Tuners Guide for the Non-Tuner
- Thread starter Motor City Hami
- 65 comments
- 30,561 views
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Some people believe that the spring rates in GT5 are backwards to the real world of higher number = stiffer. I 100% disagree with them. I think they have other things in their tune that is making it seem like spring rates are backwards (like too low a ride height, sway bars set wrong or LSD settings not even close).
- 757
- Paris
- BlueShift
On flat rides to simplify the problem, engine is front => so weigth is front => so you need strong front SR, simple as that.
Now if the true weigth distribution is 60% front and 40% rear, if you have SR distributed like 70%/30% you'll asking more oversteer from your car. The opposite, 55%/45% (or even 40%/60%), you'll induce more understeer.
FF naturally understeers. so and put a lot of SR in front (which is a practice i disagree, i try to compensate that by RH : for curving it's better speed and stability)
This is not true. For SR.
If the ride is low, you need high SR because if the kg of your drive train > the kg of your springs then the ride hit the "min spring" and compression is made 100% of the time.
Yes but it's a tuning secret
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- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Math laws for setting spring rates in a video game? Sounds like an aweful lot of over complication for a computer program that is set up on an A to B relationship and a bunch of if, then statements.
Simplify and go fast. I think that's going to be the moto of my garage.
Simplify and go fast. I think that's going to be the moto of my garage.
Rotary Junkie
Premium
- 9,810
- Canton, MI
- RJs_RX-7
A higher number is (as others have already said) stiffer, but I do things a bit differently with FWD cars as I've gotten good results doing so. If you look closer, note that while the front springs are quite stiff, the front anti-roll is very soft, and the rear anti-roll is very stiff. It means you get a car that turns in very well and keeps weight over the nose while accelerating out of corners, albeit at a slight cost to straight-line traction. You'll never get a high powered FWD to not wheelspin off corners at least some of the time; the faster way is to make the wheelspin work for you instead of against you.
While it's true that a lighter car won't need (or want) as stiff of springs as something heavier, more grip (not more power) requires stiffer springs to keep down body roll. 16 kg/mm is ridiculously stiff for a road car but if anything a bit soft for a full-on race car and the grip resulting from high downforce and full slicks.
- 43
- DareDevyl
I see now, thanks for pointing that out. The GT5 info states "When it comes time for the fine-tuning, it's often better to soften the anti-roll bars to correct understeer and oversteer rather than stiffen." I assumed that anti-roll was for fine tuning after you had setup your Spring Rate according to the type (FF, FR, etc.) and weight of the car. Is this a technique you use on lighter, lower HP FWD cars only? Very clever to use anti-roll this way - I had never considered that. I guess every beginning tuner wants to know a good place to start - previously I had thought that Spring Rate made sense and now that has kind of gotten tossed on its head.
I can follow your train of thought about more grip needing stiffer springs to prevent body roll. Makes complete sense. But the game doesn't seem to scale the available Spring Rate range up or down according to the grip of your tire selection or aero kit setup? It seems to have set ranges based on the type of the car - road cars have a lower max, racing cars have a higher max. I am guessing this is done to make the game a more realistic simulation. So I am thinking that part of tuning these cars is to show some restraint when buying extras so the car isn't made to perform too far outside its intended parameters?
Thanks for the reply and info everyone - much appreciated.
-DD
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Happy to help. I am going to start a garage Motor City Tunes and post my full tunes. I'm going to note in a comments section where I've done just a 10 minute tune and where I have spent time with a car.
- 3,984
- Frankfurt am Main
- GTP_mcfizzle
- LotsaMcfizzle
Thank you for this post.
This is the first time I have actually understood LSD, although I have to admit I don't wander into the tuning forum to often and rarely ever mess with the settings of my cars. I usually just put on better tires or add something to the car to help with handling.
I followed your guide and I can actually drive my CTR Yellow Bird on Sport Hard tires now. It would always oversteer to the point of spinning when I was off the throttle and after braking. I increased decel by 5 and magically the car does what I tell it to now.
Thanks again OP, great thread.
This is the first time I have actually understood LSD, although I have to admit I don't wander into the tuning forum to often and rarely ever mess with the settings of my cars. I usually just put on better tires or add something to the car to help with handling.
I followed your guide and I can actually drive my CTR Yellow Bird on Sport Hard tires now. It would always oversteer to the point of spinning when I was off the throttle and after braking. I increased decel by 5 and magically the car does what I tell it to now.
Thanks again OP, great thread.
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Another LSD topic I'd love to hear some input on is how brake balance figures in. I have found that equally balanced and also rear-heavy settings can really create oversteer, and that front-heavy brake balance goes the other way. How much does brake balance figure into your tunes, and at what point do you start working it into the equation?
- 1,175
^ It depends how you drive I suppose. Brake balance can only help to turn the car when the brakes are being used, obviously. If you brake very hard all the way into apexes then I guess you may want the brakes to help create oversteer. But if you prefer to brake in a straight line and fall into turns on a trailing throttle, then you need to use the torque of the engine for oversteer effect. Personally I back right into turns so I set up for a lot of oversteer on the brakes and engine too.
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
In GT4 i used brake balance in most of my tunes, just the way you mentioned it, heavier rear to get more rotation under braking so that I could trail brake. I could still do most of it with LSD so I used only slightly heavier rear.
In GT5 we now have an ABS setting. With my LSD tune and 1 or 2 AMS setting, a change to the brake balance hasn't been needed. Maybe I just haven't experimented enough with it, but the cars are handling well, so I haven't needed it. Some people may prefer to tune the brakes over tuning the LSD and achieving similar results?
I opened a garage, Motor City Tunes and tried to upload my spreadsheet, but failed last night. I will try again tonight. I am showing top to bottom all upgrades and settings and indicating how much time I have spent on each tune. People will probably be able to fine tune my tunes, but I am providing a different service, simple tunes for people who don't really care about that last 5%.
I almost always use two ticks more on the front of my brakes compared to the rear. I hate how a lot of tuners use really high rears to "get it to rotate" under braking so I always change brake balance to how I like it. That is not how you drive a car in real life and purposely locking up your rears just to turn the car is crazy. It might be faster in game though so I guess that's why a lot of game tuners do this, but I just can't drive like that.
Rotary Junkie
Premium
- 9,810
- Canton, MI
- RJs_RX-7
The thing is, when you're running ABS it is VERY rare to actually have "too much" rear brake bias. Too much front... Often. I find shortest stopping distances to be achieved with very strong rear bias settings and moderate to heavy front bias settings, though there are cases where turning down the rear bias helps stability. As for rotation... The only time the stronger rear bias settings actually cause/influence it is under partial braking, and again, often not causing a slide, just causing the nose to tuck in a bit.
A tune made for ABS off, however, will tend to be more front-heavy, not to mention using lower settings.
I think it's that, if I don't mess with something :
On front traction wheels
Initial Torque
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
understeer oversteer
Accel sensitivity
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
oversteer understeer
Decel sensitivity (engine brake's "strength", don't yell at me Rotary
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
oversteer understeer
On rear traction wheels
Initial Torque
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
understeer oversteer
Accel sensitivity
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
understeer oversteer
Decel sensitivity
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
oversteer understeer
We were arguing about how it locks. That's just a problem of perception I think.
This is exactly what I would like to have more input on from some other tuners. Blueshift has been very clear about how he perceives the LSD with this diagram and it makes it easy to go and test the theory out. So do others agree with what he has here? Can you post your own diagrams? I think this is a great model for testing LSD theories.
From my experience, braking distance seems to work exactly how it does in real life (i.e. threshold braking is better than letting ABS do its job), so tuning for ABS or non-ABS is irrelevant to me. Even if you're the type that slams the brakes and rely on ABS, too much rear bias will definitely cause a slide, that's just how cars work, the same as pulling the handbrake. You can simply test this by setting 1/10 on your brakes, head to a corner, turn in slowly, slam the brakes, and it will spin 100% of the time. Set it to 10/1 and it won't happen the same way.
Just for reference, I set most cars to 8 on the front and 6 on the rear. I just adjust the rear to set it so fronts lock up slightly before the rears. My brake pedal is never pressed fully down, only between halfway to 3/4 and I can definitely outbrake people who only rely on ABS. Brakes are there to stop you in the shortest possible time, leave the job of turning the car to the suspension.
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- 93
- At home
- danlimski
thanks for all the info ... quite beneficial.
i do still have a question in regards to toe. when looking at the diagram in suspension tuning, it seems to state that the (+) sign is negative toe and the (-) sign is positive toe. having said that, every other tuning blurb made by either novice or experienced tuners are stating the reverse. please clarify.
thanks, dan
i do still have a question in regards to toe. when looking at the diagram in suspension tuning, it seems to state that the (+) sign is negative toe and the (-) sign is positive toe. having said that, every other tuning blurb made by either novice or experienced tuners are stating the reverse. please clarify.
thanks, dan
- 3,359
- California
- PumpinNumbies
thanks for all the info ... quite beneficial.
i do still have a question in regards to toe. when looking at the diagram in suspension tuning, it seems to state that the (+) sign is negative toe and the (-) sign is positive toe. having said that, every other tuning blurb made by either novice or experienced tuners are stating the reverse. please clarify.
thanks, dan
We've all decided to agree that:
+ = toe in
and
- = Toe out
This is how the diagram is layed out in game.
True to life? We've stopped caring or arguing.
- 93
- At home
- danlimski
I think it's that, if I don't mess with something :
On front traction wheels
Initial Torque
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
understeer oversteer
Accel sensitivity
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
oversteer understeer
Decel sensitivity (engine brake's "strength", don't yell at me Rotary
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
oversteer understeer
On rear traction wheels
Initial Torque
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
understeer oversteer
Accel sensitivity
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
understeer oversteer
Decel sensitivity
0..5.........60..100
<------------------>
oversteer understeer
We were arguing about how it locks. That's just a problem of perception I think.
What about AWD cars?
- Jeramy
- 3,509
- Cumberland, BC
- GTP_BlacqueJack
A lot also depends on driving style; one tune doesn't suit all drivers.
No time for experimenting. I buy the LSD, but leave it alone with default settings.
I switch up suspension ratios depending whether front engined or rear engined car-I ask myself with each car-where is the weight going when braking and accelerating: hiher setting where the weight will be and the control needed for that weight.
Quickest way to set up for me. I also only stick to Premium cars for th e most part so less cars to tune!
No time for experimenting. I buy the LSD, but leave it alone with default settings.
I switch up suspension ratios depending whether front engined or rear engined car-I ask myself with each car-where is the weight going when braking and accelerating: hiher setting where the weight will be and the control needed for that weight.
Quickest way to set up for me. I also only stick to Premium cars for th e most part so less cars to tune!
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
I'm new to this whole tunning thing and reading these posts has help, but I have a couple questions about LSD. I use a logitech wheel when playing, so when I describe what I'm asking about it refers to this and not the ds controller. So first, when I enter a corner and I'm applying the brakes before the turn and the car is pulling to one side or the other and the wheel is turning to that side, from what I'm understanding it's the LSD deceleration that can correct this so the car and steering wheel don't do this? And when applying the gas out of the corner and the car begins to pull to the outside of the corner instead of hugging the inside when accelerating, this can be corrected with the LSD acceleration? Is this basically what the LSD does?
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