Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[Paulie]

Plus, the racing = much more important than the cars.

I agree, I was just asking/stating my intrigue.

Yeah, on the subject of Plato, he's a bit of a Schumacher really, I respect his driving ability and he does put on a good show when he scythes through the field to win.
However, I don't like his antics and even when I was younger I was happy to see Tommo give him some of his own medicine at Oulton Park 1999.

But regardless I agree, he's a necessary character. 👍

He drives a Chevy, he's cool. Congrats to Turks, I guess, not a BMW fan. I hope we get better coverage of the season next year here in Australia. I too hope the Cruze makes it in next season, even though it's an econobox I can't help thinking it's quite an attractive car.

 

[Ardius]

Yeah, I like the Cruze shape in WTCC, looks a lot better than the Lacetti. I'm not particularly a fan of BMW's, but I preferred to see Turkington win it rather than cheating Plato or moaning Giovanardi. Also great to see the first Northern Irish champion.
My favourite cars this season were the Ford Focus ST, Honda Civic, Honda Type R and the SEAT Leon, good liveries all round and great looking cars.

Any news on the team and driver line ups for next season yet?

 

[homeforsummer]

I agree, I was just asking/stating my intrigue.

Hope I cleared up your query then 👍

Yeah, I like the Cruze shape in WTCC, looks a lot better than the Lacetti. I'm not particularly a fan of BMW's, but I preferred to see Turkington win it rather than cheating Plato or moaning Giovanardi. Also great to see the first Northern Irish champion.

I watched Giovanardi for years in the ITCC and ETCC and I'm sure he used to be a bit more light-hearted than he seems to have been in the BTCC. Perhaps he doesn't like the British series being even more rough'n'tumble than the Italian/Euro series, or perhaps the step up in competition since his days in the Alfa has taken him by surprise - he never really had anyone come close to him when he was driving the Alfa 156 in the ITCC and ETCC. In the British series, there are a good ten drivers all quick enough to take the title (even if consistency is a problem for some of them).

My favourite cars this season were the Ford Focus ST, Honda Civic, Honda Type R and the SEAT Leon, good liveries all round and great looking cars.

The BMW is my favourite closely followed by the Civic, but then with the Honda it's mainly due to the efforts of Tommo and Herbert, with Tommo in particular being one of my favourite racing drivers full-stop. In recent years though the Integra has probably been my favourite. It's a fantastic looking car and an amazing piece of engineering.

Any news on the team and driver line ups for next season yet?

Well with Vauxhall out there are a few drivers floating around without definite drives, and apparently Fabrizio isn't sure whether he's staying in the British series or not.

Neal is apparently returning to Team Dynamics so that covers another ex-Vauxhall man. I reckon the Chevy lineup will stay the same - the drivers seem to be enjoying themselves too much and Chevy are coming along in leaps and bounds. Whether they'll keep the Lacetti is another matter.

I don't think there'll be too much movement unless other manufacturers enter or leave. The privateers, as ever, will pretty much get whatever cars they can lay their hands on though I'd be surprised if there weren't a few more SEATs next year given how many there seem to be in series across the world.

I tell you what we need next year:

​

Head-cams, like in the STCC. Those are some great views of the action.

 

[Prince.M5]

My favourite car obviously is BMW because it has a package for touring car... Talking about the Chevy, I like Cruze shape more than the Lacetti for some reason...

Now for next year, I would like they to have that Head-cams and also on-board cams and I agree that we can see some great actions in there!!! But boy that Volvo was quick !!!

Sadly in the video, both their drivers gone off track...

 

[Paulie]

Hope I cleared up your query then 👍

Yep.👍

My favourite car obviously is BMW because it has a package for touring car... Talking about the Chevy, I like Cruze shape more than the Lacetti for some reason...

Because the Cruze is attractive and the Lacetti is a truly Korean looking dull econobox?

 

[TheCracker]

Well with Vauxhall out there are a few drivers floating around without definite drives, and apparently Fabrizio isn't sure whether he's staying in the British series or not.

Neal is apparently returning to Team Dynamics so that covers another ex-Vauxhall man. I reckon the Chevy lineup will stay the same - the drivers seem to be enjoying themselves too much and Chevy are coming along in leaps and bounds. Whether they'll keep the Lacetti is another matter.

I don't think there'll be too much movement unless other manufacturers enter or leave. The privateers, as ever, will pretty much get whatever cars they can lay their hands on though I'd be surprised if there weren't a few more SEATs next year given how many there seem to be in series across the world.

Is it 2010 or 2011 that the BTCC regulations change again, ruling out RWD cars?

What cars are used next season depends to an extent on which cars are still eligible. Like Paulie mentioned, some of the cars used are getting long in the tooth and might fall out of homologation. But i can't find any reference to the time scale for this in the FIA tech regs.

I wonder if VX Racing will sell it's Vectras on to independent teams?

 

[homeforsummer]

2011, and teams will still be able to run the current cars if, for example, they can't afford to buy the brand new ones straight away. I think the current cars will finally be phased out by about 2014 if I recall correctly.

The oldest cars currently in use in the series (to my knowledge) are the EP-shape Civic and the Astra Coupe, both of which are about five years old now (I don't think anyone runs the MG any more, though I could be mistaken). The rest of the cars aren't really that old (as I already mentioned) as they've been constantly developed by the factory teams, so there's plenty of life left in them. As for homologation, I'd assume that it won't be a problem. Homologation lasts for absolutely years unless the FIA changes the rules significantly to a series. The main problem for older race cars is simply not having anywhere to race them, and that's the idea behind allowing the S2000 cars to run alongside the newer turbocharged cars when they arrive. Not to mention there are that many S2000 spec cars knocking about that one of the smaller motorsport organisations could easily start their own series for the cars.

I'm personally not too keen on the idea of the RWDs being phased out. Not sure how BMW are going to go about that one. Their car is without doubt one of the most immaculate touring cars being run today and it's always a pleasure to watch the drivers having those sideways moments.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see some Vectras being run independantly, as every previous Vauxhall has been run by privateers in the past, and you presume that the race-team mechanics for the factory squad might now be looking for other places to work... a privateer team running the cars would be only too happy to take them on.

 

[TheCracker]

2011, and teams will still be able to run the current cars if, for example, they can't afford to buy the brand new ones straight away. I think the current cars will finally be phased out by about 2014 if I recall correctly.

The oldest cars currently in use in the series (to my knowledge) are the EP-shape Civic and the Astra Coupe, both of which are about five years old now (I don't think anyone runs the MG any more, though I could be mistaken). The rest of the cars aren't really that old (as I already mentioned) as they've been constantly developed by the factory teams, so there's plenty of life left in them. As for homologation, I'd assume that it won't be a problem. Homologation lasts for absolutely years unless the FIA changes the rules significantly to a series. The main problem for older race cars is simply not having anywhere to race them, and that's the idea behind allowing the S2000 cars to run alongside the newer turbocharged cars when they arrive. Not to mention there are that many S2000 spec cars knocking about that one of the smaller motorsport organisations could easily start their own series for the cars.

I'm personally not too keen on the idea of the RWDs being phased out. Not sure how BMW are going to go about that one. Their car is without doubt one of the most immaculate touring cars being run today and it's always a pleasure to watch the drivers having those sideways moments.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to see some Vectras being run independantly, as every previous Vauxhall has been run by privateers in the past, and you presume that the race-team mechanics for the factory squad might now be looking for other places to work... a privateer team running the cars would be only too happy to take them on.

I know WSR could no longer use the MG in 2007, to quote wiki "For 2007 the MG was no longer eligible to win the championship outright" but can't find any reference to why this was the case and why the Alfa 156 and Astra are still used?

One of the reasons Touring Car racing has traditionally been popular is because the cars are all different (and the man on the street can identify with them) and because they all have their own strengths and weeknesses. BTCC and other S2000 Touring car series all have similar spec cars, which keeps costs down, yet makes the difference between marques slight. The BMW with it's RWD is quite a major difference and is partially why you have good close competition. Moving the specs closer is a step closer to a dull one-make series IMO.

When i first got into watching Touring Cars in the late '80's we had 5.0 ltr Mustangs and Commodores, RS500 Cosworths, BMW M3s, Maserati Bi-Turbos, Vauxhall Astras and Toyota Corollas all competing in the same races but in different classes, it made for some fantastic racing.

 

[Spec M]

It really bugs me that we dont have the Eurosport ch. here and theres no source for watching WTCC except youtube for me. All we have is the rediculously lame "Speed" channel which shows nascar 20hrs a day .

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

(I don't think anyone runs the MG any more, though I could be mistaken).

There's one being entered next year

 

[TheCracker]

It really bugs me that we dont have the Eurosport ch. here and theres no source for watching WTCC except youtube for me. All we have is the rediculously lame "Speed" channel which shows nascar 20hrs a day .

There is an online Eurosport 'player' that you can, for a cost, subscribe to. I don't know though if it's available worldwide or just for Europeans?

 

[Spec M]

^Thanks for the link TheCracker, I appreciate the reference.

 

[TAFKADY]

Congratulations to Timo Scheider and Audi for winning DTM again, they did a better job again. Amazing how Scheider avoided trouble the whole season. Norbert Haug from Mercedes doesn't seem to be too disappointed since they won more races.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Anyone who missed the DTM race can watch it here.

http://www.sportschau.de/sp/dtm/

 

[daan]

Congrats to James "Jimmy" Thompson for winning the FIA European Super 2000 Cup at the weekend. 👍

THOMPSON WINS EUROPEAN CUP AFTER A TOUGH FIGHT

Touring car ace James Thompson added another jewel to his already rich crown by clinching the FIA European Super 2000 Cup after a couple of hectic races at Braga today. After finishing third in the first race on a wet track, the Briton and his Honda Accord took the most out of the nearly dry asphalt in the second race and overturned the situation by jumping ahead of rivals Franz Engstler and Norbert Michelisz.

The final result meant that there were three different manufacturers represented on the podium: Honda, BMW and SEAT. In five editions of the cup Honda is the fourth manufacturer to win the S2000 trophy after BMW, SEAT (twice) and Chevrolet.

Thompson's victory, added to Harry Vaulhards points, also meant that Great Britain was awarded the Nation's Cup.

Latvian driver Marcis Birkens (Honda Civic) won the Super Production cup, becoming the first Baltic driver to win an FIA ETCC title, while Carsten Seifer (Ford Fiesta) continued Germany's winning tradition in the S1600 cup.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=350336&FS=

 

[Moglet]

Here's a sneak preview of something unfinished for you guys, recently announced by AmD;

I'm doing a bit of stuff for their promo pics so keep your eyes peeled for the car in it's final body shape. 👍

 

[homeforsummer]

Thanks for the pics Mog, not been in this thread in a while. I'd seen on Touring Car Times that there was going to be a BTCC-spec VW. Nice to have another shape in the series, albeit not a particularly attractive one.

More Tommo news, in that he's going to be as busy as ever this season and hasn't ruled out BTCC appearances. If he turns up at Croft again I'll be happy enough. He has confirmed that he won't be piloting the Lada again though, which is kind of unfortunate from Lada's point of view as Tommo would have been the perfect driver to help them develop it, even if it means he wouldn't be as competitive in that series as he might like.

Anyway, he'll be driving an Accord in the DTC, STCC and ETCC. Should be interesting to follow his progress.

I know WSR could no longer use the MG in 2007, to quote wiki "For 2007 the MG was no longer eligible to win the championship outright" but can't find any reference to why this was the case and why the Alfa 156 and Astra are still used?

Sorry Dan, I didn't see this comment all those months ago. I can't find a reason around the internet as to why the MG lost it's points eligibility, though I wonder if they were running on an old homologation from when the Rover 400 first appeared and it ran out. I thought at first that it was due the model not being available any longer, but then I realised how long the 156 had been racing after they stopped selling it too...

 

[Clark]

The Civic, Astra and MG etc. were built under BTCC-specific BTC rules. From 2007 onwards BTCC switched to S2000 and any other BTC cars were still allowed to race but they couldn't win the championship.
WSR are far more professional than the people who run BTC spec cars currently (mainly gentleman drivers who just do it for enjoyment), so Dick Bennetts saw it necessary to run cars eligible for the title and it payed off.

@Moglet: I saw that Golf at Autosport Interational last month (amongst all the 2009 BTCC cars and Andrew Jordan's 2010 Pirtek Vectra) and it was... meh? Not as nice as the Civic.

 

[homeforsummer]

The Civic, Astra and MG etc. were built under BTCC-specific BTC rules. From 2007 onwards BTCC switched to S2000 and any other BTC cars were still allowed to race but they couldn't win the championship.
WSR are far more professional than the people who run BTC spec cars currently (mainly gentleman drivers who just do it for enjoyment), so Dick Bennetts saw it necessary to run cars eligible for the title and it payed off.

Ah yes! That was it. I forgot that when the new cars were introduced in 2001 that the BTCC decided not to go with the S2000-spec cars that the ETCC and later WTCC adopted. Seemed like a daft move as they were very similar anyway. But yeah, that'll be it then. The MGs were essentially built under a different set of rules from the other cars on the grid. In contrast, the 156 had been S2000 all along (after they switched from SuperTouring spec) and the Astra hatchback (though not the coupe) was designed outright as an S2000 car, as far as I know.

 

[Clark]

The Vectra is S2000, I don't know whether the Astra Sporthatch was S2000 or not.

 

[homeforsummer]

You're correct. There are lists on Wiki. To be honest, it confuses the hell out of me. I just assumed that from 2004-ish onwards all the new entrants to the series were built to S2000 regs. What actually happened is this:

* BTC-T Vauxhall Astra Coupe
* BTC-T Peugeot 406 Coupe
* BTC-T Alfa Romeo 147
* BTC-T Lexus IS200
* BTC-T MG ZS EX259
* BTC-T Honda Civic Type-R
* BTC-T Proton Impian
* BTC-T Peugeot 307
* BTC-T Vauxhall Vectra
* BTC-T Vauxhall Astra Sport Hatch
* BTC-T Honda Integra Type R

* BMW 320si
* SEAT León TFSI
* Chevrolet Cruze
* Chevrolet Lacetti
* Alfa Romeo 156
* Vauxhall Vectra
* Honda Accord
* Honda Civic Type R
* Peugeot 407
* Peugeot 307
* Volvo C30
* Lexus IS200
* Lada 110
* Lada Priora
* Ford Focus ST

It seems daft how long the BTCC went along with BTC. I can only assume, given how similar the two specs seem to be, that the BTC spec was somehow cheaper (I do seem to remember that certain parts, like the gearbox and brakes, were the same across all the cars - wheras I know that S2000-spec run different brakes and gearboxes).

 

[RyanWreck]

I'm really excited to see how that AmD Golf will turn out since I am a huge VW fan. Definitely a fan of the livery too.

x
x
x

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm guessing you missed the last page then...

 

[RyanWreck]

Oh, well apparently I did.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Anyone going to Thruxton this weekend?

 

[Clark]

Too far away for me. I'm going to Silverstone and Donington.

I'm still interested to see who 888 sign as their second driver, aswell.

 

[Ardius]

^Hopefully Turkington, but its not looking like its going to happen.

I'm looking at going to Oulton this year, rather than going to several events like last year (F3, British GT, FPA). Can't believe we are being spoiled with a 23-car grid!

 

[Clark]

I was more hoping Gio would get it but that's not very likely.

Apparently Turkington's supposed to be running a WSR 320si in all the European rounds of the WTCC but doesn't want to do BTCC. I find it a bit silly if that's the case, as the BTCC as booming now and a good place to be to get noticed, whereas I don't think there's much coverage of being an Indy in WTCC, not even if you win it.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Given the strong showing from WSR/Team RAC last year, both full-time drivers fail to make the grid this year, shame.

 

[Clark]

I'm not sure Stephen Jelley was really good enough to keep that seat anyway, at times he was, but wasn't up to the same standard as Turkington for most of the season.