Transmission made simple
- Thread starter jblackrevo9
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- 156
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Look at the graph
Clearly it shows holding on to first until tq drops to 210 is ideal as 2nd doesn't start making more tq on the upside than 1st makes on it's down side of the tq curve.
@killerjimbag, no coffee this morning? "Terrible math" I don't know? I wrote the formulaand it works
don't get all upset when math is not subject to opinion
oh FYI Console is not Banned, going on PSN to play GT or COD with a JBPS3 (not many games do this) they flag your console ID for obviously being a JBPS3 then Sony Bans the Console ID. Most games don't care play online it's all good. I stay away from all games just in case to keep access to PSN for DLC
If you like it or not I speak facts not Theories, sorry "Mixed Theories" based on half truths and half understandings of truths.
No need to be a negative Nancy. The facts are in front of you, ignore them and stay blind or try to understand and maybe get enlightened.
Use the same data you are using here to calculate when to change from 1st to 2nd but using the HP curve instead of torque. You will get EXACTLY the same shift point. Remember the HP curve does not need to be scaled for each individual gear like you have with the torque curves. Your maths is fine, it's just much much easier to use HP.
This is all the equivalent of two bald men fighting over a comb anyway without useable graphs from the game.
- 1,337
- Wisconsin
- DaBomm4
- DaBomm16
4th gear is still multiplied afterword remember.Incorrect, actual numbers one gear to the next need to be compared as you see in the graph, 210 on the down side to match up on the upswing at 1 to 1 it's not in the same figures as it is in the actual gear except for 4th
The rpm during the shifts is what's important, not the graph numbers.
SiNS3V3N
(Banned)
- 43
- United States
We look at the tq actual numbers because the tq curve mirrors the acceleration curve the hp curve does not.
The Point is to get the most acceleration when shifting
NOT
most average hp (hp, based on tq figures. )
Acceleration curve shows when and how much you accelerate, so when tuning acceleration the acceleration curve is the Key.
We are tuning shift points for acceleration are we not?
See where I'm going
The Point is to get the most acceleration when shifting
NOT
most average hp (hp, based on tq figures
. )Acceleration curve shows when and how much you accelerate, so when tuning acceleration the acceleration curve is the Key.
We are tuning shift points for acceleration are we not?
See where I'm going
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- 156
- United Kingdom
http://www.welltall.com/ymc/discovery/car/shiftpt.html
This article should clear things up for you J....SinS3V3N
This article should clear things up for you J....SinS3V3N
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
No actually Jack I can't. Again when someone points out a hole in your theory, the spots come back, hence the phrase a leopard never changes it's spots. Being that you actually posted you were an ex "Street Racer" says it all to me. Insert your favorite Joker quote.We look at the tq actual numbers because the tq curve mirrors the acceleration curve the hp curve does not.
The Point is to get the most acceleration when shifting
NOT
most average hp (hp, based on tq figures
Acceleration curve shows when and how much you accelerate, so when tuning acceleration the acceleration curve is the Key.
We are tuning shift points for acceleration are we not?
See where I'm going
SiNS3V3N
(Banned)
- 43
- United States
I think people are mixing tuning the gears, and catering shift points to get the most acceleration out of those gears with being the same thing.
Getting the highest average hp across the gears is not only easy, it's already done for us.
Tuning 6th gear to top speed or GTP norm (highest speed on longest straight) then equally spacing the gears up to top gear achieves the highest average power across the gears when multiplied (magnified).
Max Speed Slider achieves this/does it for us automatically. By equally spacing the gears, power magnification is equally divided. Top speed adjustments will vary amount after magnification in top gear, equally spaced gears divides it equally through the gears to arrive there.
Think about it for a second
If you set top gear(6th) to max speed of the longest straight.
& all gears are equally spaced
You equally divide the multiplied (magnified) power drop from 1st to 6th among the gears by having the gears spaced equally.
Highest average power through the gears is achieved by equally spacing the gears.
We use comparing power at exit to power at entry with those gears across the tq/acceleration curve to dial in shift points.
With equal spaced gears getting the highest average power across the gears, we adjust shifting to get best acceleration with the equally spaced gears because equal spaced gears DOES NOT mean it's ideal to shift at the same rpm in each gear for maximum acceleration.
2 things being mixed up together.
It simply comes down to this
Let max slider do it's job, then refine the gears to the track and dial in optimum shift points like I show.
Problem with GT is the useless graph makes dialling in optimum shift points to power at exit and entry guestimations without clear data.
Getting the highest average hp across the gears is not only easy, it's already done for us.
Tuning 6th gear to top speed or GTP norm (highest speed on longest straight) then equally spacing the gears up to top gear achieves the highest average power across the gears when multiplied (magnified).
Max Speed Slider achieves this/does it for us automatically. By equally spacing the gears, power magnification is equally divided. Top speed adjustments will vary amount after magnification in top gear, equally spaced gears divides it equally through the gears to arrive there.
Think about it for a second
If you set top gear(6th) to max speed of the longest straight.
& all gears are equally spaced
You equally divide the multiplied (magnified) power drop from 1st to 6th among the gears by having the gears spaced equally.
Highest average power through the gears is achieved by equally spacing the gears.
We use comparing power at exit to power at entry with those gears across the tq/acceleration curve to dial in shift points.
With equal spaced gears getting the highest average power across the gears, we adjust shifting to get best acceleration with the equally spaced gears because equal spaced gears DOES NOT mean it's ideal to shift at the same rpm in each gear for maximum acceleration.
2 things being mixed up together.
It simply comes down to this
Let max slider do it's job, then refine the gears to the track and dial in optimum shift points like I show.
Problem with GT is the useless graph makes dialling in optimum shift points to power at exit and entry guestimations without clear data.
- 156
- United Kingdom
And that's the bottom line. So how CAN we figure out when to shift for a given gear set? I tried telemetry and it was no help.
In the higher gears you can kinda work it out by watching the speedo and seeing if it's climbing faster, slower, or the same right after changing gear. There has to be a better way.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
Ok so let me understand what your saying here. I will quote your wall of blithering confusion for you.
"Think about it for a second"
If you set top gear(6th) to max speed of the longest straight.
& all gears are equally spaced
You equally divide the multiplied (magnified) power drop from 1st to 6th among the gears by having the gears spaced equally.
Highest average power through the gears is achieved by equally spacing the gears.
We use comparing power at exit to power at entry with those gears across the tq/acceleration curve to dial in shift points.
With equal spaced gears getting the highest average power across the gears, we adjust shifting to get best acceleration with the equally spaced gears because equal spaced gears DOES NOT mean it's ideal to shift at the same rpm in each gear for maximum acceleration.
2 things being mixed up together.
It simply comes down to this
Let max slider do it's job, then refine the gears to the track and dial in optimum shift points like I show.
"Problem with GT is the useless graph makes dialling in optimum shift points to power at exit and entry guestimations without clear data."
I will now quote your last line for you above.
Would you like to elaborate what gears and shift points I should use for any car that happens to use a "Draft"?
Your graph and theory is moot,to say the least,for track's like Daytona Road,Indy Road,etc. I won't even include Nascar in the equation.
So if I "let my max slider do the job and refine the gears" according to your graph's/theory,I will be getting passed like I'm standing still on the back stretch at Daytona in an LMP race.
Or I will quote you again,
"If you set top gear(6th) to max speed of the longest straight.
& all gears are equally spaced"
Which if I understand what your saying, I will get smoked in every corner as my final gear will take forever to get too without tuning the other 5 gears unequal according to your graph.
You are correct my friend and I will quote you again,"2 things being mixed up together".
"Think about it for a second"
If you set top gear(6th) to max speed of the longest straight.
& all gears are equally spaced
You equally divide the multiplied (magnified) power drop from 1st to 6th among the gears by having the gears spaced equally.
Highest average power through the gears is achieved by equally spacing the gears.
We use comparing power at exit to power at entry with those gears across the tq/acceleration curve to dial in shift points.
With equal spaced gears getting the highest average power across the gears, we adjust shifting to get best acceleration with the equally spaced gears because equal spaced gears DOES NOT mean it's ideal to shift at the same rpm in each gear for maximum acceleration.
2 things being mixed up together.
It simply comes down to this
Let max slider do it's job, then refine the gears to the track and dial in optimum shift points like I show.
"Problem with GT is the useless graph makes dialling in optimum shift points to power at exit and entry guestimations without clear data."
I will now quote your last line for you above.
Would you like to elaborate what gears and shift points I should use for any car that happens to use a "Draft"?
Your graph and theory is moot,to say the least,for track's like Daytona Road,Indy Road,etc. I won't even include Nascar in the equation.
So if I "let my max slider do the job and refine the gears" according to your graph's/theory,I will be getting passed like I'm standing still on the back stretch at Daytona in an LMP race.
Or I will quote you again,
"If you set top gear(6th) to max speed of the longest straight.
& all gears are equally spaced"
Which if I understand what your saying, I will get smoked in every corner as my final gear will take forever to get too without tuning the other 5 gears unequal according to your graph.
You are correct my friend and I will quote you again,"2 things being mixed up together".
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killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
Donpost, don't post something that makes sense to the rest of the world.👍
It's not his graph,so it makes no sense.
Remember,he was a Street Racer.
It's not his graph,so it makes no sense.
Remember,he was a Street Racer.
SiNS3V3N
(Banned)
- 43
- United States
I'm showing the factual correct way to adjust shift points for maximum acceleration.
It is not the only way, IMO it is the best method. While other methods may achieve the same goal it is incorrect & wrong to say the method I show is not correct, & it's pointless to say "yeah that works but you can also do X". All that semantics BS just serves to confuse instead of clarify. Not helpful to those trying to learn. Many of you are playing semantics because of a dislike for "Jack" but the FACT of the matter is I have not posted any theories on gearing, or tuning shift points. I have only posted FACTS. so stop with the BS games because your upset all the facts Im posting are not subject to or a matter of opinion, they are straightforward, mathematically proven facts.
It is not the only way, IMO it is the best method. While other methods may achieve the same goal it is incorrect & wrong to say the method I show is not correct, & it's pointless to say "yeah that works but you can also do X". All that semantics BS just serves to confuse instead of clarify. Not helpful to those trying to learn. Many of you are playing semantics because of a dislike for "Jack" but the FACT of the matter is I have not posted any theories on gearing, or tuning shift points. I have only posted FACTS.
so stop with the BS games because your upset all the facts Im posting are not subject to or a matter of opinion, they are straightforward, mathematically proven facts.
killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
It's not the only way, it's the best way?
Pretty humble. You don't race online, I will explain to you again. Your tranny will get it's arse handed to you in an online race. So it does not work.
Pretty humble. You don't race online, I will explain to you again. Your tranny will get it's arse handed to you in an online race. So it does not work.
SiNS3V3N
(Banned)
- 43
- United States
@killerjimbag
Your very critical of the facts and proven math Ive posted. It's clear what those facts and math demonstrate to anybody who is truly knowledgeable on the subject. It won't be clear to those with a second hand understanding, bouncing around reading on the subject still trying to formulate an understanding, let alone an opinion. You can learn much in theory, theory doesn't always translate practically. Theories work on fixed variables when in the practical world not all variables can be precisely predicted and most often many are not fixed or linear. Experience bridges the gap from theoretical to real world constantly changing variables, and with experience comes a deeper level of understanding.
Another moot point.
The Draft, just a variable. Account for that variable in your tuning as I said "refine gears to track" in this case it's track/race environment lol. if the RACE calls for adjusting/accounting for a draft or Nascar style race take that into consideration when you adjust the gears to the track/race environment Shouldn't be so hard to figure out lol.
My gears? Or your interpretation of what you think my gears would be IF you add in a new variable and on propose don't account for that new variable???
Forehead red yet???
Your very critical of the facts and proven math Ive posted. It's clear what those facts and math demonstrate to anybody who is truly knowledgeable on the subject. It won't be clear to those with a second hand understanding, bouncing around reading on the subject still trying to formulate an understanding, let alone an opinion. You can learn much in theory, theory doesn't always translate practically. Theories work on fixed variables when in the practical world not all variables can be precisely predicted and most often many are not fixed or linear. Experience bridges the gap from theoretical to real world constantly changing variables, and with experience comes a deeper level of understanding.
Another moot point.
The Draft, just a variable. Account for that variable in your tuning as I said "refine gears to track" in this case it's track/race environment lol. if the RACE calls for adjusting/accounting for a draft or Nascar style race take that into consideration when you adjust the gears to the track/race environment
Shouldn't be so hard to figure out lol.My gears? Or your interpretation of what you think my gears would be IF you add in a new variable and on propose don't account for that new variable???
Forehead red yet???
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killerjimbag
(Banned)
- 4,018
- The Great White North
- abetterplaya
I am not going to bump up your post count anymore. Yes Obi wan you are correct. The Easy tranny guide is now done.@killerjimbag
Your very critical of the facts and proven math Ive posted. It's clear what those facts and math demonstrate to anybody who is truly knowledgeable on the subject. It won't be clear to those with a second hand understanding, bouncing around reading on the subject still trying to formulate an understanding, let alone an opinion. You can learn much in theory, theory doesn't always translate practically. Theories work on fixed variables when in the practical world not all variables can be precisely predicted and most often many are not fixed or linear. Experience bridges the gap from theoretical to real world constantly changing variables, and with experience comes a deeper level of understanding.
Another moot point.
The Draft, just a variable. Account for that variable in your tuning as I said "refine gears to track" in this case it's track/race environment lol. if the RACE calls for adjusting/accounting for a draft or Nascar style race take that into consideration when you adjust the gears to the track/race environment
My gears? Or your interpretation of what you think my gears would be IF you add in a new variable and on propose don't account for that new variable???
Forehead red yet???
SiNS3V3N
(Banned)
- 43
- United States
Sorry I missed this post. Too much clutter from killerjimbag. Sincere apologies as its a clear olive branch extended to move on that I missed.
The method you describe is exactly what I do, and until we get better more clear data to work with IMO it's the best way in GT6.
Ears & Eyes
Eyes on speedo, ears on engine, you hear it struggle to maintain rate of increasing speed & thus rate of increasing rpm. When you hear the rate of rpm increase slowing, the rate of increasing speed will also. We do this while looking at the acceleration profile/curve as the rate of rpm will match the curve perfectly.
IRL without the data we do the same thing, eyes and ears. With the addition of the "Butt Dyno" being able to feel the rate of acceleration changes.
PD needs to make the graph much more clear, I would suggest they keep what is there but add the ability to click on the power graph to open it bigger with clear data, maybe clear lines and number all across the chart. That is what we need.
SiNS3V3N
(Banned)
- 43
- United States
What we can do with the data we have is use the peak hp figure to calculate tq at the peak hp rpm. This will produce a tq slope from peak to peak and this slope shows the "best acceleration" window. Peak to Peak.
When pulling back shifts from red line, we pull back as long as rate of acceleration is falling faster than the rate of acceleration increases in the following gear (smallest gap possible) we keep looking to make sure (or we can calculate) we don't pull back so far the next gear grabs below (or too far below) our "best acceleration" window. That window very small on a Honda with peak tq at 8300 and peak hp at 8800rpm, shifts grab below the window, we are trying to keep rpm from falling too far below. Requiring very high rpm to peak, thus needing to hold high rpm when shifting.
The window very wide on a LS1 that makes peak tq at 3500 and peak hp at 6500rpm. Shifts are easily kept inside the window, and the engine does not need to be making high rpm (compared to the K20) to make strong acceleration. A wide window has the advantage of versatility and wider range of use in lower rpm compared to a narrow window, most usefull in a very small very high rpm range needing to be kept in or as close to as possible.
A 500rpm K20 window vs a 3000rpm LS1 window makes a difference in how we can get the most out of our gears through proper timmed shifts.
Hondas or high rpm engines with small windows will often benefit from shifting well past the point speed increasing in the current gear slows down, as doing so grabs at a high rpm closer to the "best acceleration window" in the next gear.
The LS1 will want a shift as soon as acceleration rate starts falling as it will be fine in the meat of the "best acceleration widow" in the next gear when that rate starts to drop in the current gear.
I stress the TQ curve because That is the acceleration profile. That is what we want to focus on when adjusting shift points for most acceleration. Use acceleration to adjust shifts to acceleration..
Tq tells us so much when it comes to accelerating because torque is what's accelerating the car
When pulling back shifts from red line, we pull back as long as rate of acceleration is falling faster than the rate of acceleration increases in the following gear (smallest gap possible) we keep looking to make sure (or we can calculate) we don't pull back so far the next gear grabs below (or too far below) our "best acceleration" window. That window very small on a Honda with peak tq at 8300 and peak hp at 8800rpm, shifts grab below the window, we are trying to keep rpm from falling too far below. Requiring very high rpm to peak, thus needing to hold high rpm when shifting.
The window very wide on a LS1 that makes peak tq at 3500 and peak hp at 6500rpm. Shifts are easily kept inside the window, and the engine does not need to be making high rpm (compared to the K20) to make strong acceleration. A wide window has the advantage of versatility and wider range of use in lower rpm compared to a narrow window, most usefull in a very small very high rpm range needing to be kept in or as close to as possible.
A 500rpm K20 window vs a 3000rpm LS1 window makes a difference in how we can get the most out of our gears through proper timmed shifts.
Hondas or high rpm engines with small windows will often benefit from shifting well past the point speed increasing in the current gear slows down, as doing so grabs at a high rpm closer to the "best acceleration window" in the next gear.
The LS1 will want a shift as soon as acceleration rate starts falling as it will be fine in the meat of the "best acceleration widow" in the next gear when that rate starts to drop in the current gear.
I stress the TQ curve because That is the acceleration profile. That is what we want to focus on when adjusting shift points for most acceleration. Use acceleration to adjust shifts to acceleration..
Tq tells us so much when it comes to accelerating because torque is what's accelerating the car
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Yep. Transmissions made simple. 👍
- 864
- NorCal
- oppositelock27
Well, that escalated quickly.
I didn't read most of these walls of text, but I'm going to give my take on the subject in as few words as humanly possible.
Shift Points:
This graph shows the total multiplied torque at the wheels in each gear. If the line of one gear doesn't intersect the next gear, then the shift point is at redline. If it does intersect the next gear, the the shift point is at the RPM where the lines cross.
How do you calculate shift points in GT6? Basically, you can't, short of taking a snapshot of the torque curve, superimposing a graph over it in Photoshop, and manually translating that into a spreadsheet table. Have fun with that.
Gear Ratios:
Perfecting the Quick Tune gear formulas took me years. Any "easy" technique you can think of, I've probably already tried and discarded. One thing I know doesn't work is fixed ratio spreads, where each gear is exactly XX% of the previous gear. The lower gears are too close, the higher gears are too wide, and most of the time you'll play hell trying to fit them into the allowable range. My totally biased advice is to just use Quick Tune, and use the spread adjustment to tweak it to your liking.
I didn't read most of these walls of text, but I'm going to give my take on the subject in as few words as humanly possible.
Shift Points:
This graph shows the total multiplied torque at the wheels in each gear. If the line of one gear doesn't intersect the next gear, then the shift point is at redline. If it does intersect the next gear, the the shift point is at the RPM where the lines cross.
How do you calculate shift points in GT6? Basically, you can't, short of taking a snapshot of the torque curve, superimposing a graph over it in Photoshop, and manually translating that into a spreadsheet table. Have fun with that.
Gear Ratios:
Perfecting the Quick Tune gear formulas took me years. Any "easy" technique you can think of, I've probably already tried and discarded. One thing I know doesn't work is fixed ratio spreads, where each gear is exactly XX% of the previous gear. The lower gears are too close, the higher gears are too wide, and most of the time you'll play hell trying to fit them into the allowable range. My totally biased advice is to just use Quick Tune, and use the spread adjustment to tweak it to your liking.
@SiNS3V3N's concepts, theories and ideas are bang on guys. engine torque and more specifically torque at the pavement (which is engine tq multiplied by gearing [gear ratio x final drive]) is what accelerates you. he explains things in a very long winded way 
but it is a topic that is difficult to explain and I'm not sure I could do any better in fewer words.
@oppositelock above may have simplified it a bit and made it easier to understand.
if you are looking for a quick, simple, easy one size fits all guide to transmission tuning I say good luck! (or just use the sliders). there are many many variables involved.
i tune my transmission for a track in gt6. as an example, i do most of my racing on norsdchleiffe and that means tuning for speeds between 100km/hr to about 300 at 500pp. i optimize my gears to accelerate best in that speed range (it's actually narrower than that but whatever). so for example, i tune 2nd gear in such a way that I can use it to power out of the slowest corners (turn1, karussell) while many others are already in 3rd. this makes my 2nd gear a little taller than most would use and acceleration in that gear suffers a little below 100km/hr but, I am quicker out of those corners then the guys already in 3rd (remember torque x gearing?) so it is a good compromise because the only time i'm under 100 km/hr is when the green flag drops. i'll also fine tune my gears so that i am not forced to gear up or down mid corner. all this is track/car dependant.
but it is a topic that is difficult to explain and I'm not sure I could do any better in fewer words.@oppositelock above may have simplified it a bit and made it easier to understand.
if you are looking for a quick, simple, easy one size fits all guide to transmission tuning I say good luck! (or just use the sliders). there are many many variables involved.
i tune my transmission for a track in gt6. as an example, i do most of my racing on norsdchleiffe and that means tuning for speeds between 100km/hr to about 300 at 500pp. i optimize my gears to accelerate best in that speed range (it's actually narrower than that but whatever). so for example, i tune 2nd gear in such a way that I can use it to power out of the slowest corners (turn1, karussell) while many others are already in 3rd. this makes my 2nd gear a little taller than most would use and acceleration in that gear suffers a little below 100km/hr but, I am quicker out of those corners then the guys already in 3rd (remember torque x gearing?) so it is a good compromise because the only time i'm under 100 km/hr is when the green flag drops. i'll also fine tune my gears so that i am not forced to gear up or down mid corner. all this is track/car dependant.
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- 163
- San Diego
uuuhhhhhhhh
