Turning off aids and switching to manual

[PirovacBoy]

- some cars its faster to shift early/late
- more control of the car meaning faster laps
- shortshift for tricky exits
- fuel saving
- engine braking

I agree on everything, but what is engine braking, and more important how does it work? Can you explain it.

 

[polizei]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but turn everything off except abs default, and go back and do all the license tests, mission, and circuit events. That will be in my opinion the best way to learn how to drive again, without the aids .

Good advice

 

[Shottah072]

I agree on everything, but what is engine braking, and more important how does it work? Can you explain it.

From Wiki:

The term "engine braking" refers to the braking effect that occurs in gasoline engines when the accelerator pedal is released. This results in the throttle valve that controls intake airflow closing and the air flow through the intake becoming greatly restricted (but not cut off completely). This causes a high manifold vacuum which the cylinders have to work against—sapping energy and producing the majority of the engine braking force.

While some of the braking force is produced due to friction in the drive train, this is negligible compared to the effect from the manifold vacuum caused by the air-flow restriction.

As soon as the accelerator is released enough to slow the engine, engine braking comes into effect as long as the wheels remain connected via the transmission to the engine. A slipping or disengaged clutch, or a torque converter, would disengage the wheels or absorb braking energy. The braking force varies depending on the engine, and the gear the transmission is in. The lower the gear, the higher the braking effect due to higher rpm and the torque transferred through the transmission (higher torque is delivered from the engine in lower gears).

This is why you see some drivers shift down the gears very rapidly. Because doing so gives more braking force from the engine wich allows to brake slightly later. The downside is that it can unsettle the car a bit under braking and in real life it could damage the engine if you over do it, thats why some cars run downshift protection.

 

[PirovacBoy]

From Wiki:



This is why you see some drivers shift down the gears very rapidly. Because doing so gives more braking force from the engine wich allows to brake slightly later. The downside is that it can unsettle the car a bit under braking and in real life it could damage the engine if you over do it, thats why some cars run downshift protection.

Wow, so now I know why I sometimes try to imitate some drivers brake points but fail badly. When I try to do that i actually almost have no brake force at all, i don’t know what i‘m Doing wrong. I always downshift and brake gradually and use the optimum rpm to shorten the brake distance. How much time can be gained by doing this?

 

[rex1825]

My advice is a bit different... But CSA should be off by deff since start. Also ASM should be off, it can mess you sometimes really hard.

If you are into race cars, start with GT4 (that is Gr.4) cars. Take a RWD car, for example Porsche GT4 Club Sport. It has really great torque curve, and you don't need to be as precise on shifting, won't loose too much time on it. TCS on this car can be from beginning on 0, brake bias set to 1-2 (more to rear). Start on easy and more simple tracks. Don't use any aids for drive line, simply get the feeling for track and in time you'll get track limits by yourself. Don't ignore prefered gear indicator for turning, use that as orientation, but leave car always in +1 gear (higher gear) then showed, this way you'll learn controlling throttle in turns.
If needed reduce power by 5 (even 10%).

Learn to lisen to engine note, rememmber the shifting point by sound of car.

It will be hard in the beginning, later on, you won't k ow to drive AT in racing games
Try braking in straight line, later go for trail braking.

Have fun...

 

[HatMarris]

Thanks again all

I have had countersteer off for a few days now and have taken off ASM in the last day. I’m still a bit clumsy with the gas trigger to have TCS off fully (and still have fun in sport mode) but I have taken it down 1 notch on every car I have driven from what I would usually have.

It’s very strange. Even with these few things off I am now getting a feel for which of the cars suit me or are more forgiving of my skills while I’m learning. I end up doing race B at Brazil in the Peugeot because apart from the Ford that is what I am most consistent in. Very forgiving up heavy hands.

And weirdly whereas I always liked to use the Trophy in a race I don’t like it half as much while I am learning with these aids off. I’m faster in other GR 4 cars at the moment

 

[Shottah072]

Wow, so now I know why I sometimes try to imitate some drivers brake points but fail badly. When I try to do that i actually almost have no brake force at all, i don’t know what i‘m Doing wrong. I always downshift and brake gradually and use the optimum rpm to shorten the brake distance. How much time can be gained by doing this?

Not that much i guess . There is also engine braking when shifting down normal, just less.

 

[twitcher]

Why Manual over Auto? Serious question. I've been using Auto for years.

@Shottah072 got most of the reasons why, but I’d also add:

- with a semi-auto paddle shift transmission, you can use really quick gear changes mid corner to help control the rotation of the car. I use this a lot in really slow corners, like in the first sector of Nurb GP. In the really slow corners, if I need to tighten up the radius of the corner, I’ll downshift a gear for a split second, then right back up before getting on the power.

- helping control the car when you get hit. If I get hit mid corner, sometimes a quick upshift can help prevent the rear from stepping out too much. Other times, a quick downshift and a blip of throttle car help corner understeer caused by contact.

When you get good with manual, the transmission (and your diff settings) just becomes another tool in your pocket that you can use to control the balance of the car in various situations.

Some cars drop out of their power band when they redline, so short shifting is actually faster in them. However, I can only remember one car that did this in Gran Turismo.

‘97 Supra RZ as well.

Jus looking through my garage at random cars, it looks like the FC RX7 and Ford GT are both in this boat as well. If you look at the power graphs, the RPM listed on the bottom is usually the redline RPM the games tells you to shift at, but both of those cars reach peak power some 500-1000 RPM before the redline, and then drop off. Shifting at the redline is fine for the lower gears, but if the transmission is set up properly, you should be able to short shift from 4th through 6th and stay closer to peak power for longer.

I agree on everything, but what is engine braking, and more important how does it work? Can you explain it.

Engine breaking is also called compression braking. You use the mechanical resistance of the drive train to help slow the car down.

Not only does it provide additional stopping power, in RWD cars, it adds a type of balanced feeling to the stopping power - it’s braking at the rear, but it’s braking force that is unlikely to lock up. It is possible to lock the rears by downshifting too fast, but if done properly, it’s almost always avoidable.

 

[desmodan]

And Squirel boys journey finally starts

Unless your real names Sebastian Loeb you're gonna need a varying amount of traction control/abs for a while but apart from that leave it all alone and just enjoy the learning experience .
Like many here I've been wasting my life since gt1 , but will readily admit that sometimes ambition gives ability a good kicking , and that's all part of it . Turn up the traction a bit and try again .

 

[Jmac279]

Here's another example:

Here we have the high-level overview of the Toyota MR2 GT-S '97

It has a peak power output of 243 bhp at 6000 RPM and a peak torque output of 224.2 ft-lb at 4000 RPM (170.8 bhp)

As shown on the power graph, the peak power is well before the 8000 RPM fuel cut-off point.

Using MS Paint to see the power drop off, we see that we're making the same amount of power just prior to the fuel cut-off (171 bhp) as we are at 4000 RPM (peak torque). Based on pixels in MS Paint, this is approximately 7800 RPM. Power drops off slightly between 6000 RPM and 6500 RPM from 243 bhp to 239 bhp before diving sharply. Power drops off faster after 6500 RPM than it does below 6000 RPM (-5.2 bhp per 100 RPM vs. -3.6 bhp per 100 RPM).

Here we see the stock gear ratios of 3.230, 1.913, 1.258, 0.918, and 0.731 with a final drive ratio of 4.285. The default shift point is 7300 RPM.

Here we can see the shift indicator starting to flash just before hitting 7300 RPM.

Again, using pixels in MS Paint, we can estimate power at 7300 RPM to be 199 bhp, a 44 bhp drop from peak at 6000 RPM.

Now, if we shift at 7300 RPM in each gear, we'll end up at the following RPMs in the next gear:

1st -> 2nd: 7300 RPM -> 4323 RPM
2nd -> 3rd: 7300 RPM -> 4801 RPM
3rd -> 4th: 7300 RPM -> 5327 RPM
4th -> 5th: 7300 RPM -> 5813 RPM

Average power:
2nd: 217.7 bhp
3rd: 223.2 bhp
4th: 227.1 bhp

If you change your shift points to:
1st -> 2nd: 7500 RPM -> 4442 RPM
2nd -> 3rd: 7300 RPM -> 4801 RPM
3rd -> 4th: 7000 RPM -> 5108 RPM
4th -> 5th: 6800 RPM -> 5415 RPM

Average power:
2nd: 218.9 bhp (+1.2)
3rd: 225.9 bhp (+2.7)
4th: 230.9 bhp (+3.8)

With a parabolic power curve like this, you want to shift when power in current gear = power in next gear.

If you customize your transmission, your goal is to stay as close to peak power as possible (though you may have slightly different setups from circuit to circuit to maximize power coming out of certain corners for example).

Example:
Custom Transmission (Default Transmission)
1st: 2.609 (3.230)
2nd: 1.698 (1.913)
3rd: 1.280 (1.258)
4th: 1.000 (0.918)
5th: 0.781 (0.731)
Final: 4.011 (4.285)

Shifts:
1st -> 2nd: 7300 RPM -> 4751 RPM
2nd -> 3rd: 7100 RPM -> 5352 RPM
3rd -> 4th: 6850 RPM -> 5352 RPM
4th -> 5th: 6850 RPM -> 5350 RPM

Average Power (50 km/h to 250 km/h):
Default Transmission (shift @ redline): 224.0 bhp
Default Transmission (optimum shifts): 225.1 bhp (+1.1)
Custom Transmission (optimum shifts): 228.7 bhp (+4.7)

Power vs. Speed Graph (with a slightly different custom transmission; power logged every 5 km/h):

 

[vvise]

Here's another example:

Here we have the high-level overview of the Toyota MR2 GT-S '97

It has a peak power output of 243 bhp at 6000 RPM and a peak torque output of 224.2 ft-lb at 4000 RPM (170.8 bhp)

As shown on the power graph, the peak power is well before the 8000 RPM fuel cut-off point.

Using MS Paint to see the power drop off, we see that we're making the same amount of power just prior to the fuel cut-off (171 bhp) as we are at 4000 RPM (peak torque). Based on pixels in MS Paint, this is approximately 7800 RPM. Power drops off slightly between 6000 RPM and 6500 RPM from 243 bhp to 239 bhp before diving sharply. Power drops off faster after 6500 RPM than it does below 6000 RPM (-5.2 bhp per 100 RPM vs. -3.6 bhp per 100 RPM).

Here we see the stock gear ratios of 3.230, 1.913, 1.258, 0.918, and 0.731 with a final drive ratio of 4.285. The default shift point is 7300 RPM.

Here we can see the shift indicator starting to flash just before hitting 7300 RPM.

Again, using pixels in MS Paint, we can estimate power at 7300 RPM to be 199 bhp, a 44 bhp drop from peak at 6000 RPM.

Now, if we shift at 7300 RPM in each gear, we'll end up at the following RPMs in the next gear:

1st -> 2nd: 7300 RPM -> 4323 RPM
2nd -> 3rd: 7300 RPM -> 4801 RPM
3rd -> 4th: 7300 RPM -> 5327 RPM
4th -> 5th: 7300 RPM -> 5813 RPM

Average power:
2nd: 217.7 bhp
3rd: 223.2 bhp
4th: 227.1 bhp

If you change your shift points to:
1st -> 2nd: 7500 RPM -> 4442 RPM
2nd -> 3rd: 7300 RPM -> 4801 RPM
3rd -> 4th: 7000 RPM -> 5108 RPM
4th -> 5th: 6800 RPM -> 5415 RPM

Average power:
2nd: 218.9 bhp (+1.2)
3rd: 225.9 bhp (+2.7)
4th: 230.9 bhp (+3.8)

With a parabolic power curve like this, you want to shift when power in current gear = power in next gear.

If you customize your transmission, your goal is to stay as close to peak power as possible (though you may have slightly different setups from circuit to circuit to maximize power coming out of certain corners for example).

Example:
Custom Transmission (Default Transmission)
1st: 2.609 (3.230)
2nd: 1.698 (1.913)
3rd: 1.280 (1.258)
4th: 1.000 (0.918)
5th: 0.781 (0.731)
Final: 4.011 (4.285)

Shifts:
1st -> 2nd: 7300 RPM -> 4751 RPM
2nd -> 3rd: 7100 RPM -> 5352 RPM
3rd -> 4th: 6850 RPM -> 5352 RPM
4th -> 5th: 6850 RPM -> 5350 RPM

Average Power (50 km/h to 250 km/h):
Default Transmission (shift @ redline): 224.0 bhp
Default Transmission (optimum shifts): 225.1 bhp (+1.1)
Custom Transmission (optimum shifts): 228.7 bhp (+4.7)

This is an incredible post. This can be done for a lot of vehicles but it's really nice to actually see all the numbers for once.

 

[yas]

Engine breaking is also called compression braking. You use the mechanical resistance of the drive train to help slow the car down.

Not only does it provide additional stopping power, in RWD cars, it adds a type of balanced feeling to the stopping power - it’s braking at the rear, but it’s braking force that is unlikely to lock up. It is possible to lock the rears by downshifting too fast, but if done properly, it’s almost always avoidable.

It is efficient especially on a long downhill to control your speed with the engine - no fuel is used and you are saving your brakes. Not only wear on pads (the pads are cheaper than a clutch and quicker to replace), but if you keep pressing your brakes for a long time they start to heat up. As they go hotter, they become less effective and start to fade. So better use a mix of the two so you can have an emergency break reserve at all times and keep their predictable behavior. It is just as usable on a FWD car as long as you don't push the limits.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I've heard contradicting advice regarding short shifting on corner entry. If I'm having a ropey exit (getting that sideways feeling) I will usually shift up instead of lifting off the throttle and rolling it out. A lot of people seem to say that's a good strategy as a higher gear will help stabilise the car. However I've heard some people say it's one of the worst things you can do and it's better to lift off.

I use a pad and usually have TCS on 2.

Like everything it depends on the car and the track. I used to short shift for exits when I was driving high torque cars (Yellowbird, Suzuki Escudo, etc.) usually exiting in one gear higher than the suggested gear for that corner. The problem was that I had to learn which corners needed the short shift and that situation would change for every car and every track. Just raising the power limit for a lobby race would totally screw up my expected speeds and gear changes.

Being able to control the throttle in a lower gear is trickier but it allows me to adapt quicker to a course as I have the control to adapt to what the car needs on the fly. It's embarrassing to short shift out of a turn in a race, to then just realize that the gear was too high for the corner as people pass you like you were a geriatric in a Scion.

 

[inri]

I've heard contradicting advice regarding short shifting on corner entry. If I'm having a ropey exit (getting that sideways feeling) I will usually shift up instead of lifting off the throttle and rolling it out. A lot of people seem to say that's a good strategy as a higher gear will help stabilise the car. However I've heard some people say it's one of the worst things you can do and it's better to lift off.

I use a pad and usually have TCS on 2.

It probably is more stable but it sounds like it would slow you down a lot

 

[twitcher]

@invetedevo @PirovacBoy, some examples of why to me, Manual is the better option. Here’s a 5 minute video of me going for a highway cruise in the ‘97 Supra RZ:

Max power - 903hp
Max Torque - 1088ft-lb
Weight - 2,895lbs
Tires - Sport Soft

(All aids off, except for ABS set to default)

This car is a beast. It can do well over 400km/h in a slip stream, it’ll light the rear tires up all the way into 5th gear, and the turbo has some serious bite when it kicks in. I’ll link another video about driving turbo cars at the bottom.

If it weren’t for the manual transmission, I don’t think I’d be able to drive this car.


Pause the video when I’m in the settings screen, and look at the power curves. Redline (fuel shutoff) is at 7000rpm, but max power is closer to 6000rpm.

So, I’m using the manual transmission to do a lot of different things in terms of controlling the massive power of this car.

1. Almost any hard acceleration from low and medium speed, I’m short shifting to control the wheelspin.

2. In gears 4 through 6 on the main straight, I’m watching and timing my upshifting to try to keep the RPM as close to peak power as possible. This means shifting before the game is telling me to. I’m still working on tuning the transmission to fully dial in the rpm drop with each upshift.

3. There’s not exactly a great example in this bit of driving, but in some situations I will hold a gear instead of upshifting, to help control wheelspin. The closer the redline I get, the less power I have, so holding a gear past when the game tells you to shift can help control wheelspin. Sometimes this is a more preferable way to go about controlling the wheelspin, as it doesn’t involve inputs that can upset the balance of the car (like upshifting can).

4. For the heavy braking zones, I’m controlling my downshifts to help slow the car down. Without these downshifts, I’d be in the wall for sure.

5. In the twisty middle sector, I’m using the timing of my downshifts and the balance shift they cause to help rotate the car into corners.

6. At 1:54 of the video, I miss the turn-in point for the uphill right hander, and start understeering towards the wall. I realize my mistake, and am feathering the brakes as much as I can trying to slow the car and get it to rotate, but because of the bumps and the camber change, I can’t shake the understeer. If you watch the gear indicator, you can see that at the last second, I downshift into 2nd for just a second, before going back to 3rd to accelerate out of the corner. That downshift to 2nd caused maybe 1/2 a degree of rotation into the corner, but it was enough to save me from hitting the wall. I upshift back to 3rd quickly, as getting on the power in 2nd will cause instant wheelspin.

The tune is still a work in progress, there’s lots of room to get the transmission dialed in even tighter, which will then let me free up the suspension a little bit to enhance the cornering ability. I thought it was a good overall example of how a manual transmission can add more tools to control a car, especially a powerful one.

@Jmac279, care to do a breakdown of the power and torque numbers for the ‘97 Supra RZ ? I’ve just been eyeballing it so far, but your numbers are next level 👍


Here’s the video about driving turbo cars that I mentioned earlier. The setup stuff is irrelevent for GTS, but the driving and footwork techniques still apply.

 

[Jmac279]

Overview of the Toyota Supra RZ '97

I don't have the mileage points to max out the power, so I'll just do the stock Supra.

Power Graph

Power Graph (Marked Up)

Gear Ratios

Data Table plotting horizontal and vertical pixel positions (using MS Paint) and relative horsepower and engine speed.
Each vertical pixel = 0.92 bhp
Each horizontal pixel = 18.81 RPM
Calculated speed and force in each gear

Horsepower & Torque

Force vs. Speed

Power vs. Speed (Default 6800 RPM shift points vs. Optimized shift points)

Power & Force vs. Speed (Default 6800 RPM shift points vs. Optimized shift points)

Optimum Shift Points (round to nearest 100 RPM):
1st: 7000 RPM
2nd: 6600 RPM
3rd: 6300 RPM
4th: 6000 RPM
5th: 6100 RPM

 

[rono_thomas]

Overview of the Toyota Supra RZ '97

I don't have the mileage points to max out the power, so I'll just do the stock Supra.

Power Graph

Power Graph (Marked Up)

Gear Ratios

Data Table plotting horizontal and vertical pixel positions (using MS Paint) and relative horsepower and engine speed.
Each vertical pixel = 0.92 bhp
Each horizontal pixel = 18.81 RPM
Calculated speed and force in each gear

Horsepower & Torque

Force vs. Speed

Power vs. Speed (Default 6800 RPM shift points vs. Optimized shift points)

Power & Force vs. Speed (Default 6800 RPM shift points vs. Optimized shift points)

Optimum Shift Points (round to nearest 100 RPM):
1st: 7000 RPM
2nd: 6600 RPM
3rd: 6300 RPM
4th: 6000 RPM
5th: 6100 RPM

How are you doing that? Amazing work.

 

[Aceofsquares]

Once you play manual, you wont be going back to automatic anytime soon. It effects your driving for ALL racing games.

 

[XSquareStickIt]

To be honest, if your ultimate goal is to achieve the best lap times possible, I personally don't see a reason to switch off ABS, or even meddle with it. I find that the default ABS works best for most cars, but of course that's just personal preference. You're free to experiment with what works best for you, and this doesn't just apply to ABS, as well. There are arguments out there (I'm sure...) of CSA helping people go faster.



Still, I personally only drive with ABS on default. Thing is, most modern cars, especially the super and hypercars, come with gigantic brakes that necessitate the use of ABS; without ABS even lightly feathering the brake pedal will lock the wheels because of how heavy duty the brakes are. That is to say, turning off ABS in the game is a death sentence in many cars, and even in real life you'd need to jump through a lot of hoops and hurdles just to disable ABS, IF the manufacturer even gives you the option to.

If you're still interested in driving with completely no aids, I would say - learn to drive manual first. It's... like learning how to breathe. Once you develop the habit of listening to an engine, knowing when to up and downshift, it becomes second nature, and you can then focus on learning to drive without the other aids. In fact, I feel frustrated and bored when I drive an auto in real life, being a control freak, ahah.

As previous replies have elaborated on, there is no reason to drive automatic in a racing game; even F1 cars have their drivers decide when to shift. I'm not going to elaborate on the benefits of manual transmission here, but I would recommend you learn how to shift manually before anything else.

I've never driven with ASM or CSA, so I don't really know what they do, so I can't really offer any opinion on that front. But I can chime in on ABS.

I think it's best to start with an old car, like the FC3S RX-7, since back then ABS wasn't standard, or even offered, on some cars, and as such the cars from that era aren't reliant on ABS to not make a mess of themselves, with their braking balance/ braking force carefully tuned from the factory to pose minimal risk of locking up your wheels even under full braking. It can also be helpful to shift your brake balance more to the rear since rear brakes are always smaller (and weaker) than those up front, and I personally find that the rear tyres are often under utilised under full braking, due to safety reasons. If you find that your front tyres always lock up before the rear under hard braking, you can consider shifting the brake balance to the rear (a positive value in GT Sport basically). You'll also have to be very cognizant of how much grip you have on your front tyres when you brake without ABS, and distribute that grip between braking and turning as necessary on your own. As such, you will really need to keep an ear out for your tyres squealing. Having a wheel also helps immensely because your steering wheel will suddenly feel a lot lighter once your front wheels start slipping, but I'm not sure how that sensation translates over to a DS4 controller. The benefit of driving without ABS is that you get to "feel" the car more, and you can make the most of the grip you have at any time instead of leaving that decision up to a computer that was tailored for a stock car when you may have fiddled around with it since.

Here are two videos of me driving a stock FC and my personally tuned FD around Barthurst and Tokyo East Inner Loop, respectively, both without ABS. I apologise for the lack of HUD in cockpit view, it kinda breaks the immersion for me, but during the replay you can see how I pump my brakes to ease the wheels up from locking, and note how I use significantly less braking when I'm turning into a corner:




I hope this isn't too much to take in. Good luck!

 

[fastone371]

Just looking through my garage at random cars, it looks like the FC RX7 and Ford GT are both in this boat as well. If you look at the power graphs, the RPM listed on the bottom is usually the redline RPM the games tells you to shift at, but both of those cars reach peak power some 500-1000 RPM before the redline, and then drop off. Shifting at the redline is fine for the lower gears, but if the transmission is set up properly, you should be able to short shift from 4th through 6th and stay closer to peak power for longer.

I can promise you GTS got this wrong. In real life the best way to get maximum acceleration out of a car is to REV the engine beyond peak HP so that you do not pull the engine too far below peak torque on gear changes. Drag race cars typically shift 1,000 RPMs minimum beyond peak dyno HP. Our engine had peak HP at 6800 RPMs and peak torque was at 4800 RPMs. Shift point was at 7600 RPM and trap RPM was 7900 RPM. I decided to change rear gear from 4.56 to 4.30 and shift at 7200 RPMs, the car slowed down 2/10ths of a second. Trap RPM dropped to 7500 RPMs and we lost 5 MPH at the finish line. I was forced to confess what an idiot I was as we were changing everything back.