Tire Testing - Strange, but interesting results...

[JDMKING13]

Why should they be? I'm confused about the comment.

SM stock? Have you driven in the rain in those with those sport tires? Trust me CS are the way to go. The Alfa 8C Competizione comes stock with Pirelli PZero this would be considered a CS tire. 👍

 

[panjandrum]

Have you ever driven a real car with summer performance tires in the rain as opposed to seasonal tires, you get the same results.

Here is the thing with *all* blanket statements of this type (irony intentional)... There are many different types of performance summer tires. The set of extremely high performance tires I have on my Porsche have incredibly good wet performance, both on the street and in motorsports. That was a trait I looked for specifically when purchasing the tires. Many performance summer tires have excellent hydroplaning resistance.

With the generic "tire types" we have in GT5, the options are obviously limited, and I don't see how PD could manage it any differently. I run sports tires often in the wet in GT5, and until I exceed safe speeds (say 75mph) with sufficient standing water to see hydroplaning problems, I think the sports tires perform pretty much as I would expect and feel pretty close to real-life. The problem comes in the estimation of your speed. In real life 75mph in a downpour with standing water you know it; you can feel it - it feels fast, like you have pushed it as far as it can go. In any racing SIM you just don't get this feeling, so it is very hard to tell when you are pushing past the limit of your tires (no matter which tire you are using).

 

[DaLaLLeR]

You have a column that lists your recommendation for tires that will mimic the car's real life stock tires. Could you add a column next to that that lists the stock tires for that car in the game?

dito 👍
we all could help in getting the right information.

Btw, check https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6047188#post6047188
"[...] Comfort medium tyres. According to Digital Polyphony, these most closely replicate the grip characteristics of the real car's road tyres. [...]"
talking about the Audi R8 V10, you recommend SH.

 

[JDMKING13]

dito 👍
we all could help in getting the right information.

Btw, check https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=6047188#post6047188
"[...] Comfort medium tyres. According to Digital Polyphony, these most closely replicate the grip characteristics of the real car's road tyres. [...]"
talking about the Audi R8 V10, you recommend SH.

Exactly CM and CS are mainly on production cars, ever since the update the comfort tires feel better. This is an example how I run my league with tire selection.

BMW M3 coupe 07 Pilot Sport PS2(max summer tire) Comfort Soft
Chevrolet Camaro SS '10 PZero (max summer tire) Comfort Soft
Honda Integra Type R (DC5) '04 Potenza RE040 (ultra high performance) CM
Acura NSX '91 Potenza RE010 (ultra high performance) CM

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

SM stock? Have you driven in the rain in those with those sport tires? Trust me CS are the way to go. The Alfa 8C Competizione comes stock with Pirelli PZero this would be considered a CS tire. 👍

JDM, you are making a recommendation to use CS. You are confusing things, and missing the point. No offense, but this thread isn't about what type of tires you would recommend.

This thread is about what type of tires most closely resemble the grip characteristics of the tires the car has in real life. Calan's testing shows that Sports Medium tires most closely match the grip characteristics of the car in real life.

If you purchase the car from the NCD in the game, it comes standard with Sports Hard.

 

[JDMKING13]

JDM, you are making a recommendation to use CS. You are confusing things, and missing the point. No offense, but this thread isn't about what type of tires you would recommend.

This thread is about what type of tires most closely resemble the grip characteristics of the tires the car has in real life. Calan's testing shows that Sports Medium tires most closely match the grip characteristics of the car in real life.

If you purchase the car from the NCD in the game, it comes standard with Sports Hard.

Whatever man watch a M3 drive in rain in any footage and you will see It does not handle anywhere near how it does with SH SM SS Sports tires are considered to be Advan A048 Toyo R888 Pilot Sport Cup, PZero Corsa System. If you seriously think SM should be fitted on a production car I can guarantee you are not getting anywhere close to resemble reality sorry to burst your bubble, also note these calculation where done before spec 2.0. You might wanna read this quote..

The november issue of Wheels magazine (Australia) takes an Audi R8 V10 to Laguna Seca, both in GT5 and in reality. I wrote the article. Okay, not a new idea, it's been done in magazines and top gear TV before but not with GT5. And anyway who wouldn't grab the chance to have an Audi R8 and Laguna Seca all to yourself for four hours?

The idea was to see how closely GT5 replicates reality, in all aspects. I also wanted to see if I could mirror my GT5 times, but I placed a few restrictions on my Virtual Laps.

1. Comfort medium tyres. According to Digital Polyphony, these most closely replicate the grip characteristics of the real car's road tyres.
2. No crashing. My Virtual session ends when I hit a wall, just like it would in the real world. That made it really hard to set good lap times straight away - after months playing on racing slicks the CMs grip like ice on oil.
3. When the road car's brake pads wear, my real world session is over.

The end result... Well, here's a quick video photographer Chris Benny shot on the day.



Cheers all, hope you like it. For the benefit of overseas readers, I'll post the full article here after Wheels magazine has been on sale for a week or so. They funded the article, so they should get first shot at publishing it.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Whatever man watch a M3 drive in rain in any footage and you will see It does not handle anywhere near how it does with SH SM SS Sports tires are considered to be Advan A048 Toyo R888 Pilot Sport Cup, PZero Corsa System. If you seriously think SM should be fitted on a production car I can guarantee you are not getting anywhere close to resemble reality sorry to burst your bubble, also note these calculation where done before spec 2.0. You might wanna read this quote..

Again, your opinions, thoughts, speculations, or references don't matter. Run tests, produce numbers. It is possible that a change in physics in Spec 2.0 has changed the results from the tests that Calan did. I only play online, and I didn't notice any change, so I suspect that Calan's numbers won't change that much.

I think other threads, and possibly this one, have made clear that PD doesn't take into consideration tread width. Yes, the 8C may come with less grippy tires in the real world, but they may be wider than what PD models.

I think there is valid suspicion over the weight-transfer model in the game. Yes, the 8C may come with less grippy tires, but the real world suspension may not overload the tires as easily as they are overloaded in the game.

And lastly, not all real world comfort tires are the same. There can be plenty of variation in lateral grip and tread life on tires from the same manufacture in the same tire class, much less different manufactures. In the game, there is only one manufacturer of tires, and it is possible that what PD brand as Clint Eaglethrust Hamjet Supremes is most closely related to Pirelli PZero.

I completely understand that in the real world, a mostly luxury car like the 8C comes with comfort based tires (more honestly, they come with harder tires that have longer tread-life or come with reinforced Run Flat type of tires). The point is not to pick the tire by type that's flavor text most closely matches the real world tire, but to pick the tire by performance that more closely matches the real world tire.

It would be nice if PD took the time to more accurately model tread life, too.

 

[JDMKING13]

Again, your opinions, thoughts, speculations, or references don't matter. Run tests, produce numbers. It is possible that a change in physics in Spec 2.0 has changed the results from the tests that Calan did. I only play online, and I didn't notice any change, so I suspect that Calan's numbers won't change that much.

I think other threads, and possibly this one, have made clear that PD doesn't take into consideration tread width. Yes, the 8C may come with less grippy tires in the real world, but they may be wider than what PD models.

I think there is valid suspicion over the weight-transfer model in the game. Yes, the 8C may come with less grippy tires, but the real world suspension may not overload the tires as easily as they are overloaded in the game.

And lastly, not all real world comfort tires are the same. There can be plenty of variation in lateral grip and tread life on tires from the same manufacture in the same tire class, much less different manufactures. In the game, there is only one manufacturer of tires, and it is possible that what PD brand as Clint Eaglethrust Hamjet Supremes is most closely related to Pirelli PZero.

I completely understand that in the real world, a mostly luxury car like the 8C comes with comfort based tires (more honestly, they come with harder tires that have longer tread-life or come with reinforced Run Flat type of tires). The point is not to pick the tire by type that's flavor text most closely matches the real world tire, but to pick the tire by performance that more closely matches the real world tire.

It would be nice if PD took the time to more accurately model tread life, too.

Listen All you have to do is watch bestmotoring video and watch when they do Tsukuba battles, I have watched over 100 hours of footage. You will see that comfort soft and mediums get you to close times the cast are running. A car coming with Sport Tires would be Viper ACR '08 Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, other than that many production cars come with comfort soft and mediums.

Again all you have to do is watch Best Motoring video Tsukuba battles. They give you the specs of the cars including the Tire brand ,try to mimic these times I guarantee you if you use sports tires your times will be way faster then what you see the cast running.


Also In my league depending on what tire you run depended on the mileage you get EX. My brother has a EVO which comes with Advan A046 he only gets 100 miles on them before he has to get a new set or they get downgraded to CM. 👍

 

[Sohvakettu]

When compared to real life lap times the CS and CM seem to be closest to real life. With SH it doesn't generally take much to blast trough the real life lap times and I'm nowhere near pro driver skill level.

 

[JDMKING13]

When compared to real life lap times the CS and CM seem to be closest to real life. With SH it doesn't generally take much to blast trough the real life lap times and I'm nowhere near pro driver skill level.

👍 Exactly my thought man.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Something else to point out, online times are slower than A-Spec. So if you get comparable times to what you expect on CM, then you'll need to use CS online.

If SH produces similar grip properties to a car in real life that should probably be on comfort based tires, the question then becomes, where else did PD mess up with their "real racing simulator". If you are producing comparable lap times to the car in real life on a tire that has less grip than the one in real life, where else did PD mess up?

 

[Griffith500]

Something else to point out, online times are slower than A-Spec. So if you get comparable times to what you expect on CM, then you'll need to use CS online.

If SH produces similar grip properties to a car in real life that should probably be on comfort based tires, the question then becomes, where else did PD mess up with their "real racing simulator". If you are producing comparable lap times to the car in real life on a tire that has less grip than the one in real life, where else did PD mess up?

How can we infer the grip of commercial tyres to be able to compare with those in-game?

The cornering acceleration of cars is due to a number of factors, not just the tyre compound and construction (although it is probably the greatest influence). Stick the exact same tyres on two different cars and I bet they won't corner the same. At the very least this is due to differences in C.o.G., differences in suspension geometry and set-up, differences in chassis rigidity, drivetrain etc.

There is speculation amongst members here that things like tyre tread width, and other tyre-specific properties like sidewall rigidity etc., are actually part of the individual car physics, such that the tyre choices offered become mere tread pattern and tread compound choices, rather than actual differences in construction.

In that sense, it seems the tyres are matched across all cars (by tweaking the compound's "grip" per car) so that a given grade of tyre will almost always result in a certain cornering acceleration figure for any stock car, possibly to allow tyre restrictions to actually mean something.

 

[tfed]

I've uploaded a spreadsheet with the recommended tires to Google Docs:

GT5 Stock Tire Recommendations

*************

In an effort to figure out what is going on with GT5's tire models and which tires should go on which cars, I decided to do some skidpad testing. I used the 2010 Camaro SS and the Corvette ZR1, since I'm familiar with those cars and actual data is readily available.

We don't have an actual 200' skidpad to calculate lateral g force with in GT5, but what we do have is a g "meter" and a datalog. For the values I came up with, I created a delineated scale and taped it under the HUD g-force bar graph, and also used a scale against the datalog graph during replays as verification. The measurements were taken on the widest part of the TGTT, by turning a continuous steady-speed circle after warming the tires. Lateral g force was recorded up to the point where the car started to skid and could no longer hold the established circle. I also ran laps "on the edge" to verify the numbers, and repeated all the tests twice. (Note that I rounded the numbers to the nearest .05, due to my screen resolution).

My setup is a racing simulator chassis with a G25 wheel, and a Sony 50" HDTV. I ran each test with no aids and a manual tranny in "bumper" cam. (I hate that inaccurate view name ).

First up was the Camaro, with comfort hard (CH) tires. I performed the test on each tire type, trying to be as consistent as possible. I only tested comfort and sport tires; once I got to the racing compounds the grip started getting ridiculous, and was beyond what I wanted to test with this setup.

Here are the numbers (Notice that each softer tire compound increases lateral acceleration by approximately .05g):

CH - .85
CM - .90
CS - .95
SH - 1.00
SM - 1.10
SS - 1.15

The real-life Camaro SS scores a 0.87 on R&T's skidpad test. So it would appear that CM tires would be closest to stock for the Camaro, based on lateral acceleration. (I'm going to the next higher number, just because ).

Now for the 'vette numbers:

CH - .85
CM - .90
CS - .95
SH - 1.05
SM - 1.10
SS - 1.15

Virtually identical as far as the lateral acceleration numbers for each tire type. The real-life ZR1 scores a 1.10 on R&T's skidpad, so it would appear that SM tires would be the best stock equivalents for it.

Note: Just for reference, RH lateral g values were around 1.25, and RS were around 1.35 with the ZR1.

Here's where it starts getting weird. The real-life Camaro comes equipped with Pirelli P Zero tires, and the ZR1 comes with Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 ZP tires. According to TireRack.com data sheets, both of these tires have identical speed rating (186+mph), tread wear (220), and traction rating (AA).

The only thing I can come up with to explain the unexpected test numbers is that the size of the contact patch is not figured into GT5's tire equations. In other words, to duplicate accurate lateral acceleration numbers for the ZR1, you have to use a softer tire compound to make up for the larger contact patch on the real-life car. (The 'vette has considerably more rubber on the road than the Camaro, especially in the rear).

So far it looks like each car would have to be tested independently to come up with the best GT5 tire type to simulate real life. I plan on doing some more as time permits, but it will be a slow process. First up will probably be one of the Ferrari's that come with the Pirelli P Zero's (599 I think?), so that we have a side-by-side comparison.

Thoughts?

*************

For those that are late to the party and want a quick summary:

My testing so far has revealed that the 9 tire types (CH, CM, CS, SH, SM, SS, RH, RM, RS) in GT5 form what appears to be a simple grip multiplier, with each tire type adding approximately .06g of lateral grip. The only thing that changes is where the scale starts for various cars. (i.e. for the ZR1, CH = .85g and for the '71 Cuda, CH = .80g). It also appears that the width of the tire is not being considered in the grip equations; for any specific tire type, the '02 Mini Cooper has the same amount of lateral grip as the '09 Corvette ZR1! And as softer tires are equipped, the amount of grip increases equally for both cars.

The implications of this are that in order to get close to IRL grip performance (based on lateral acceleration anyway), you have to equip different cars with different tires. As an example, just throwing sport mediums on all performance sports cars means nothing. One car may need CM tires to reproduce IRL performance numbers, while a very similar car may require SH tires.

Here are my "recommendations" for the cars I've tested so far (take it for what it's worth and do with it what will you will ).

Edit: See link at top

Man these are the people who are the friggin backbone to gtplanet. Good stuff bro

 

[JDMKING13]

How can we infer the grip of commercial tyres to be able to compare with those in-game?

The cornering acceleration of cars is due to a number of factors, not just the tyre compound and construction (although it is probably the greatest influence). Stick the exact same tyres on two different cars and I bet they won't corner the same. At the very least this is due to differences in C.o.G., differences in suspension geometry and set-up, differences in chassis rigidity, drivetrain etc.

There is speculation amongst members here that things like tyre tread width, and other tyre-specific properties like sidewall rigidity etc., are actually part of the individual car physics, such that the tyre choices offered become mere tread pattern and tread compound choices, rather than actual differences in construction.

In that sense, it seems the tyres are matched across all cars (by tweaking the compound's "grip" per car) so that a given grade of tyre will almost always result in a certain cornering acceleration figure for any stock car, possibly to allow tyre restrictions to actually mean something.

Exactly 👍 Buy a 99 S2000 and the 06 S2000 and put comfort soft on both cars. You will notice the 06 S2000 handles better because it has wider tires and bigger wheels compared to the 99 S2000.

 

[Spagetti69]

Excuse my ignorance here but it that the only difference between the 99 model and the 06, wider tires?

 

[JDMKING13]

Excuse my ignorance here but it that the only difference between the 99 model and the 06, wider tires?

No it's not but like the early NSX-R the rims and tires were to small, If you youtube Bestmotoring they have a detailed description on the S2000 early version vs the latest model same with the old NSX-R and the new NSX-R. I remember them saying that the new S2000 felt way better at cornering because the increase of tire width and rim size I will try to find it for you. 👍 I did the same test and you can really feel the difference between the grip levels between the cars.



You all should also try to mimic this situation(besides the track) they give you description on the car spec.

Edit: Notice how the tuned S2000 are running Semi slick (Sport tire) Advan A048(M) Potenzas RE55S I would recommend to use these tires as SM SS. For sports hard tires I would use a Potenza RE-11 as a SH. 👍

 

[Sohvakettu]

Did some lap time comparisons with online physics. The car was Mercedes SLS AMG and I compared the lap times I could manage on Laguna Seca, Fuji Speedway and Nordschleife using both sports: hard and comfort: soft tires. Wheel was my trusty old DFP and aids, except for ABS 1, were turned off.

Lacuna Seca:

RL time 1:38.80 (There were also laps 1:40.74 and 1:38.82. Don't know how these differ from the 1:38.80)
SH time 1:36.67
CS time 1:39.16​

Fuji Speedway:

RL time 1:54.27
SH time 1:52.53
CS time 1:53.96​

Nordschleife:

RL time 7:44.42
SH time 1:36.54
CS time 1:46.+​

On SH laps I quit when I got a better time than the RL record and this usually didn't take much time. I could surely get even faster times on SH and other could go even faster.

On CS I ended up needing to push really hard at times but I still kept a safety margin. I didn't cut the pink inner kerbs on Laguna Seca for example as those aren't apparently drivable in real life. Also I'm not really comfortable in Laguna Seca and when I finally got to Nordschleife I was quite tired already. That's why the lacking lap time info...

I'm sure more skilled drivers could beat the lap times online even with CS. Even I might be able to do it if I threw more time at it. Also driving the SLS on CS on Nordschleife is great fun so I definitely recommend to try that.

 

[JDMKING13]

Did some lap time comparisons with online physics. The car was Mercedes SLS AMG and I compared the lap times I could manage on Laguna Seca, Fuji Speedway and Nordschleife using both sports: hard and comfort: soft tires. Wheel was my trusty old DFP and aids, except for ABS 1, were turned off.

Lacuna Seca:

RL time 1:38.80 (There were also laps 1:40.74 and 1:38.82. Don't know how these differ from the 1:38.80)
SH time 1:36.67
CS time 1:39.16​

Fuji Speedway:

RL time 1:54.27
SH time 1:52.53
CS time 1:53.96​

Nordschleife:

RL time 7:44.42
SH time 1:36.54
CS time 1:46.+​

On SH laps I quit when I got a better time than the RL record and this usually didn't take much time. I could surely get even faster times on SH and other could go even faster.

On CS I ended up needing to push really hard at times but I still kept a safety margin. I didn't cut the pink inner kerbs on Laguna Seca for example as those aren't apparently drivable in real life. Also I'm not really comfortable in Laguna Seca and when I finally got to Nordschleife I was quite tired already. That's why the lacking lap time info...

I'm sure more skilled drivers could beat the lap times online even with CS. Even I might be able to do it if I threw more time at it. Also driving the SLS on CS on Nordschleife is great fun so I definitely recommend to try that.

Exactly man SLS comes with ContiSportContact 5P (CS) I agree with you 100%

 

[Sohvakettu]

Exactly man SLS comes with ContiSportContact 5P (CS) I agree with you 100%

This was my first time trying the SLS on CS so I was quite surprised how good it felt. I would still probably use SH for online racing because of the extra control margin it gives in close quarters.

I forgot to mention that the test was done with grip reduction as real and tire and fuel use on.

One thing that came to mind was that the stock SLS has camber values set to zero like so many other cars in the game. At least on some cases this seems to be wrong as many cars have some negative camber out of the factory in real life. I think I could easily get the two seconds out of the Nordschleife time by just dialling in 1 degree of camber on both ends. Unfortunately SLS isn't exactly a common hobbyist car so it's real life factory alignment values are quite hard to find...

Edit: Have done some more test on different cars and had some interesting results. It seems that both SH and CS tires can be correct in some cases. The results with SLS were consistent so I think the tracks are relatively accurate but on some cars the results with SH were closer on some tracks while CS seemed more accurate on others. This might be because of varying equipment levels on different tests. I know of at least Corvette having grippier tires as optional equipment and this might cause the varying in both lap times and on other grip tests.

 

[samiazza]

When compared to real life lap times the CS and CM seem to be closest to real life. With SH it doesn't generally take much to blast trough the real life lap times and I'm nowhere near pro driver skill level.

This is how I drive cars in GT5 to get them closest to real life feeling

FR, MR, RR cars:
0 to 119hp ---------->comfort hard
120 to 239hp ------> comfort medium
240hp+ --------------> comfort soft

Notes:
FF cars max comfort medium


That said, I still believe that tiers width in GT5 is not modeled in a correct way, a lot of cars that comes in real life with wider rear tiers are not so in-game, that why most of MR,RR cars and some of FR cars are too much over steering compared to real life ones, example BMW M5 has too much over steering, Ferrari F40 is a good example also, Yellow Bird etc...

look at the McLaren MP4-12c before 2.2 it was too loosy and after that it has been rectified I think they have corrected the front-rear tire widths

 

[phil_75]

So the GT-R 2012 has a claimed real life G of 1.63!

According to this RS are for cars with 1.35+?

 

[shirakawaa]

So the GT-R 2012 has a claimed real life G of 1.63!

I doubt that is sustained G.

 

[XEPEGTP]

How can the Comfort\Sport\Racing grip only be factored by a multiplier?

The comfort tires "behave" differently than Sports, for instance, loss of grip is more gradual and balanced, whereas in Sports tires, the loss is instant and drastic.
If only the amount of grip changed between C and S then how would they behave this way?

And shouldnt there be a Vintage Comfort\Sport\Racing tire model for the pre-80s cars, ive just been throwing CH on pre-70s and CM on pre-80s, except for rally cars\racing cars.

 

[shirakawaa]

All comfort tires also have much more grip on wet surfaces than any sports tire, reflecting the performance of real street tires. One more reason why only very few stock cars should come with Sports Hard tires as default, differently than what currently happens in GT5.

 

[calan_svc]

Can't believe this thread is still alive. I had pretty much forgotten about this.

 

[TheProcrastin8r]

So the GT-R 2012 has a claimed real life G of 1.63!

According to this RS are for cars with 1.35+?

In Auto Express testing the SpecV posted a 0-60 mph time of 3.2 seconds, pulled 1.12 g on the skidpad and 74.7 mph in the slalom. An earlier tested Corvette ZR1 (2011) resulted in an identical slalom speed but a lower 1.06 g on the skidpad

-wikipedia - ^ By Jonathon Ramsey RSS feed. "Video: AutoExpress tests the 2010 Nissan GT-R SpecV". Autoblog.com. Retrieved 2011-11-20.

 

[phil_75]

In Auto Express testing the SpecV posted a 0-60 mph time of 3.2 seconds, pulled 1.12 g on the skidpad and 74.7 mph in the slalom. An earlier tested Corvette ZR1 (2011) resulted in an identical slalom speed but a lower 1.06 g on the skidpad

-wikipedia - ^ By Jonathon Ramsey RSS feed. "Video: AutoExpress tests the 2010 Nissan GT-R SpecV". Autoblog.com. Retrieved 2011-11-20.

Thats the VSpec but 1.12g according to this thread is SS then!?

Listen between 4.18 - 4.40 on this vid! 2.3g (2.8g max)!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM0lQhJ-I9A&feature=player_embedded

Motortrend Review http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1111_2013_nissan_gt_r_track_pack_japanese_spec/

 

[Olegonic]

I think the BEST way to find tires which matches the real life is to run laps on same car with close to real spec, same track and find when real time is close to one you can get in GT5 using different tires. I think game GT5 times might be a lil faster because no fear and so on.

 

[niky]

Won't work. Unless you're a robot and can run exactly the same lap traces as the real life driver did, or you were the real life driver, then there's absolutely no comparison. Even if a sim were 100% accurate, the lack of fear factor and actual physical stress would make the simulated times faster.

The only real fair comparison would be absolute skidpad grip, but that has its own issues.

 

[Olegonic]

David Coulthard event was held on SLS AMG CS tires while car comes from dealership equipped with SH, its a signal to me to run most of supercars on CS tires.
Ordinary road cars I equip with CH-CM
I use CS-SH tires on supercars
SH tires on all TC and RM cars
RH for racing cars only.
I dont know how RS tires feeel like.
EDITED: I ran with NO assists, ABS OFF, brake balance 2-1, 3-2. Tuned G27 (Corsica wheel), race seat.