Toyota Supra (A90)
- Thread starter RocZX
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- GTPlanet
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- Quattro Saltire
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- MrWilso92
I really wont be interested unless they say the TS030 drivetrain is powering it 
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- HamiltonMP427
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- GTPlanet
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Weight is the main problem with hybrid drivetrains, but the technology is constantly improving as well as improvements in packaging.
Hybrid sports cars will be here to stay and are likely the future of performance motoring i.e. new NSX, BMW i8 etc.
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- HamiltonMP427
Of course and usually the issue is the battery pack, but a capacitor wouldn't be as bad. Either way speed can be achieved, balance should be the worry.
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- Duisburg
You see, to me, going fast is one thing. But generally speaking, I'd say that increased will impair the handling abilities of most cars. I think Chris Harris had it right: You just keep thinking "what would the car be like if it had 150 HP less, but 400 pounds gone as well?"
You see, I'm a bit of technophile and I have absolutely nothing against hybrid technology. Well, I do have a few bones to pick here and there because they're nowhere near as environmentally friendly as they're made out to be due to the pollution caused by producing and recycling of the battery packs and holier-than-thou-art attitude some hybrid drivers seem to have; but aside from that, I'm in no way against it.
But: A sports car isn't the sort of car that comes to my mind when thinking about the environment and good MPG. I know that it's more important these days than it ever was. But... Do people really buy a Toyota Supra when they're concerned about the MPG it's going to get and CO2 it's going to emit? Toyota's barking up the wrong tree, I'd say. Someone who's bothered by the MPG and carbon dioxide footprint of their car would likely be in the market for Prius - and, honestly, who would cross-shop a Prius and Supra?
That's what's irking me. They're putting stuff into a sports car that's for people who wouldn't really buy a sports car in the first place. Now, I don't want to say that this is universally true. I suppose that there's a certain audience for hybrid sports cars - but, to me, those two things don't really go together all that well. Call me old-fashioned if you want to
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- HamiltonMP427
You see, to me, going fast is one thing. But generally speaking, I'd say that increased will impair the handling abilities of most cars. I think Chris Harris had it right: You just keep thinking "what would the car be like if it had 150 HP less, but 400 pounds gone as well?"
You see, I'm a bit of technophile and I have absolutely nothing against hybrid technology. Well, I do have a few bones to pick here and there because they're nowhere near as environmentally friendly as they're made out to be due to the pollution caused by producing and recycling of the battery packs and holier-than-thou-art attitude some hybrid drivers seem to have; but aside from that, I'm in no way against it.
But: A sports car isn't the sort of car that comes to my mind when thinking about the environment and good MPG. I know that it's more important these days than it ever was. But... Do people really buy a Toyota Supra when they're concerned about the MPG it's going to get and CO2 it's going to emit? Toyota's barking up the wrong tree, I'd say. Someone who's bothered by the MPG and carbon dioxide footprint of their car would likely be in the market for Prius - and, honestly, who would cross-shop a Prius and Supra?
That's what's irking me. They're putting stuff into a sports car that's for people who wouldn't really buy a sports car in the first place. Now, I don't want to say that this is universally true. I suppose that there's a certain audience for hybrid sports cars - but, to me, those two things don't really go together all that well. Call me old-fashioned if you want to
The problem is you can't look at the car buying world as it was 10-15 years ago. People are looking at all cars with the sense of "well it has performance, economy, and good more so for the environment". Due to popular media, people now feel that they are doing good by buying a economical type car in any form that helps the environment and decreases on gas usage, but also good on the wallet. I mean if this was 1997 I would be with you and hate the vvti version Toyota put out, and ask why when I could have the turbo instead of a wanna-be gas saving sports car with not nearly the punch.
Like I said I'm old fashioned too, but I'm a fan of engineering and I think fans of technology like the meshing and advancing of such ideas. I still say if the car has a good unique balance that allows it perform well, that is all that should matter. I think many groups are improving handling for such massive power leaps and having a heavy powerful car vs a lighter less powerful car is being blurred fast. Also what is light and less powerful that line is shifting further and further. What would be considered powerful back in the day (90s and earlier) is actually becoming a norm. It wasn't that long ago that 305hp was something to jump up and down about, now it's easy to find in any mid range line up.
Joel
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- Noob616
Well I guess the other side is that with the increased weight comes a much flatter powerband because of the low end torque you get from electric motors. The electric motor could conceivably be pushing the car up to where the engine begins making peak power, so you're in your peak power range for a lot longer. Especially for the 0-60 launch which is a pretty important metric in selling sports cars.
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- HamiltonMP427
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- bramturismo
I'm very exited about Toyota's future. Some years ago Toyota was the world's most boring manufacturer in many peoples eyes. Now they arguably sell the most fun to drive car on the market, as well as one of the most, of not the most, technologically advanced supercars. Although they're not producing any more LFA's. Toyota pretty much proving they can build anything with their masterminds behind it. Hearing this new sportscar sharing the same hybrid technology with the TS030 makes it even better. I don't doubt for a second this new sportscar will be just as impressive as the LFA and GT86.
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- GTP_SEMS
Been thinking the same for a while,Lexus have been doing some decent cars,GT-86 has been a massive hit and a future classic plus the fact the most boring car maker in the world has been racing in F1 and lately running a LMP program.
The honor know probably goes to Honda
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- HamiltonMP427
I'd say Toyota are still very boring and are just starting to become fun again.
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- Duisburg
LMSCorvetteGT2, I'll agree with a lot of what you're saying. Sportscars nowadays have to be equally fast, environmentally friendly and somewhat economical. And it makes sense for Toyota to deliver just that. These "grudges" I harbor are mostly a personal thing, really. Like, people who buy these cars. If they cared about the environment, really cared about it, they wouldn't buy a sports car.
Now, that isn't Toyota's fault. I might even underestimate the audience there is for that sort of car, to be quite honest - which, then, might stem from my personal dislike for that sort of idea. Thing is, making it a hybrid seems like Toyota following general automotive trends. They went against that with the 86, which seems to be a runaway success for them. I kinda hoped they'd do the same with the next Supra. Would probably have been a bold move, but I suppose that some would've said so about the 86 as well.
Now, that isn't Toyota's fault. I might even underestimate the audience there is for that sort of car, to be quite honest - which, then, might stem from my personal dislike for that sort of idea. Thing is, making it a hybrid seems like Toyota following general automotive trends. They went against that with the 86, which seems to be a runaway success for them. I kinda hoped they'd do the same with the next Supra. Would probably have been a bold move, but I suppose that some would've said so about the 86 as well.
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That's one way of looking at it, but it's not the only way.
Other options:
1) Hybrid tech is, at the end of the day, technology. If well-implemented, it can appeal on a far broader spectrum than just eco stuff.
2) Performance. There is no mechanical device on sale today that can give a sports car so much low-down power as an electric motor. Well, without making it borderline undriveable by using motorsport-style things like anti-lag (in a turbo car, obviously). Over those first few thousand rpm, electric motors rule.
3) Advanced handling traits. You mention Chris Harris - just have a look at his vid of the Mercedes SLS Electric Drive - he's rather fond of the car's torque vectoring, and that's something that hybrid drive can add to pretty much any sports car if implemented well.
4) Okay, the eco thing too, but maybe not how you think. Electric running at low speeds is actually pretty cool - who wants to burn loads of petrol in traffic? It's essentially saving your hard-earned for those flat-out drives...
Also, who's to say people who care about the environment shouldn't be able to buy a sports car... or those who like sports cars don't care about the environment?
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I think I've answered bits of that above, but:
1+2) I haven't seen it implemented in road going cars in a way that made me think "that's amazing!", so I'm a bist sceptical it'll be pulled off all that well this time. See, I remember the hype surrounding the Tesla S because of its "monster torque from 0 rpm", but it's not what I'd call a high-performer for the price. I guess my view on that sort of thing is a bit skewed
3) I've got to admit, I've neglected torque-vectoring and the like alltogether. That could indeed offsett a higher weight.
4) Not that I don't get why hybrid tech would be useful to a sports car for saving fuel... Far from it. I'm just the kind of person who'd rather have a more "pure" sports car and an economic daily driver than something that mixes both things to a certain degree, I'd say. At times, I just tend to think too much into stuff like that, thus (wrongly) attributing that to more people than I should.
1+2) I haven't seen it implemented in road going cars in a way that made me think "that's amazing!", so I'm a bist sceptical it'll be pulled off all that well this time. See, I remember the hype surrounding the Tesla S because of its "monster torque from 0 rpm", but it's not what I'd call a high-performer for the price. I guess my view on that sort of thing is a bit skewed
3) I've got to admit, I've neglected torque-vectoring and the like alltogether. That could indeed offsett a higher weight.
4) Not that I don't get why hybrid tech would be useful to a sports car for saving fuel... Far from it. I'm just the kind of person who'd rather have a more "pure" sports car and an economic daily driver than something that mixes both things to a certain degree, I'd say. At times, I just tend to think too much into stuff like that, thus (wrongly) attributing that to more people than I should.
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If Toyota puts a hybrid system in the new Supra, maybe the weight gains from packaging the batteries could be balanced with involvement from BMW's recent knowledge on light weight construction (i3, i8 et al) as well as technology from their ActiveHybrid range. That would only really happen if a new Supra comes from the anticipated BMW-Toyota sports car collaboration
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- HamiltonMP427
To be honest I like the sound of it, and what I've seen them do in WEC makes me want one that much more. I hope 2017/2018 they do bring it out, by that time I should have enough money to buy one.
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1+2) I haven't seen it implemented in road going cars in a way that made me think "that's amazing!", so I'm a bist sceptical it'll be pulled off all that well this time. See, I remember the hype surrounding the Tesla S because of its "monster torque from 0 rpm", but it's not what I'd call a high-performer for the price. I guess my view on that sort of thing is a bit skewed
$83k (Model S Performance) for over 2 tonnes of rear-drive luxury sedan with a 4.2-second 0-60 time isn't a high performer for the price?
Maybe I'm out of step for the market segment, but I suspect you'd struggle to match that for similar money in a similar car.
The thing here isn't so much it not being implemented in a way that impresses you yet, as the suggestion that with... roughly zero existing hybrid sports cars on the market you're already prepared to dismiss the concept
I actually agree with you here. My perfect realistic garage, at the moment at least, would comprise a cool classic weekend car, and an incredibly economical, probably hybrid daily driver.
However, I don't see the engineering merit of making a high-tech Japanese sports car and not pushing the boat out a little with the powertrain. With the next wave of NSX/GTRs/Supras/Z-cars I'd almost be disappointed if they weren't hybrids etc. The Japanese car industry cranking out a "me too" bog-standard petrol-only sports car would seem really backward to me.
That, and it'd be commercial suicide for Toyota to make something that broke no new ground when the entire rest of the market was churning out crazy high-tech stuff.
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- gdwest1
Errrr, FR-S?
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The BreezFrees is different, because there hadn't been an entry in the market built from scratch they put it into for nearly 10 years (15 years in America); Solstice Targa excepting.
Meanwhile, the personal coupe niche has recently become as packed with entries as it was in the late 80s.
Meanwhile, the personal coupe niche has recently become as packed with entries as it was in the late 80s.
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- HamiltonMP427
I agree with everything Homeforthesummer is saying but I don't agree that in the luxury sedan performance market part. At 83k a 4.2 0-60 time really isn't special or the best bang for buck, compared to other electrics or hybrids I think Tesla is just a trendy brand that a-list celebs name throw.
