Today FM presention / Kaz?
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I've never adapted to Forza's gameplay and camera set. I've been kind of conditioned to the GT simcade since the 90s.
Forza 8, at first glance, seems to maintain the essence of that same gameplay. However, I think the game design, with its single player career progression system, will be much more complete and sophisticated than GT7.
Also, as the Turn 10 franchise has shown in the last few games, the roster of cars and tracks will be nearly triple that of GT7. The Motorsport franchise has become the cutting edge in terms of car roster, as it always features the latest supercars and racing cars, as well as offering a vast multiclass roster.
The cast of tracks in Forza 8 must be incredible, with all the layouts precisely made available, that is, without this nonsense of adding a chicane or a different curve to each monthly DLC.
Anyway, I really hope Forza 8 is a great game. PD needs to be pushed, and the console wars, through GT7 vs. FM8, is the best there is for consumers.
Forza 8, at first glance, seems to maintain the essence of that same gameplay. However, I think the game design, with its single player career progression system, will be much more complete and sophisticated than GT7.
Also, as the Turn 10 franchise has shown in the last few games, the roster of cars and tracks will be nearly triple that of GT7. The Motorsport franchise has become the cutting edge in terms of car roster, as it always features the latest supercars and racing cars, as well as offering a vast multiclass roster.
The cast of tracks in Forza 8 must be incredible, with all the layouts precisely made available, that is, without this nonsense of adding a chicane or a different curve to each monthly DLC.
Anyway, I really hope Forza 8 is a great game. PD needs to be pushed, and the console wars, through GT7 vs. FM8, is the best there is for consumers.
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Probably has his head so far up his ass he doesn't even care
I thought the Forza presentation looked great. Leaning more towards sim (at least kind of implied as much with fuel and tire management etc) also suggests more of a direct competitor to GT. I have no doubt it'll be far better than GT in many ways that would be expected, graphics, general level of content and customisation etc.
But will the online be less of an arcade punt fest than FM7? I'm not sure, but if it is, I'll be happy. If it's FM7 again, I'll just keep playing GT or PC sims...
I thought the Forza presentation looked great. Leaning more towards sim (at least kind of implied as much with fuel and tire management etc) also suggests more of a direct competitor to GT. I have no doubt it'll be far better than GT in many ways that would be expected, graphics, general level of content and customisation etc.
But will the online be less of an arcade punt fest than FM7? I'm not sure, but if it is, I'll be happy. If it's FM7 again, I'll just keep playing GT or PC sims...
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HyperSpeeder
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The inevitable thread!
I think FM will take it in graphics and content. The rest... it's up to T10 to prove it. I just don't believe the game will have such detail without a compromise.
Online system will have penalties. FRR made strides, but still there was a lot of criticism regarding track limits and penalty consistency. Things T10 needs to address.
From an e-sports perspective, FM needs to rebuild from ground up because ForzaRC is dead and was never popular. GT already has a established championship. I could see some jumping ship if the game's good, but they're starting from zero here.
Biggest thing though is that, when it comes to the "sim experience", T10 has a lot more ground to make up than just pit stops and tire strategy. Most people underestimate the MFD, but that's the biggest thing that sets GT and FM apart IMO. The MFD actually gives meaning to strategy, which is never set in stone at the beginning of the race these days,
I think FM will take it in graphics and content. The rest... it's up to T10 to prove it. I just don't believe the game will have such detail without a compromise.
Online system will have penalties. FRR made strides, but still there was a lot of criticism regarding track limits and penalty consistency. Things T10 needs to address.
From an e-sports perspective, FM needs to rebuild from ground up because ForzaRC is dead and was never popular. GT already has a established championship. I could see some jumping ship if the game's good, but they're starting from zero here.
Biggest thing though is that, when it comes to the "sim experience", T10 has a lot more ground to make up than just pit stops and tire strategy. Most people underestimate the MFD, but that's the biggest thing that sets GT and FM apart IMO. The MFD actually gives meaning to strategy, which is never set in stone at the beginning of the race these days,
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ICEYOU3
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*Simlite
As for the trailer it looked good, but I don't think PD has anything to worry about as of yet. Nothing was shown that made it look like it's going to be something revolutionary. They spilled pretty much the same kinda rhetoric that Kaz and PD said before GT7's release.
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It's game pass...will be on PC...graphics pretty much certain to be far and away superior. Ray tracing is still a meme in console land for example, VRR isn't universal, over 60fps still uncommon or only with severely gimped graphics/resolution etc. Thinking otherwise is just pure ignorance lolAt the price of a massive discrepancy in quality of assets.
Well to be fair in terms of what they showed, the on track action itself, there isn't really anywhere left to be revolutionary in this genre. There is nowhere else you can go once you've reached relative realism in a sim. You can't revolutionise car graphics, track design, racing format, weather, it is what it is. Even things like damage, physics, weather they can only gradually evolve because we're talking about a game following reality. You can't add tornados or 360 loop the loop anti-gravity races.
Any revolution in racing games is now going to come from the structure and format of the game itself, the "career" mode if you will, and any extra non-track features, like when things like Livery Editors and Track Editors were introduced to racing games. That sort of thing is where we're going to see revolution, and they haven't shown their hand in any of that area yet.
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Was looking at this today. I'm still not sure I understand what Ray racing does. In GT7 replay mode I don't see any difference. I've never really been sold on Forza. Show me that I'm playing a definitively better game and I'll buy it. Otherwise, I'm very much going to stick with GT7. Spring 2023, that's 12 months of updates. I'm very much liking the dualsense and I know it won't have that. Project cars 2 was more the 2017 winner imo. No reason to hype this over project cars 4.
Why does it have to be better? Why not play both? Is Pizza better than Steak?
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Fair enough on the hardware front, but what about the allure of racing different cars and tracks? That should appeal to a car/racing fan. Lots of cars and tracks available in FM not in the GT series, and vice versa. Can't race in a Ford Capri at Circuit of the Americas on Gran Turismo, for example.
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ORVM has car body reflections
This ferrari on the GTR is a full RT reflection>
any time you see a car part (wing/mirror etc) reflecting on the body of the same car, it is because of RT.
the spokes of the rim reflecting itself on the lip of the rim is due to RT
RT just gives you more accurate reflections
Probably because ray tracing is rubbish on consoles - I don't think we'll ever see good in-gameplay ray tracing on this console gen (maybe with the pro refresh?), it'll only be gimped to 30fps/low res or otherwise implemented with very limited use/function set.
I'm not trying to be a PC elitist here, it's just fact. Actually I have seriesX/ps5/PC with rtx3080, and in the past couple months, GT7 has been by far my most played game, which tells me despite its flaws, I'm still enjoying it most for now
But it has a strong feeling of unfulfilled potential...whether this is filled by another game or a major GT7 patch, remains to be seenThis would be the main attraction for me, as well as other types of driving (e.g. drift is straight up trash in GT7), and part of why GT7 isn't the only racing game I play. FM7 was leaning too far arcade for me though.
HyperSpeeder
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Was there any mention of 4K? Raytracing at 4K60 with detailed physics is a very tall order.
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"Ray tracing" is pretty much what it sounds like; light rays are traced along their path and as they reflect off objects. "Real time ray tracing" adds a layer to that, by doing it... in real time, as opposed to "pre-baked", wherein light paths are pre-rendered in the environment and reflections are created as objects pass through them..
The thing you need to look for in ray tracing isn't straightforward reflection - the Ferrari 330 P4 and Porsche 911 reflecting off the black Nissan GT-R are just reflections and not necessarily ray tracing in action - but "interreflection". That's the ability for objects to reflect parts of themselves.
You can see ray tracing in effect on the GT-R with the wing mirror and rear wing reflected in the body beneath them. In the gameplay demo, Chris Esaki mentions the gold and titanium engine bay components reflecting each other in each other.
Yeah, pretty much the first thing said.
Also this thread is nuts. How are we supposed to guess what someone we don't know might have thought if he'd watched a video that, by all previous accounts, he might not have watched?
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The showcase came off very much feeling like these people are genuinely excited to show off a passion project. Never got that sense from all the videos of Kaz talking about car culture in front of a green screen. The content shown was more or less irrelevant.
Coupled with the Forza Monthly series, T10's level of community engagement blows PD out of the water.
Coupled with the Forza Monthly series, T10's level of community engagement blows PD out of the water.
I expect before the show Kaz, like me, was wondering if the rebooted Forza Motorsport would make a distinct departure away from Forza Horizon in terms of art style and presentation.
Post show it’s clear T10, for whatever reason, prefers the heightened sense of realism. It looks pretty, but it looks very game like. Lighting and the material quality used on cars is a significant step down from Gran Turismo 7. Then again FM’s foliage and track textures look a step up from GT7. It comes down to dev priorities and the limitations of cross-gen.
Despite the talk of racing features & regulations. The trailer doubled down on chaos, with sliding cars, crashes, and a pumping soundtrack. Neither was it clear if there is dynamic weather or how extensive it is. All around it’s just a very different presentational style from traditional GT’s.
I’m sure it will be an excellent game. I’m honestly not sure if the FM audience is still there beyond the initial Gamepass launch. FH seems to have all the mindshare for that franchise. Being 10 or more months away is also a downer. It will be interesting to see what PD delivers in that timeframe for GT7.
As ever competition is good.
Post show it’s clear T10, for whatever reason, prefers the heightened sense of realism. It looks pretty, but it looks very game like. Lighting and the material quality used on cars is a significant step down from Gran Turismo 7. Then again FM’s foliage and track textures look a step up from GT7. It comes down to dev priorities and the limitations of cross-gen.
Despite the talk of racing features & regulations. The trailer doubled down on chaos, with sliding cars, crashes, and a pumping soundtrack. Neither was it clear if there is dynamic weather or how extensive it is. All around it’s just a very different presentational style from traditional GT’s.
I’m sure it will be an excellent game. I’m honestly not sure if the FM audience is still there beyond the initial Gamepass launch. FH seems to have all the mindshare for that franchise. Being 10 or more months away is also a downer. It will be interesting to see what PD delivers in that timeframe for GT7.
As ever competition is good.
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These days 4K doesn’t necessarily mean native 4K. T10 have been working on dynamic resolutions. When it comes to Raytracing there’s no magic formula. These consoles are known quantities. To pull it off you need to make compromises & offer performance options.
This is a title that also needs to run on the Series S. So it’ll be very well optimised.
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What would Kaz think aside (I don't have an intimate, personal knowledge of Kaz, so I don't know what he'd think), I don't think FM8 is doing anything that is leaps and bounds ahead of GT7. The demo only shows one track, and it's a bright track which shows off colours. The exact same could be done with GT7.
Remember - you only show demos of the best bits.
One observation I have is that they kept mentioning "dynamic time of day" which is just that the time of day moves along, as it does in GT7, but they never mentioned "dynamic weather", just that the weather can impact the race, so it may be that FM8 has fixed weather or pre-determined, as opposed to GT7s dynamic "this race has 40% chance of rain" effects.
Remember - you only show demos of the best bits.
One observation I have is that they kept mentioning "dynamic time of day" which is just that the time of day moves along, as it does in GT7, but they never mentioned "dynamic weather", just that the weather can impact the race, so it may be that FM8 has fixed weather or pre-determined, as opposed to GT7s dynamic "this race has 40% chance of rain" effects.
HyperSpeeder
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Worth pointing out that Chris Esaki, creative director for this game, does not have a racing background. He was primarily involved in shooters such as Gears of War before being called to sort the mess that FM7 was. The only major staff that has appeared in public was former Papyrus, Matt Sentell. But he was there 20 years ago and worked outside the sim racing genre as well which is unusual for developers with a sim racing background unless they're artists. So all this could explain the more "gamey" look of FM.
Regarding the popularity, it's very strange. Microsoft needs T10 around, so they can keep supplying Playground with the engine. I wasn't able to find a player count, but the small space given to FM in ForzaMonthly seems to indicate FH has many times the number of players. Microsoft also never felt the need to add FM7 to Game Pass, choosing to do it only after support was ended.
FM has a tight community but it's been decreasing with every Horizon release, because Horizon nails the casual public that much better. In fact, I grew disillusioned with FM because it does seem the franchise that started it all became second thought to Microsoft. And they have a history of being ruthless with anything that does not sell.
Another problem FM will have IMO is that Microsoft will want to force crossplay between console, PC and... cloud. A sim racer played over the cloud? Seriously?
Indeed. I still wonder how they're gonna pull it off. And the use of raytracing calls into question how "accurate" the physics is, because hardcore sims don't run that well on the XSX and they sure don't feature RT.
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HyperSpeeder
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FM7 had weather based on % chance but it didn't have the cloud simulation GT does.
The engine has long been capable of dynamic time of day. Everyone else has it now, so it doesn't feel like a breakthrough. The surface changing does, but the impact remains to be seen.
Quakebass
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Realistically I can’t compare the two games till campaign and progression structuring, UI/UX, and game economy are more clear.
At this point both games do audio and visuals very well, Forza has a well-established track record of good depth of tuning and customization and livery editor features, and well-curated car and track list. As far as I’m concerned, GT and FM are pretty much level on this front (though GT could use a couple more tracks and more modern car selection), the only thing Forza usually has over GT at this point is AI. From here it’s all about the ecosystem the devs design for all the features to fit in.
PD royally botched 7’s campaign and main “meat and potatoes”, with it locking features and encouraging you to speed through the first ~1/3 of the game, dumping cars on you faster than you can use them (literally one per race sometimes with a further book reward, or mandating you use/reuse/modify a specific car you were awarded), and then not give enough events for you to use them all. And all the way through acting like it wants you to care about car collection and spending time observing details and getting to know individual cars. Progression is a direct linear path through the books, with a “collector level” feigning as an XP bar that functionally only holds purpose to unlock a few mission collections. And then when the books are done, there’s no more reward loop to work towards, no “end game”. Later collector levels don’t give any special rewards (tickets, special parts, etc), and the economy is still absurdly grindy if you want to go for the expensive legends cars. Even if lobbies and Sport mode worked a bit more correctly, and the AI was a bit more race-able, and custom grids and setups were made to be saves me templates, payouts for those areas in the game are some of the weakest anywhere, pretty much discouraging you from using them. Some of these problems are down to PD trying to funnel players towards microtransactions, some aren’t connected to the game economy at all and are just boneheaded decisions from the design department.
I never played FM5-7 to any sub stations extent, but I’m aware many made some major missteps (iirc, main complaints were that 5 was hyper small after resetting the assets for the XB1, 6 oversimplified tuning builds and basically enticed if not forced you to “auto-tune” and use 2-3 builds ever on any given car time to make a certain PP threshold, FM7 just kinda threw you through random races in random classes without any clear direction, and all did little to remedy aggressive online driving). IMO, GT7’s design (as I outlined above) was even worse than any of these, but we don’t know how the new FM will go. The last time I thoroughly enjoyed the design loop of either franchise was GT5 and FM4. Modern games have been increasingly plagued by scummy MT practices, and it seems there’s barely any developer or franchise that’s been left pure. The new FM could be god’s gift to the lite sim/caRPG, it could be the new rival to Battlefront 2/Diablo Immortals content-gouged “pay to enjoy” loop.
After GT7 I frankly won’t care about the presentation of any racing game anymore until I know more about it’s gameplay loops. There were red flags along they way but I overlooked them in my hype of seeing tuning and customization and a “traditional” (it wasn’t really) campaign return amidst all the visual, audio, physics, online and livery improvements and features brought on by Sport.
For the sake of the racing game community I really, really want this game to do well and be good. Competition breeds better games, and this space in the genre has been under-occupied and had sub-par representation for the last decade or so. I want GT7 to be improved in updates, and I want FM8 to be an excellent game. I want both studios (and others) to look at opposing products to encourage themselves to outdo each other.
At this point both games do audio and visuals very well, Forza has a well-established track record of good depth of tuning and customization and livery editor features, and well-curated car and track list. As far as I’m concerned, GT and FM are pretty much level on this front (though GT could use a couple more tracks and more modern car selection), the only thing Forza usually has over GT at this point is AI. From here it’s all about the ecosystem the devs design for all the features to fit in.
PD royally botched 7’s campaign and main “meat and potatoes”, with it locking features and encouraging you to speed through the first ~1/3 of the game, dumping cars on you faster than you can use them (literally one per race sometimes with a further book reward, or mandating you use/reuse/modify a specific car you were awarded), and then not give enough events for you to use them all. And all the way through acting like it wants you to care about car collection and spending time observing details and getting to know individual cars. Progression is a direct linear path through the books, with a “collector level” feigning as an XP bar that functionally only holds purpose to unlock a few mission collections. And then when the books are done, there’s no more reward loop to work towards, no “end game”. Later collector levels don’t give any special rewards (tickets, special parts, etc), and the economy is still absurdly grindy if you want to go for the expensive legends cars. Even if lobbies and Sport mode worked a bit more correctly, and the AI was a bit more race-able, and custom grids and setups were made to be saves me templates, payouts for those areas in the game are some of the weakest anywhere, pretty much discouraging you from using them. Some of these problems are down to PD trying to funnel players towards microtransactions, some aren’t connected to the game economy at all and are just boneheaded decisions from the design department.
I never played FM5-7 to any sub stations extent, but I’m aware many made some major missteps (iirc, main complaints were that 5 was hyper small after resetting the assets for the XB1, 6 oversimplified tuning builds and basically enticed if not forced you to “auto-tune” and use 2-3 builds ever on any given car time to make a certain PP threshold, FM7 just kinda threw you through random races in random classes without any clear direction, and all did little to remedy aggressive online driving). IMO, GT7’s design (as I outlined above) was even worse than any of these, but we don’t know how the new FM will go. The last time I thoroughly enjoyed the design loop of either franchise was GT5 and FM4. Modern games have been increasingly plagued by scummy MT practices, and it seems there’s barely any developer or franchise that’s been left pure. The new FM could be god’s gift to the lite sim/caRPG, it could be the new rival to Battlefront 2/Diablo Immortals content-gouged “pay to enjoy” loop.
After GT7 I frankly won’t care about the presentation of any racing game anymore until I know more about it’s gameplay loops. There were red flags along they way but I overlooked them in my hype of seeing tuning and customization and a “traditional” (it wasn’t really) campaign return amidst all the visual, audio, physics, online and livery improvements and features brought on by Sport.
For the sake of the racing game community I really, really want this game to do well and be good. Competition breeds better games, and this space in the genre has been under-occupied and had sub-par representation for the last decade or so. I want GT7 to be improved in updates, and I want FM8 to be an excellent game. I want both studios (and others) to look at opposing products to encourage themselves to outdo each other.
I'm not sure how much this helps. Look at the iRacing debacle that has been brewing for the last couple of years, especially when the cove caused many professional drivers to jump into it. The community (main forum and reddit) in general viciously attacks real life pro drivers who comment that their simulator has aspects (e.g. tyre model) that are totally inaccurate, that at higher splits people are gaming the physics in completely unrealistic ways etc and the devs ignore it, it's funny because you'd think the input of these real professional race drivers would be highly valued. Instead it is dismissed by reddit experts.
I guess for sim-lite/sim-cade titles it's less black and white
Series X won't be able to do it without severe compromises or very limited RT features. Same as PS5, it's just not capable. But FM is also on PC, and PC will be able to do it (especially since we'll have new gen of GPU by the time it releases), that's where the graphics will shine.
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