has been "switched on" in the beta.
I can only imagine things will take a step forward once temperature and degradation are included.
The question, I guess, is how big a step will that be?

 

[Tvensky]

I hope everyone realize that real world is very different to gaming engine world... in games visual representations have nothing to do with physics, actually visual 3D models and tire deformation models have nothing to do with physics.. All game engines have frameworks (most of the time already written or recorded, so they use old stuff to create new...) for Physics, Audio, AI, Networking, Graphics, Optimization, Logistics etc... GT sport could look like Brick driving on the cheese roads with triangle wheels, but if the physics numbers are set correctly and car recognizes itself as a car on road surface, tire flex could be there taken in mind, it even could be there in GT4 or GT6 (not saying it is there, but it could be there taken in mind, even if its not visually represented!). There are many ways to do things, most of the game developers cheat.. Dirt for example, amazing looking game with great details, that's until you drive it for months and realize its still quite empty in physics department, (but still fun)!

Games like GTA5 with its crazy interaction engine and amazing crashes looks like its a whole universe which works like whole, but its just many layers of "programs" and "cycles" working "together" really well, and there could easy be made tire deformation in GTA5, but it doesn't mean that GTA5 has realistic working tire deformation "physics" model, my point is that you should never believe in visuals, because it just might be an empty visual with no purpose like in a Flatout game!

GT is still my favorite racing game, so I hope PD makes it properly as always best for its time!

 

[infamousphil]

Beam NG is the closest "simulator" one for losing its tires

I remember Beam! Thanks SDS

This reinforces my thinking that one sim simply does not have it all. There's just too much to information out there to consider. That is why I try not to disparage comparisons. There's what I like and there's what I want. The developers pick and chose their niche and we take it from there.

 

[Famine]

Yeah right... they can't even get the grip right when comparing comfort/sport/race hard/medium/soft tires on dry

Out of sheer morbid curiousity, what would be the right grip for these entirely fictional tyres?

 

[Fredzy]

The BEST physics engine, could be used to Display rectangular Boxes with Square wheels that don't move.
And Driving it would Feel Just like Driving a Real Car.

but Because you Don't see it graphically, many would Say, " Worst Sim ever, the Wheels don't even rotate "

I can see it - minecraft racing, the new go-to software for factory F1 team training! Really though, good points.

I'm also skeptical that this flex will matter much, mathematical or not. PD's approach to tire compound selection and performance follows their ethos of making things simple and consistent across the whole game. Whether you're in an LMP1 or an old Alfa roadster, you have the same dozen tire types to choose from. The performance and behavior of all these different tires scale sorta linearly across all the types and hardness. This makes a seemingly complex game (many options) more user-friendly, but I feel it's an unrealistic oversimplification. I'm not sure how and added layer of realism (the flex) would play with it.

The only practical way I could see flex being a factor in this game is with wheel size. For the same car/tire combo, bigger wheel = less flex. Less flex = more responsive handling but with worse ride quality and less predictable on the limit.

 

[infamousphil]

Out of sheer morbid curiousity, what would be the right grip for these entirely fictional tyres?

How many of us actually know what a specific car... street, racer or moon rover handles like. I drive school buses, semi tractor-trailers and small family sedans.