TRAFFIC STOP: Shooting of minivan filled with kids.

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Anytime I see a video like this I question the law that was broken. A "law" is a self admitting fault in the system. You want people not to speed, put speed limiters in the cars. There was no need for any of that to take place. Same thing when I see traffic signs like "bridge freezes in winter," OK then make it so it doesn't freeze. Easy.
 
Anytime I see a video like this I question the law that was broken. A "law" is a self admitting fault in the system. You want people not to speed, put speed limiters in the cars. There was no need for any of that to take place. Same thing when I see traffic signs like "bridge freezes in winter," OK then make it so it doesn't freeze. Easy.

The world's not perfect... sometimes we just have to deal with it.
 
Anytime I see a video like this I question the law that was broken. A "law" is a self admitting fault in the system. You want people not to speed, put speed limiters in the cars. There was no need for any of that to take place. Same thing when I see traffic signs like "bridge freezes in winter," OK then make it so it doesn't freeze. Easy.
It takes money and time to put in "limiters" and both to find solutions to solve the road freezing.
 
I think most of us had no doubt that he was going for the tires. Having said that, even if there was someone shooting from the vehicle, it would've been questionable decision to shoot at a van full of children.

I'm sorry the officer lost his job, but I hope he realize that he was extremely lucky to come out of this with no one injured, or losing their lives. What he did wasn't a 'human' error either. He was certainly not cut out for that line of work. :crazy:
 
I'm not sorry he lost his job. I'm glad that an officer who did not display proper critical thinking skills was removed from duty.

I mean, really. What if he's successful and gets one of the tires? Then what? The lunatic behind the wheel is just going to pull over and stop in a calm and controlled fashion? I doubt it. I think it's more likely that she would lose control of the vehicle and then that brings up a risk of there being a fatal accident involving those children.

She should be in prison for putting those kids' lives in danger, he should be looking for a different line of work. The good news is that we're halfway there, and thankfully (as you mentioned), no one was killed or seriously injured.
----------------

What are your thoughts on the young man?
 
What are your thoughts on the young man?
He was underage, wasn't he? If so, I hope the system take into account that the kid was put in a impossible situation. Unless he was of legal age, personally, I couldn't hold someone responsible for fighting off the police in a situation like this.
 
Anytime I see a video like this I question the law that was broken. A "law" is a self admitting fault in the system. You want people not to speed, put speed limiters in the cars. There was no need for any of that to take place. Same thing when I see traffic signs like "bridge freezes in winter," OK then make it so it doesn't freeze. Easy.

The part in bold makes me wonder if you are actually serious about what you've said or if it is tongue-in-cheek...
 
He was underage, wasn't he? If so, I hope the system take into account that the kid was put in a impossible situation. Unless he was of legal age, personally, I couldn't hold someone responsible for fighting off the police in a situation like this.

My thoughts exactly. Hoping he gets a slap on the wrist, even if assault on an LEO is a serious offense.
 
The part in bold makes me wonder if you are actually serious about what you've said or if it is tongue-in-cheek...
No I'm extremely serious. Even laws like school zones, there should not be a law, there should be a mandatory speed limiter. What point of the law if even one child died from one speeder? If there was a speed restricted engine on that minivan none of that video would've ever happened. Same goes for many of our laws.
 
Just how do you propose to build a bridge that does not freeze before surrounding areas? Do you know why it happens in the first place?
 
No I'm extremely serious. Even laws like school zones, there should not be a law, there should be a mandatory speed limiter. What point of the law if even one child died from one speeder? If there was a speed restricted engine on that minivan none of that video would've ever happened. Same goes for many of our laws.

Please go read The Giver and 1984 for differing approaches on the extremely flawed nature of such notions from a philosophical and moral standpoint.

Logistically, your proposals are very unrealistic simply by the logistics of developing such systems. Having vehicles slow for certain zones means that you must communicate the speed limit to the vehicle, it's speedometer must be accurate, the system has to extremely secure, retrofitting all vehicles, installing these systems are every speed zone change, etc. This would be absurdly expensive in a country the size of the USA. It would also mean that people can not interfere with their car's control system at all, along with removing the choice of accelerating to avoid a situation, which in turn would worsen some situations. Expanding on that, there would be concerns of removing such systems malicious, hacking, failures, to what extent is remote control given.

As for the bridge bit, keeping many large bridges ice free in colder climates is, again, absurdly expensive. And again, what do we do if those systems fail and people don't realize there is ice? What about keeping entire roads from icing over, which is an issue 4 months of every year where I live. How do you maintain the road structure for half a continent to not freeze?

It is just beyond naive to think such things are realistic, disregarding moral and philosophical concerns.
 
Speed isn't inherently problematic; it's irresponsible driving that's dangerous. An inattentive driver going 15mph through a crowded school zone is a greater threat than an alert driver going 35mph through a school zone with no visual obstructions on the roadside and the kids standing dozens of feet from the curb, even if the latter driver is breaking the law. By removing all responsibility of speed control from the driver, you'd arguably encourage more distracted driving in general.

Might as well jump straight to AI-controlled cars, which are already on the way. However, even that solution isn't tenable for all drivers, everywhere, in all situations, so don't get your hopes up for mandatory AI cars across the board.
 
No I'm extremely serious. Even laws like school zones, there should not be a law, there should be a mandatory speed limiter. What point of the law if even one child died from one speeder? If there was a speed restricted engine on that minivan none of that video would've ever happened. Same goes for many of our laws.

Oh, dear. Well, here we go.

Red-Bull-Stratos-Jump.gif
 
No I'm extremely serious. Even laws like school zones, there should not be a law, there should be a mandatory speed limiter. What point of the law if even one child died from one speeder? If there was a speed restricted engine on that minivan none of that video would've ever happened. Same goes for many of our laws.

I'm amused that this is coming from someone with the username "savant"...
 
I would have said speed limiters are useless because wire cutters are fairly easily available.

Also, scissors, box cutters, pliers and teeth.

The only people who wouldn't disconnect their speed limiter are exactly the people who would never have been speeding anyway.
 
Or people too dense to know anything about electronics.

I think some speed limiters can now work from the VSS which is feeds into the ECU, then the ECU limits power like it limits RPM and prevents red lineing a car and disconnecting it causes the speedometer to read 0 or could even force the car into limp mode.
 
Please go read The Giver and 1984 for differing approaches on the extremely flawed nature of such notions from a philosophical and moral standpoint.

Logistically, your proposals are very unrealistic simply by the logistics of developing such systems. Having vehicles slow for certain zones means that you must communicate the speed limit to the vehicle, it's speedometer must be accurate, the system has to extremely secure, retrofitting all vehicles, installing these systems are every speed zone change, etc. This would be absurdly expensive in a country the size of the USA. It would also mean that people can not interfere with their car's control system at all, along with removing the choice of accelerating to avoid a situation, which in turn would worsen some situations. Expanding on that, there would be concerns of removing such systems malicious, hacking, failures, to what extent is remote control given.

As for the bridge bit, keeping many large bridges ice free in colder climates is, again, absurdly expensive. And again, what do we do if those systems fail and people don't realize there is ice? What about keeping entire roads from icing over, which is an issue 4 months of every year where I live. How do you maintain the road structure for half a continent to not freeze?

It is just beyond naive to think such things are realistic, disregarding moral and philosophical concerns.

Please go read The Giver and 1984 for differing approaches on the extremely flawed nature of such notions from a philosophical and moral standpoint.

Logistically, your proposals are very unrealistic simply by the logistics of developing such systems. Having vehicles slow for certain zones means that you must communicate the speed limit to the vehicle, it's speedometer must be accurate, the system has to extremely secure, retrofitting all vehicles, installing these systems are every speed zone change, etc. This would be absurdly expensive in a country the size of the USA. It would also mean that people can not interfere with their car's control system at all, along with removing the choice of accelerating to avoid a situation, which in turn would worsen some situations. Expanding on that, there would be concerns of removing such systems malicious, hacking, failures, to what extent is remote control given.

As for the bridge bit, keeping many large bridges ice free in colder climates is, again, absurdly expensive. And again, what do we do if those systems fail and people don't realize there is ice? What about keeping entire roads from icing over, which is an issue 4 months of every year where I live. How do you maintain the road structure for half a continent to not freeze?

It is just beyond naive to think such things are realistic, disregarding moral and philosophical concerns.

Ok, I'll check it out but for the answer to ^ everything you put above, it's already typed out in a book called "the best that money can't buy." The solutions are not really that difficult, also you site money as the biggest factor which is interesting because we have a fiat currency system that allows for unlimited allocation. It's why it's called FIAT currency, you can make as much as you want due to the fact that it's an artificial scarcity and not a natural scarcity. It's absurdly naive to think we don't have to money to do anything that I posted previously, look at the laughable bank bail out. We needed trillions and bam! Overnight we had trillions, plus if there were to be a big sweeping change to the driver systems in vehicles that was GOV mandated, it unlike the bail out, would boost the economy, make jobs and and strengthen growth. But honestly I find the current system paradigm outdated. And the view point you follow is a facet of the system you were raised in and I hear it from many people that have never entertain truly alternative solutions. Not the fake "Prius solutions."

Unlike everyone else who'll blame the cop, the mother or the kids in the OP'S video. I blame the law and the failure to put humans before a false economy.

I believe it's naive to think that what we have currently is healthy and will last us forever. I chose to think differently and not disregard moral, philosophical and human concerns at the cost of "money." For you'rs is an argument I will never understand. "We can't afford it!" Why? We make the money... out of thin air I might add.

PS, I really enjoy this type of conversation, this is truly valuable in terms of discussing the human value. But I must add that if at this point you are not following my train of thought and think I sound like socialist, communist, Marxist, or something along those lines (hippie) please hold off on your rebuttal until you've completed the book. Other wise.... continue on.
 
I would have said speed limiters are useless because wire cutters are fairly easily available.

Also, scissors, box cutters, pliers and teeth.

The only people who wouldn't disconnect their speed limiter are exactly the people who would never have been speeding anyway.
Honestly it was just an example there are other means to limit speed and things like price reduction contracts for car purchasing could be written up if the buying party is willing not to modify the car. But in all honestly I think even this conversation is antiquated..... I'm ready to be driven home and play GT6 in the car on a vita.
 
Unlike everyone else who'll blame the cop, the mother or the kids in the OP'S video. I blame the law and the failure to put humans before a false economy.

How exactly is either "cop who fires on children in van" or "mom who speeds away from police with children in back" are affected by economic policy in any way whatsoever?

Both of them are still going to be idiots, regardless of economics.

Or people too dense to know anything about electronics.

I think some speed limiters can now work from the VSS which is feeds into the ECU, then the ECU limits power like it limits RPM and prevents red lineing a car and disconnecting it causes the speedometer to read 0 or could even force the car into limp mode.

Japanese speed limiters are mostly in the ECU if I remember correctly. What do people do? Buy an aftermarket ECU.

My point is that speed limiters really only stop people who want to be stopped or are apathetic enough not to bother. People who seriously want to speed will.

Take my dad and his motorbike. He could ride at the speed limit, but instead he spent hundreds on radar detecting gear so that he can go as fast as he wants and not get tickets (mostly). You can't legislate around that sort of mentality.
 
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How exactly is either "cop who fires on children in van" or "mom who speeds away from police with children in back" are affected by economic policy in any way whatsoever?

Both of them are still going to be idiots, regardless of economics.

Why would the mother not want to get fined or taken to jail? Could it be that she has a family to raise and pay for with fake money that owns her by forcing her to work and if she gets a ticket it may spell the end. Who knows but people act bizarre when put into a situation that endangers them or their routine.

For the cop you should look into the "prison experiment," People aren't JUST idiots when it comes to giving one human jurisdiction over others. http://www.prisonexp.org/
 
Why would the mother not want to get fined or taken to jail? Could it be that she has a family to raise and pay for with fake money that owns her by forcing her to work and if she gets a ticket it may spell the end. Who knows but people act bizarre when put into a situation that endangers them or their routine.

And so under some different economic policy you claim that she wouldn't run away from a police officer?

Maybe, but you really have no way of knowing.

For the cop you should look into the "prison experiment," People aren't JUST idiots when it comes to giving one human jurisdiction over others. http://www.prisonexp.org/

Oh, so Stanford was an economic experiment was it? I must have been confused then.
 
And so under some different economic policy you claim that she wouldn't run away from a police officer?

Maybe, but you really have no way of knowing.



Oh, so Stanford was an economic experiment was it? I must have been confused then.
Mate, you have to remember that we ARE products of our surrounding. This has been proven many times over in studies. And if you change the surrounding you change the persons actions. Surroundings being all the facets of what I've been talking about, so yes, economy and psychology all in the current paradigm will cause behavior like we see in the video.

@Imari let me ask you something in complete honesty. Where does the abhorrent behavior originate from, in your view?
 
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Mate, you have to remember that we ARE products of our surrounding. This has been proven many times over in studies. And if you change the surrounding you change the persons actions. Surroundings being all the facets of what I've been talking about, so yes, economy and psychology all in the current paradigm will cause behavior like we see in the video.

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Mate, you have to remember that we ARE products of our surrounding. This has been proven many times over in studies. And if you change the surrounding you change the persons actions. Surroundings being all the facets of what I've been talking about, so yes, economy and psychology all in the current paradigm will cause behavior like we see in the video.

@Imari let me ask you something in complete honesty. Where does the abhorrent behavior originate from, in your view?

Abhorrent behaviour in this case being what exactly? Shooting a van full of children?
 
No I'm extremely serious. Even laws like school zones, there should not be a law, there should be a mandatory speed limiter. What point of the law if even one child died from one speeder? If there was a speed restricted engine on that minivan none of that video would've ever happened. Same goes for many of our laws.
There was a case not too long ago where a actual sheriff deputy raped a woman after pulling her over. The problem with having a speed limiter is that someone somewhere would have the switch to turn the car off if it is committing a crime in their eyes, no matter how minor.

The potential civil liberties violations would start from treating ordinary citizens as criminals for [starters] not pulling to a complete stop behind a stop sign, or doing a California stop (rolling stop) to running red lights. Crime is crime, I get that, but criminals often times have rights too in America, but having someone at the kill switch of your car for committing a ticketable offense is just plain wrong.
 
The solutions are not really that difficult, also you site money as the biggest factor which is interesting because we have a fiat currency system that allows for unlimited allocation. It's why it's called FIAT currency, you can make as much as you want due to the fact that it's an artificial scarcity and not a natural scarcity. It's absurdly naive to think we don't have to money to do anything that I posted previously, look at the laughable bank bail out. We needed trillions and bam! Overnight we had trillions, plus if there were to be a big sweeping change to the driver systems in vehicles that was GOV mandated, it unlike the bail out, would boost the economy, make jobs and and strengthen growth. But honestly I find the current system paradigm outdated. And the view point you follow is a facet of the system you were raised in and I hear it from many people that have never entertain truly alternative solutions. Not the fake "Prius solutions."

Unlike everyone else who'll blame the cop, the mother or the kids in the OP'S video. I blame the law and the failure to put humans before a false economy.

I believe it's naive to think that what we have currently is healthy and will last us forever. I chose to think differently and not disregard moral, philosophical and human concerns at the cost of "money." For you'rs is an argument I will never understand. "We can't afford it!" Why? We make the money... out of thin air I might add.

PS, I really enjoy this type of conversation, this is truly valuable in terms of discussing the human value. But I must add that if at this point you are not following my train of thought and think I sound like socialist, communist, Marxist, or something along those lines (hippie) please hold off on your rebuttal until you've completed the book. Other wise.... continue on.

I just think you lack of a fundamental understanding of how resources work, as yes, money is the issue but printing money to purchase physical resources has repercussions. @Danoff would have a field day with your train of reasoning. Generating unlimited money to construct your desired infrastructure would make the currency meaningless due to inflation, and thus nothing would happen in the end, except perhaps a repeat of Germany in the 1930's. Though, from what I can tell, you don't agree with the fiat currency system, but seem to think abusing it to generate infrastructure that very well could border on privacy and civil liberty infringement is acceptable...

Now thinking I don't entertain alternatives is another assumption you've made.

Not entirely sure where you are going with the humans before false economy - some people are just plain stupid and others are just plain cruel. Yes, environmental factors have something to do with it, but there are just certain developmental aspects that are genetic, resulting is varying intelligence and empathy. But currently it just seems you are using this notion we are all products of the current paradigm and, from what I can tell, suggesting we (the posters questioning you) are incapable of thinking outside of our current system. Yet for some reason, you can despite also being raised in the same paradigm, or are you claiming to be beyond that and special?

And now I see you've jumped from limiting speeds to AI cars, as people have pointed out speed is far less the issue than driving skill. Which is, in my opinion, a bit amusing coming from a forum for a video game about driving :rolleyes:
 
I just think you lack of a fundamental understanding of how resources work, as yes, money is the issue but printing money to purchase physical resources has repercussions. @Danoff would have a field day with your train of reasoning. Generating unlimited money to construct your desired infrastructure would make the currency meaningless due to inflation, and thus nothing would happen in the end, except perhaps a repeat of Germany in the 1930's. Though, from what I can tell, you don't agree with the fiat currency system, but seem to think abusing it to generate infrastructure that very well could border on privacy and civil liberty infringement is acceptable...

No you brought up money being an issue inside the idea of my post, I simply expanded upon the fact that the issue isn't real. And simply stated that if we wanted to, "technically" we could print however much we wanted to. I love the abusing money, I'm not talking of abusing it. What I was getting at is that I don't agree with money and we can get rid of it all together! So yes to your question later down about people not understanding my points is partially true.

Now thinking I don't entertain alternatives is another assumption you've made.
I made no such assumption my friend, I don't pretend to know you.
".....I hear it from many people that have never entertain truly alternative solutions."


Not entirely sure where you are going with the humans before false economy - some people are just plain stupid and others are just plain cruel. Yes, environmental factors have something to do with it, but there are just certain developmental aspects that are genetic,

Please tell me you source of information! I have it on good knowledge and can link you to the study that finds most abhorrent behavior is in fact what is called epi-genitic. Meaning environmental structures will turn on and off the genetic traits responsible for behavioral reaction. Making it the fault of the persons surroundings, more than anything, that will dictate action. Now please note we live in the real world so not every person in a bad environment will behave as such, there are exceptions to the rules. And as soon as a person is put into a different environment the epi-genetic reactions can take effect to ellicet different results. So then the focus must be on the human interaction and surroundings, this isn't a perfect world but I try to make it better than it is.

resulting is varying intelligence and empathy. But currently it just seems you are using this notion we are all products of the current paradigm and, from what I can tell, suggesting we Again this is a resounding no, I said that I hear a similar argument from may other people (the posters questioning you) are incapable of thinking outside of our current system. Yet for some reason, you can despite also being raised in the same paradigm, or are you claiming to be beyond that and special?

Nope I never said I was raised in the current paradigm, nor did I say I was special. I've simply done years and years or research reading case studies and published papers to come to the conclusions / ideas I have. More than what I can say about most of my counterparts who just go off the ideas they were given by their parents.

And now I see you've jumped from limiting speeds to AI cars, as people have pointed out speed is far less the issue than driving skill. Which is, in my opinion, a bit amusing coming from a forum for a video game about driving :rolleyes:

lol it was just an example of how laws are self admitting failures in the system. That's all, I'm not jumping around, my use of the analogy was in canon to the rest of the post. If lawmakers IE the police who shot at the woman and kids TRULY cared about the LAW they were enforcing they would get rid of the law and put something in it's place so that the crime would not be available.
EDIT: please read through the quote first.

So again I ask you and the other guy, what is the cause for the behavior we saw in the video? And if you'd like to split my arguments up please do so with source material if you can. I love talking and discussing events but to tear into my statements with no backing is terminally frustrating. To be clear I'm not saying you DON'T know what you are talking about I'm only ASKING for material to prove your point. I'm not insinuating anything and if you infer otherwise it's not from what I've typed.

LOL there's too many people commenting to keep up with everything
 
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