Trueforce Feedback after update 1.49

[hawkeyez]

What I thought is it’s like you bought a stereo, at 3/4 volume it was more than loud enough and punchy. They release a software update and now you turn it to 100% to get it somewhat close to the original volume but it lack punch. You complain, they tell you what’s the problem, you can’t hear your music? Yes I can hear my music but it’s not the same.

We sold you a stereo, from what we can tell, it’s working as intended.

This is the problem with software updates, they can royally screw things up or improve.

It’s a physical sensation they’re mucking about with. Imagine walking for years, your balance is fine but somebody is able to mod you and you have to relearn. Or those bikes with reverse pedalling and steering. You CAN actually learn how to ride one, it just takes time. Fine. So you do. And then suddenly the bike is back to normal. Start all over again.

 

[ZevZoq]

Okay, at this point we need evidence (video, with game audio off so we can hear the wheel), because that’s definitely not what I’m seeing/feeling. Unless you mean it’s less than pre-patch, of course, which is different.

In every car/track combo I’ve tried so far, you can still feel the rumble strips. As soon as you turn the vibration to zero then you definitely can’t feel them any more.

I only have a G29 wheel and I can feel rumble strips just fine - assuming they are the ripple kind and not just smooth. And even if they are the smooth ones, I can feel the impact they have when I roll up on them in the wheel.) . Why would that even be connected to Trueforce at all? I mean rumble strips aren't a simple vibration effect...they are a result of the front wheels experiencing differing forces and thus causing the steering wheel to pull...

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I only have a G29 wheel and I can feel rumble strips just fine - assuming they are the ripple kind and not just smooth. And even if they are the smooth ones, I can feel the impact they have when I roll up on them in the wheel.) . Why would that even be connected to Trueforce at all?

Now, I know there is more going on behind the scenes with trueforce, and Rich can correct me, but most of the force you feel from the wheel feedback reacting to the kerbs is coming from the motor. The component of trueforce that generates the vibration is a speaker. That part is basically a buttkicker in the wheel. It generates the vibration you feel on the gators, but not the greater forces of wheel fighting back against your inputs when you roll a wheel up on a kerb.

Folks that had trueforce cranked up so high it stirs their drink for them when they rev the engine, I can see how the wheel would feel very different after the update. Prior the update I had TF Audio on the wheel set at 25, and vibration in the game set at 30. The only changes I've made since the update were increasing vibration in game from 30 to 50, and decreasing ffb strength in the game from 10 to 8. I've been super busy with the real race car, so I only have about an hour with the new update, and perhaps with more time I may make other changes. But nothing felt alarmingly off to me.

It is worth noting that different rigs will transmit frequencies differently. I recently moved to an extruded aluminium rig, and it conducts vibrations extremely well, so I canunderstand that folks with wood or pvc or other more insulating materials may desire higher trueforce settings than I utilise. But, if you consider the trueforce vibration setting as the gain on a buttkicker, it may make it easier to understand and configure. I suspect some of the concerns surrounding the changes in how the wheel feels are due more to the physics change within the game, rather than the trueforce vibration.

I could be wrong, but it also feels like the feedback resolution has increased. As in the wheel is either receiving updated information from the game more frequently, or receiving more/different information than it was prior to the update. I need some more time with it, but I feel the physics are a significant improvement and I have no complaints about the wheel.

 

[ZevZoq]

Now, I know there is more going on behind the scenes with trueforce, and Rich can correct me, but most of the force you feel from the wheel feedback reacting to the kerbs is coming from the motor. The component of trueforce that generates the vibration is a speaker. That part is basically a buttkicker in the wheel. It generates the vibration you feel on the gators, but not the greater forces of wheel fighting back against your inputs when you roll a wheel up on a kerb.

Folks that had trueforce cranked up so high it stirs their drink for them when they rev the engine, I can see how the wheel would feel very different after the update. Prior the update I had TF Audio on the wheel set at 25, and vibration in the game set at 30. The only changes I've made since the update were increasing vibration in game from 30 to 50, and decreasing ffb strength in the game from 10 to 8. I've been super busy with the real race car, so I only have about an hour with the new update, and perhaps with more time I may make other changes. But nothing felt alarmingly off to me.

It is worth noting that different rigs will transmit frequencies differently. I recently moved to an extruded aluminium rig, and it conducts vibrations extremely well, so I canunderstand that folks with wood or pvc or other more insulating materials may desire higher trueforce settings than I utilise. But, if you consider the trueforce vibration setting as the gain on a buttkicker, it may make it easier to understand and configure. I suspect some of the concerns surrounding the changes in how the wheel feels are due more to the physics change within the game, rather than the trueforce vibration.

I could be wrong, but it also feels like the feedback resolution has increased. As in the wheel is either receiving updated information from the game more frequently, or receiving more/different information than it was prior to the update. I need some more time with it, but I feel the physics are a significant improvement and I have no complaints about the wheel.

Yeah, I'm just responding to the comments about people feeling "nothing at all" from rumble strips and so forth. I mean the G923 for instance, as I understand it it's just a G29 with Trueforce which as you say is just a shaker. So in theory if you turn Trueforce right down to zero on a G923 you essentially have a G29 wheel. So if I can feel rumble strips fine on my G29 wheel, what would cause someone to not feel anything on a G923?

 

[Mudda Chod]

For those with "no FFB", this might be worth a try...

A friend had a similar (but intermittent) problem with his Fanatec wheel (pre update 1.49), then by chance the DS5 battery ran out and it disconnected. Instantly the wheel had full FFB.

Could it be possible that those experiencing "no FFB" also have a controller connected, and the controller is somehow glitchig the wheel. Try disconnecting all controllers, and see if the wheel FFB returns.

 

[LOGI_Rich]

Clarification required here: there is no extra speaker/transducer in the G923 or Pro Wheel. Everything produced by Trueforce Audio is the same motor (s in G923’s case) that produce the kinaesthetic force feedback.

@ZevZoq , believe me, there’s a whole different level of sensations that you’re not getting on rumble strips that you get with a G923 or Pro Wheel.

 

[hawkeyez]

I realized I wasn’t up to date on firmware. I did a firmware update and in G Hub there’s a reset to default button. I did that and then just finished racing for a couple hours. I can’t tell if it did anything or not. It feels like maybe it has.

Here’s my settings.
GT7 torque 10, sensitivity 2, vibration 150
Wheel strength 11, FFB filter 11, dampener 10 (I reset the wheel to default in g hub and that’s what it gave me)

One thing that annoys me and I don’t believe is correct is when taking a left hand sweeping corner. The wheel jerks to the right. I believe the the tires are losing grip or scrubbing so the wheel cuts torque and then I get full force again when the tire grabs, which makes it feel like a ghost is pulling my wheel to the right every half a second thru a left hand corner.

For fun, I reduced my wheel strength to 6.5. It’s better, but the wheel is too light that way. I think they need to reduce how much they cut FFB from the wheel when the tires slip during a corner. Why so exaggerated? If you reduce in game torque down from 10, you’re going to lose curb feel, as I wasn’t getting much curb feel before at 7 trying to get back to how my wheel felt before.

I’d actually like my wheel a little lighter than 10 torque in game, but you lose way too much. I can get used of having a wheel that heavy, but not with that annoying sweeping corner phantom wheel tugging sensation.

They need to narrow that gap, when the tires slip, reduce wheel strength or torque by 10% if it’s at 90% right now. It’s much too exaggerated at the moment. It also does it when brake too hard, wheel goes light and then bang full torque when they grip again.

Again, can reduce that with in game torque or wheel strength but you’re sacrificing more than you’d like.

1- Make vibration at 150 almost unbearable for trueforce so we have somewhere to go, more or less rather than wishing there was more with nowhere to go.

2- don’t completely drop all of the wheel strength/torque when the tires slip because when it comes back on it’s just too much of a difference. Something like that should be a lot more subtle.

3- when we reduce torque in game, everything else like curbs shouldn’t go with it. I don’t know if curbs are tied to in game torque not vibration but it sure feels like it is as I thought curbs were completely gone when I was running lower in game torque.

On another note, I think they’ve screwed up their suspension physics, back to coming across cars tires hitting fenders, wheel goes choppy making corners in cars I know never had that issue. Stock vehicles, not tuned ones. This is a different issue than I addressed above with the sweeping corners. I don’t care if they agree or not, but I think they need to fix these issues asap or roll it back, test more on there end and then re-release it.

Oh yeah, sensitivity you can kind of get away with at 2 but really it needs to be at 1. Again, not sure why we have so many settings that need maxing out one way or the other to get the best feel. There’s literally nowhere to go to adjust to taste.

*Adding a bit more. I’m beginning to hone it in, noticed now comfort tires to racing tires are even more exaggerated in FFB strength that before. Also found out the curbs are the torque but the finer curb detail is trueforce.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Clarification required here: there is no extra speaker/transducer in the G923 or Pro Wheel. Everything produced by Trueforce Audio is the same motors (s in G923’s case) that produce the kinaesthetic force feedback.

@ZevZoq , believe me, there’s a whole different level of sensations that you’re not getting on rumble strips that you get with a G923 or Pro Wheel.

Thank you for the correction. I suppose I was corrupted by the TF Audio and Trueforce Audio Effects settings names on the wheel. The effects felt similar to my buttkickers such that I disconnected them, because I didn't want them interfering with what I was feeling through the rig from the Pro wheel.

 

[Rombbb]

Clarification required here: there is no extra speaker/transducer in the G923 or Pro Wheel. Everything produced by Trueforce Audio is the same motors (s in G923’s case) that produce the kinaesthetic force feedback.

@ZevZoq , believe me, there’s a whole different level of sensations that you’re not getting on rumble strips that you get with a G923 or Pro Wheel.

Hi Rich,

Y'day pretty sure rumble strips did nothing but besides the ZR1 on Goodwood mention in y'day's post update, later on Dragon Trail and Nurb F1 with E46 M3 worked as well, so it could be that 150 Vibr setting didn't apply or something and only after PS5 / wheel restart did it work, not sure.
Did not re-check car-track combo's mentioned in previous post, will do this afternoon to see whether it's car-track related (Vette ZR1 Trial Mountain, Nissan GTR race car on Ring and 911 Turbo on Tsukuba).

Anyhow so far it seems to work so apologies for needless confusion

 

[Excession]

I agree, it’s not the same immersive feeling anymore….


Thanks @LOGI_Rich for the reply. If they can just get the trueforce output back to where it was before that would be great! I’m sure most of the users here will agree…

Totally yes! Even on max, it's half of the experience it was before the update. I have always kept the GT7 settings on max and overridden them with the wheel settings after start up. It's much easier to play with the settings on the wheel it is in game. I set TF to 69 before and it felt incredibly realistic, now even on 100 can barely feel it or hear it. Please fix this, why not leave it to the user and give us a useful range to work with, rather than just 0 to 20% of the wheel's actual capability, IT MAKES NO SENSE!

Gents, there’s still a substantial gap between what you have now and the other options, believe me.

At this reduced level of feedback, in my opinion it's not worth the cost, for me this change has made the game amongst unplayable. It makes a mockery of the 0-150 vibration setting range when there's virtually zero output at 100 or less. It's almost as if PD want to destroy the reputation of the G Pro for some reason...

 

[seeayesix]

I have an ancient G25 and a drivehub. Game feels very different, but I think I can just adapt and get used to it really.

 

[Pzynen]

At this reduced level of feedback, in my opinion it's not worth the cost, for me this change has made the game amongst unplayable. It makes a mockery of the 0-150 vibration setting range when there's virtually zero output at 100 or less. It's almost as if PD want to destroy the reputation of the G Pro for some reason...

I completely agree, after the update it’s just not the same anymore. You might as well get a basic wheel and save you the extra 1000$….

Well it was fun while it lasted…

 

[hawkeyez]

Logged in about 20 hours now with the new update. It’s the new suspension/tire physics that are messing with wheel feel.

1- Brake hard, wheel light then snaps back hard. Unrealistic.

2- Sweeping corner, wheel tugs intervalliclly in opposite direction all the way around corner. Unrealistic.

3- Kerbs or dips in the road sometimes hammer back at you violently. Unrealistic. I’m thinking it’s a tire rubbing the fender or something.

Most is their new physics that are flawed.

The biggest thing with the wheel is trueforce needing to be at 150 (max) to be close to where 50 used to be. At 150 it doesn’t really feel all that extreme so I can’t tell what trueforce is actually doing because I can’t take it too far and find out.

As well, the oscillation on something like Gr3 vette is annoyingly frustrating. No amount of wheel changes or in game changes gets rid of it. Besides reduce torque to almost nothing. Sensitivity at 1 is the set point, leave it there or most cars will oscillate. Again I was at 10 before without oscillation. Why can’t I have it at 5 and go either way? God I hope they fix this stuff.

 

[Reeneman]

Is there a firmware update available for the Logitech G923?
Any new recommended settings?

Currently I’m trying it with
10-10
Vibration: 90

 

[sonnyboychris]

I'd love to know how Assetto Corsa (and it's variants), iRacing and others games handle multiple peripherals. Do those games struggle to support more than one wheel at a time? What's unique about GT's FFB system that prevents them from not adversely impacting other wheels while improving others?

For months my DD Pro has felt like complete trash relative to a year or two ago. I envied the Logitech users and now the tables have turned. GTPlanet put out a YT video where one of the contributors stated that he felt uneasy (in retrospect) in his recommendation of the DD Extreme because it's not yet fully supported...

Whatever the case is, it'd be nice if these questions were posed to PD/Kaz at some point. Even though my FFB is improved today, it could all be gone in a week or a years time. That's one of the worst parts about being a GT7 player with a wheel at this point.

 

[hawkeyez]

I'd love to know how Assetto Corsa (and it's variants), iRacing and others games handle multiple peripherals. Do those games struggle to support more than one wheel at a time? What's unique about GT's FFB system that prevents them from not adversely impacting other wheels while improving others?

For months my DD Pro has felt like complete trash relative to a year or two ago. I envied the Logitech users and now the tables have turned. GTPlanet put out a YT video where one of the contributors stated that he felt uneasy (in retrospect) in his recommendation of the DD Extreme because it's not yet fully supported...

Whatever the case is, it'd be nice if these questions were posed to PD/Kaz at some point. Even though my FFB is improved today, it could all be gone in a week or a years time. That's one of the worst parts about being a GT7 player with a wheel at this point.

That’s one of the worst parts about gaming these days. One update and it can drastically change things. The difference with GT7 with a wheel over say call of duty is we rely on very subtle cues in the force feedback, it becomes muscle memory. When they nerf a gun in call of duty I could care less. If they slowed characters down by 5% I probably wouldn’t even notice.

I get that tunes can be affected, it’s annoying but you can always tune again and they don’t perform that far off, I don’t care if I’m faster or slower to be honest. I do care about how my wheel feels compared to how it felt. It’s almost as if we took one step forward and two steps back and one of those steps back was more sideways than anything.

 

[LOGI_Rich]

Is there a firmware update available for the Logitech G923?
Any new recommended settings?

Currently I’m trying it with
10-10
Vibration: 90

No firmware update needed for the G923. I found that 10-10 was a little unnatural feeling; 10-5 felt better to me but ultimately it’s what feels best for you that counts.

 

[BubbaZanetti]

I completely agree, after the update it’s just not the same anymore. You might as well get a basic wheel and save you the extra 1000$….

Well it was fun while it lasted…

I completely agree, I would not have gotten the Logitech Pro wheel if this is the experience. The TF ability to feel curbs, tire scrub, and provide feedback without the wheel jerking was a huge driver to purchasing after testing other's wheels. Now I'd return it if I had the option and buy a different wheel, a laptop, and Simhub with buttkickers so I could enjoy all the benefits of wheel options and still have "TF" by feeling the car outside of the wheel kicking back and forth. It is ridiculous that the suggested settings are to max the wheel out on all torque settings and vibration.

 

[TheOneDonJuan]

Had to tune down the FFB to 9.0 for Bathurst. Been messing with settings since the release and jfc man I can't even with what they did this update. Cars feel like they're on ice or floating through the vacuum of space.

 

[gt3guy]

It would be nice to hear if any Logitech pro users are happy, I guess I assumed some were. Don't get me wrong, I am not happy at all and would prefer reverting it completely myself.

I completely agree, after the update it’s just not the same anymore. You might as well get a basic wheel and save you the extra 1000$….

Well it was fun while it lasted…

I feel the same way.

 

[t351chunder]

I completely agree, I would not have gotten the Logitech Pro wheel if this is the experience. The TF ability to feel curbs, tire scrub, and provide feedback without the wheel jerking was a huge driver to purchasing after testing other's wheels. Now I'd return it if I had the option and buy a different wheel, a laptop, and Simhub with buttkickers so I could enjoy all the benefits of wheel options and still have "TF" by feeling the car outside of the wheel kicking back and forth. It is ridiculous that the suggested settings are to max the wheel out on all torque settings and vibration.

I'm giving it a month, then it's gone. For my own sanity, I'm not "putting up with it".

 

[LOGI_Rich]

The TF ability to feel curbs, tire scrub, and provide feedback without the wheel jerking was a huge driver to purchasing after testing other's wheels.

As I’ve explained, those sensations are not tied to the max torque setting, so it’s totally possible to still have them without an oscillating wheel by leaving the vibration setting high and reducing the max torque setting.

It is ridiculous that the suggested settings are to max the wheel out on all torque settings and vibration.

You’ll note that for Gr.1/Gr.2 cars we’re suggesting lowering the max torque to 5.

You need only go and read the Fanatec owners threads to see people having the same issues with oscillations and without any of the benefit of Trueforce Audio. We’ve reported your feelings to Polyphony and you can also lend your voice by letting them know on their twitter account.

 

[BubbaZanetti]

As I’ve explained, those sensations are not tied to the max torque setting, so it’s totally possible to still have them without an oscillating wheel by leaving the vibration setting high and reducing the max torque setting.


You’ll note that for Gr.1/Gr.2 cars we’re suggesting lowering the max torque to 5.

You need only go and read the Fanatec owners threads to see people having the same issues with oscillations and without any of the benefit of Trueforce Audio. We’ve reported your feelings to Polyphony and you can also lend your voice by letting them know on their twitter account.

Thanks and will do.

I'm not having oscillation issues at the recommended settings, I have issue with trading of TFA for max torque. The original configuration was more balanced in receiving feedback from the FFB and the TFA for a higher perceived "Ultimate Feedback - UF" (IMO) and at the lower torque settings which were less fatiguing and as mentioned felt more balanced. Steering feel / weight transfer, traction loss / tire scrub, rumble strips, curbing, were able to be felt with high enough fidelity without having the maxed torque settings by utilizing higher TFA. The higher torque settings which let you feel additional traction condition fidelity result in a very "whip happy" wheel when the car is loaded into a corner and also have irregular surface tramlining.

Thanks for the help and input you provide to the board, I'm frustrated that a great setup went mediocre for me on Thursday after 9 months of really enjoying this wheel. I was looking forward to the new physics as I felt a little more dancing and corner feel would make GT7 more realistic, but the numbness from not having the old TFA levels takes away quite a bit of the enjoyment.

In my original configuration I had an FIA certified seat in my Elite chassis and TF 35 was enough to provide full vibration to the entire seat, when I put it back in the car for this season, I switched to a more comfortable NRG Prisma seat and the TFA need to go up to 100 for the same feel, with this update the feel is gone except in the hands.

 

[Reeneman]

Ok was now able to test the new update with my Logitech G923… what should I say, I had a lot!! of fun.

Changed the settings to
10-6
Vibration: 90
Controller sensitivity: 6

Feels pretty good for me. The Force Feedback is a bit weaker than before but it’s not a dealbreaker for me. TruForce effects when you drive over curbs are also still there.
Pretty satisfied so far. I’m sure they will fix some issues with the new physics with the next update and might improve the wheel support further but I really won’t complain here.

 

[Childe Roland]

Ok was now able to test the new update with my Logitech G923… what should I say, I had a lot!! of fun.

Changed the settings to
10-6
Vibration: 90
Controller sensitivity: 6

Feels pretty good for me. The Force Feedback is a bit weaker than before but it’s not a dealbreaker for me. TruForce effects when you drive over curbs are also still there.
Pretty satisfied so far. I’m sure they will fix some issues with the new physics with the next update and might improve the wheel support further but I really won’t complain here.

I have almost the same config on my G923 (10-5) and it is a bit lighter than before but I can deal with that.

 

[Reeneman]

I have almost the same config on my G923 (10-5) and it is a bit lighter than before but I can deal with that.

What value are you using for the controller sensitivity?
Thinking about to try out 10-5, vibration up to 100.

 

[sonnyboychris]

We’ve reported your feelings to Polyphony

Thank god someone is.

 

[Childe Roland]

What value are you using for the controller sensitivity?
Thinking about to try out 10-5, vibration up to 100.

I have it on 5 but I reckon that controller sensitivity has no effect on the wheel.
Vibration on 100 felt too much for me, my sweet spot is at 90 right now.

 

[hawkeyez]

Something I noticed today. Have a Charged tuned around 600pp SS. I have three wheel profile, one at 11nm strength, one at 9nm and another at 7nm.

Profile 1, way too heavy. Profile 2, still too heavy. Profile 3, feels right.

Finish my race, go do a Ferrari challenge in the P4 330 with RH. Profile 3, way too light. Profile 2, still too light. Profile 1, feels right. Except, profile 1 is all good until you touch a curb or AI taps you, extreme feedback strength. Wow, almost broke my wrists. I go to Profile 2 mid race, doesn’t feel great but whatever, again, hop a curb here and there or AI bumps ya, still extreme feedback, not quiet wrist breaking but uncomfortable. Profile 3, just too light may as well not have the wheel on.

Best I can figure is they’ve got the force feedback dynamics too extreme, it’s good good BANG good good BAAAANNNGG.

I think it’s all related to my other posts but what got me is a car with SS feels soooo much heavier than a race car with RH.

 

[Excession]

Something I noticed today. Have a Charged tuned around 600pp SS. I have three wheel profile, one at 11nm strength, one at 9nm and another at 7nm.

Profile 1, way too heavy. Profile 2, still too heavy. Profile 3, feels right.

Finish my race, go do a Ferrari challenge in the P4 330 with RH. Profile 3, way too light. Profile 2, still too light. Profile 1, feels right. Except, profile 1 is all good until you touch a curb or AI taps you, extreme feedback strength. Wow, almost broke my wrists. I go to Profile 2 mid race, doesn’t feel great but whatever, again, hop a curb here and there or AI bumps ya, still extreme feedback, not quiet wrist breaking but uncomfortable. Profile 3, just too light may as well not have the wheel on.

Best I can figure is they’ve got the force feedback dynamics too extreme, it’s good good BANG good good BAAAANNNGG.

I think it’s all related to my other posts but what got me is a car with SS feels soooo much heavier than a race car with RH.

I've not experienced these kind of transient FFB events as I've only played it for 20 minutes since the update trying to figure out why the amazing TFA effects had disappeared, but honestly this sounds pretty dangerous to me. The combination of too much force and transient peaks can do serious tendon damage in your wrists, especially if you're getting on a bit. This kind of injury takes 6 months to repair (at the very least) and is why I had to spend the last 9 months off the game.

Before this update the FFB strength was realistic, i.e. fairly light on slow cars ranging up to fairly heavy on race cars, one setting worked for everything and I never once needed to change the FFB setting, it just worked!

From what I've heard on here though you now need different FFB settings for different cars just to make it playable and, unless it's turned down to virtually useless levels, even a low to moderate FFB setting could cause a serious wrist injury. I have only just been able to play again after 9 months off, there's no way I'm risking another injury so this game is dead to me unless the FFB/TFA goes back to how it was.