Tyres, and more

[Exorcet]

GT5P's "stock" tire list is pretty ridiculous since it makes nearly every car capable of 1.3 g on the skidpad. N2, N3 are the closest for real life, at least in terms of lateral g. I feel that their longitudinal g is too low, but over all they seem more appropriate.

Back in GT4, Road tires (GT4's N3) were considered stock for sports cars, and the AI could use them, but I think it was only in races where you could select tires, like arcade mode and track events.

I'd like to see real tires represented in game and stock options (I also happen to be one of the people who would like to race on them), but first I want to see the physics fixed. It doesn't make any sense that you can put an F430 on N3's and get 1 g in a corner, then equipped the same tires on a Suzuki and pull the same 1 g. At this point, tires don't take the car they are mounted on into account, and that is a serious short coming.

 

[mu22stang]

Q:

Besides... who sticks with the cruddy stockers in real life, anyway?

A:

N1-N3 = showroom stock, period. But, choices are always good.

===

Thing I don't like about the list PD provided is even with updates, like when they increased grip of S tyres they didn't adjust the list, which meant the cars on S tyres got a even larger advantage.

Exactly, I'm not sure why so many are getting on about this perfect tire list. I mean seriously, EVOs and NSX-Rs with S1-S2 - no. It's not right at all. Once again though, use whatever you want, but don't kid yourselves (general, not directed towards any one individual) into believing cars from the factory have as much grip as the Ss provide. A couple at best.

 

[Jack]

mu22stang - Of course they do. Take the GTR for example. In the real world it had a special compound tyre made to suit the car. Not driven the car, but read many reviews and they all talk about the grip and G's it produces. Not for a second I wouldn’t doubt it was on S's in the game and on the list..

Nisan GT-R: S1~S2

This is a car that in the real world produces one of the biggest amount of G and, is one of the best handling. As I expect it has one of the best compound tires in the game.

Where as a less developed and lower performance cars do not need the grip produced by an 'S' tyre.

Bmw BMW Z4: N2~N3
Bmw BMW 135i Coup: N2~N3

Both BMW's aren’t in the same league in performance as a car like a GTR, hence worst tyres fitted stock.

Tyres in GT5 are given to us to represent all manufacture fixed tyres. N1-2 are for the lower performance car, N3's are starting to produce abit more but still not top of the range. Intended for performance FWD. S1-2's shown on the list are getting into higher performance cars.

Now with these physic updates, the list wasn’t updated. Maybe PD included S3's in this to give a wider range for options. Who knows the list may be re-made and given with GT5.

If you do some testing you will see that the list is actually very accurate!

 

[Sniffs]

to the original thread starter: if you can't think how to get your point across, put it in your own tongue. some of us DO know a smattering of the Romance Languages, and there's plenty of translator programs and pages online that aren't as stupid at converting to English as you think.

 

[mu22stang]

If you do some testing you will see that the list is actually very accurate!

I have, otherwise I wouldn't be making the statements that I thought were pretty common knowledge.

There is no way to exactly similuate vehicular behavior by choosing a car-tire combo using the system you described. Car-tire combos on the game are not analagous to car-tire combos in reality. The only way that would be true, is if the physics were perfect, or at least reasonably so, for each car AND the grip differences between each PD tire type closely mimic the differences in grip from one tire brand/type to another. I'm not so sure it's that simple.

I believe PD realized the deviation from reality and accounted for it in their tire choice list, which explains some of their variations. But, I think their choices cater to the arcade racers, and not the simulation crowd, as much of the game does - More grip to increase the sense of speed and reduce understeer frustration.

 

[Jack]

The statement you made was the N1 - N3 would be fitted in all showrooms as a stock tyre to the car.

That statement is wrong. N1 is the basic tyre. The bottom of the range. It doesnt produce much grip but will last a long time. Its a low performance tyre.

The S range is for sports and higher performance cars. Ferrari's and the like. Produces more grip to increase the performance of the car. These are fitted stock. Take the GTR example I gave. A special compound made for the car. Think the popular tyre was a Pirelli P Zero. They wouldnt fit this supercar with an eco tyre or low budget like an N1.

R tyres again take it up a scale and are hitting slick's for racing.

My point being is that all cars wouldnt be fitted with N's as you said. A wider range is used.

 

[mu22stang]

For clarification, I did not say N1~N3 = showroom stock, I said N1-N3 = showroom stock.

 

[Vaxen]

For clarification, I did not say N1~N3 = showroom stock, I said N1-N3 = showroom stock.

 

[Jack]

My thoughts aswell

 

[mu22stang]

The list you pointed me to denotes tires as N1~N2. Meaning N1s for broken in/used tires, N2s as new tires. When you posted this...

...They wouldnt fit this supercar with an eco tyre or low budget like an N1.

...you seemed confused. To clarify again, I'm not proposing ALL cars use N1s as partially worn tires and N3s as fresh rubber. I'm saying, choose your tires within the range of N1-N3.

 

[Jack]

Even if that is the case. I still dont understand your point of all cars would be fitted with N1's, N2's or N3's. Thats clearly ridiculous.

Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? I cant see Ferrari sending out a brand new F430 on N's. Thats stupid and isnt realistic at all.

 

[Exorcet]

F430 actual lateral g ~1

F430 on N3 lateral g ~1

F430 on S1 lateral g ~1.15

CTS-V race car ~1.15 g*


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...of_car_and_driver_testing_feature+page-5.html



http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...of_car_and_driver_testing_feature+page-3.html


That's why N's make more sense.


* Couldn't find the exact source, but the number was around there.

 

[wnffe]

F430 actual lateral g ~1

F430 on N3 lateral g ~1

F430 on S1 lateral g ~1.15

CTS-V race car ~1.15 g*


http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...of_car_and_driver_testing_feature+page-5.html



http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...of_car_and_driver_testing_feature+page-3.html


That's why N's make more sense.


* Couldn't find the exact source, but the number was around there.

Good findingsThis explain the lack of feel GT5P gives through its force feedback. The lack of feedback on N tyres makes us believe that the car has no grip. No proper input to our body makes our reaction late even just for fractions of a second, which is very important to keep in control. Plus, we tend to get carried away so much in games that we don't have any fear. In real life, we'll wet our pants even spinning on 1st gear in ferrari...not too much on bravery fear maybe but fear on the repairing cost!!

Anyway, I do agree that mostly N3-S1 tyres are the way to go for factory stocks.👍

 

[Ghost_drift]

Even if that is the case. I still dont understand your point of all cars would be fitted with N1's, N2's or N3's. Thats clearly ridiculous.

Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? I cant see Ferrari sending out a brand new F430 on N's. Thats stupid and isnt realistic at all.

But you have to ask your self what these tyres reprisent. Like has been said S tyres would reprisent semi slick tyres like is found on the Lotus Exige or that BMW cardboard boot rubbish. And I would probably say Ferrari would send their cars out with nice soft sticky tyres as standerd, so we are probably talking about S1 grip. I think PD have the N's a little messed up. And I am unsure about this But does PD have the same amount of grip on a F430 N3's as there would be on a Suzuki cappacino with N3's. I only ask this as a standerd wheel on a cappacinno is 6" wide and the F430 is 8" wide thus giving the F430 more grip due to alot more rubber in contact with the ground.

I dont know if anyone has actualy tried this out. Or if there is even a way we could exsperiment scientificaly on the matter.

(and I am just using the cap and the 430 as an example of different wheel width's)

 

[Exorcet]

What you mentioned is the tire system's biggest flaw. Every car on N3 gets 1g of grip. If car's actual grip capabilities were simulated, maybe S tires would work.

 

[mu22stang]

I think PD have the N's a little messed up. And I am unsure about this But does PD have the same amount of grip on a F430 N3's as there would be on a Suzuki cappacino with N3's. I only ask this as a standerd wheel on a cappacinno is 6" wide and the F430 is 8" wide thus giving the F430 more grip due to alot more rubber in contact with the ground.

I dont know if anyone has actualy tried this out. Or if there is even a way we could exsperiment scientificaly on the matter.

(and I am just using the cap and the 430 as an example of different wheel width's)

I agree. I think the N3 represents the grip experienced by a higher grade OEM spec tire, like those found on cars with a max grip value of ~1g. But, as you said, the grip level of these virtual tires are independent of the car. So, it's essential like putting some supercar tires, width and all, to any car you so choose. However, the lack of realism goes much deeper - In GT5P, weight, weight shift, and suspension geometry don't dynamically change tire grip characteristics as efficiently as in reality.

The lack of feedback on N tyres makes us believe that the car has no grip.

I couldn't agree more. I think this is where all the confusion and resistance to realistic tire choice spawns.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Also, and sorry to vring up Forza here. But in Forza I noticed that Max speed and acceleration arnt changed by wheel diametre. we all know big wheels = more top end and small wheels = faster exceleration. But I would not be suprised if this was not added to GT5 as well. The phisics we have are nice very nice. But They could be improved with these small, yet very realistic changes. Was it GT3 where they had "simulation tyres" that where supposed to give us the best reprisentation of the real worlds car Handeling. I felt this didnt work very well, it was just super low grip tyre. But PD could add the same thing in GT5. but each car would have a different grip level for the simulation tyres. So a thets say Fiesta would have alot less grip than the ST varient taking into acount the Tyre quality and tyre diametre. OOPS better stop typing its getting on for a rant lol.

 

[JDMKING13]

What you mentioned is the tire system's biggest flaw. Every car on N3 gets 1g of grip. If car's actual grip capabilities were simulated, maybe S tires would work.

👍

 

[NLxAROSA]

I can only quote from my own experience, but in real life the Nissan 350Z's stock tyres (Bridgestone Potenza RE050) feel a lot more like S1's than N3's. But if you take a look at the numbers they don't quite add up. No way I can pound the RE050 in a corner in real life like I can an S1 in GT5P. I think that in real life it's more like N3 grip levels combined with S1 feel.

I can definitely go with the lack of feedback explanation. 👍 When taking the Z for a spin it warns me far in advance when it's going to lose grip (you can almost feel the rubber of the RE050's stretching). Exactly like when driving S tyres in GT5P. None of that when driving N3's, they hardly have any feedback at all.

Also, I believe the 135i Coupe comes on the same tyres (correct me if I'm wrong), but on the 135i PD rates them N2-N3 and on the 350z PD rates them N3-S1? You would expect tyres to rate the same on any car?

 

[JDMKING13]

I can only quote from my own experience, but in real life the Nissan 350Z's stock tyres (Bridgestone Potenza RE050) feel a lot more like S1's than N3's. But if you take a look at the numbers they don't quite add up. No way I can pound the RE050 in a corner in real life like I can an S1 in GT5P. I think that in real life it's more like N3 grip levels combined with S1 feel.

I can definitely go with the lack of feedback explanation. 👍 When taking the Z for a spin it warns me far in advance when it's going to lose grip (you can almost feel the rubber of the RE050's stretching). Exactly like when driving S tyres in GT5P. None of that when driving N3's, they hardly have any feedback at all.

Also, I believe the 135i Coupe comes on the same tyres (correct me if I'm wrong), but on the 135i PD rates them N2-N3 and on the 350z PD rates them N3-S1? You would expect tyres to rate the same on any car?

IMO RE050 are N3 tires, A046 would be a S1 Tire which comes stock on Evo IX

 

[niky]

Hard to find any feedback at all without proper tactile response. Force-feedback through a steering wheel may give you some positional information, but it's not the same as feeling the grain of the road vibrating through the tips of your fingers and the soles of your feet... not to mention the fact that 90% of feedback is via the G-forces you experience while driving.

 

[NLxAROSA]

Hard to find any feedback at all without proper tactile response. Force-feedback through a steering wheel may give you some positional information, but it's not the same as feeling the grain of the road vibrating through the tips of your fingers and the soles of your feet...

True, but that doesn't explain why the feedback (both visually and through FFB) is better when running S-tyres (and even better on R-tyres) as opposed to running N-tyres.

 

[niky]

What kind of visual feedback would you like? Watching a driver on the ball is very boring, in real life. There's very little drama to a well-driven lap as seen from the outside, when in reality, he's sawing at the steering, playing the pedals, and filtering through a ton of information coming to him from the car. I watch a video of myself on the autocross, one wherein I've driven the wheels off, teetering on the edge of oversteer here, on the edge of understeer there, and I just can't see it. It looks so damn slow.

In-game, you can be going much faster than you think you're going because you've got the same effect of watching the drive from a remote perspective (through a monitor) rather than firsthand (3-D glasses? ).

S-tires make things better because they make things happen faster. That "squidge" you get with N-tires, that cushion of understeer that dulls the experience, evaporates, and you're not fighting speed-induced understeer at all times, anymore... which is what you perceive as the lack of feedback from N-tires. That dulling effect that the lack of grip gives you. The increased speed from S-tires counters the slowing effect of the remote perspective (sorry, don't know what else to call it), making it feel more "natural".

Another problem is the speed of the controls. Even with a 900 degree mode, a video-game steering wheel is responsive on a level karters can only dream of. There's none of that heavy fightback... it's even lighter than in the worst electric racks in the real world (errh.... Yaris? ). An analog stick is even worse. Couple that with the lack of vestibular interaction, that tingling in your inner ear that tells you that each degree of wheel movement is causing a certain amount of lateral Gs, and it can all get a little disorientating. N-tires are bad because aside from the lack of vestibular interaction, there's less actual turning happening visually as you move the wheel. S-tires link cause-and-visual-effect more handily, but aren't as "realistic" in terms of actual performance.

Whatever... you learn to re-calibrate your expectations, after a while, and deal with it.

 

[NLxAROSA]

What kind of visual feedback would you like?

I was referring to the fact there appears to be more feedback, both visually and through FFB when driving S-tyres than driving N-tyres. Nothing to do with what I would like.

In-game, you can be going much faster than you think you're going because you've got the same effect of watching the drive from a remote perspective (through a monitor) rather than firsthand (3-D glasses? ).

Absolutely, since there is no roar of a V6 coming from the rear exhaust and you're not being slammed into the back of your seat when flooring it or feel your intestines being squashed when you take a turn 'a bit fast'.

S-tires make things better because they make things happen faster. That "squidge" you get with N-tires, that cushion of understeer that dulls the experience, evaporates, and you're not fighting speed-induced understeer at all times, anymore... which is what you perceive as the lack of feedback from N-tires. That dulling effect that the lack of grip gives you. The increased speed from S-tires counters the slowing effect of the remote perspective (sorry, don't know what else to call it), making it feel more "natural".

This actually makes sense, though I still find it hard to grasp that it is harder (for me at least) to tell where the limit is on N-tyres than it is on S-tyres. My gut feeling says it should be easier to tell when the perception is slower.

S-tires link cause-and-visual-effect more handily, but aren't as "realistic" in terms of actual performance.

Agreed, like I already stated in my previous post. Just toss a 350z in a corner on S2's and see what the maximum speed is before it loses control and then try that same speed IRL (really: DON'T, you'll probably kill yourself ).

Whatever... you learn to re-calibrate your expectations, after a while, and deal with it.

Still, fact is there are plenty of other games out there (not on consoles but on PC) that have way better FFB implementation than GT5P.

That said: I'm enjoying this game no matter what tyre relates best to real world tyres. But it makes nice discussion/chatter.

 

[magburner]

You can look up the list of "stock" tires in the in-game manual for GT5: P.

Yeah, and what a pain in the ass that is! Why should I even bee looking through a manual, when PD could pre-program the game to have those tyres already fitted? Its laziness on their part I think.

 

[Ardius]

Yeah, and what a pain in the ass that is! Why should I even bee looking through a manual, when PD could pre-program the game to have those tyres already fitted? Its laziness on their part I think.

Because of the setups system? Remember it saves your setups? Everytime you enter tyre-restricted races it automatically changes your setup, it would be pointless for them to have default tyres programmed in when they would be changed so much anyway.
Not so much laziness, more pointless waste of time - seeing as most people don't care about running on stock tyres when racing. The ones that do surely would have the motivation to look up the tyres in the manual.