UAW Strikes! Axle Issues Idle GM Plants

[ERacer]

Someone once said to me, "there's a lot of money out there, but it doesn't come with any instructions."

I'm stating the obvious here, but in an effort to remain competitive, all companies in all industries worldwide continually examine ways to lower production costs. Whether accomplished by means of domestic and foreign outsourcing and/or relocating jobs, or in some cases, closing production lines/plants and changing management, all companies must examine these options in order to survive. I think we all can acknowledge and support the competitive economic, social and political situations which force our companies to adapt more efficient means to market their various goods and services. I know we can argue over the best ways to address those situations. But I'm against any political influence such as subsidizing a group of workers, or even an entire company, by creating an artificial, and inflationary, cost basis in an effort to compete. It's simply not how an open market should work. Just look at Amtrak (US rail operator) as an example of a subsidized company. Amtrak's financial results have made their return to private operation infeasible - amazingly, they don't even have any direct competition!! And minimum wage is subsidized labor - all of which we (Americans) pay for every year on April 15. Sadly, there will always be someone willing to work for less pay. Conversely, there will always be an employer willing to pay more for good work.

I believe, in the long term, no amount of artificial intervention through global tariffs or import/export restrictions or subsidized labor will ever produce a level playing field for any large multi-national company or industry because the complex geo-political climate in which these behemoths operate is continually changing. What is happening to GM today can be traced back to decades of pivotal management decisions which are now being so painfully felt. The terms regarding their employee benefits contract comes to mind. As does the Delphi mess. It goes far beyond protests surrounding their decisions regarding relocating their engineering centers, or sub-contracting for parts and labor to other countries around the world, or protecting their unionized labor force. It's about survival in a world economy! And yes, the UAW is mighty enough to impact their survival. Interestingly, membership in unionized labor is steadily shrinking here in the USA . However, the bottom line is you cannot compete successfully if you are spending more money than your competitor is to produce the same product targeted at the same consumer.

Whether you are discussing a nation, corporation, organization or individual, one thing can be said of all - money follows value.

That should probably be the first item on the money instruction book


On a side note, I drive a Hummer H3 - so, yeah, I'm concerned about GM.

ERacer

 

[Omnis]

Didn't American Airlines try out a merit-system with non-unioners to restore and overhaul airplanes? If I recall correctly, it was a great success.

 

[vladimir]

there are two reasons for this problem and they have nothing to do with the unions.

firstly, health care which is apparently a massive problem for GM. with people growing older and older there are more and more costs, which in most if not all other developed nations are being carried by a nationwide health care system. in this case, however, it puts an enormous burden on GM.


secondly, GM just does not built good enough cars (just like ford and chrysler), or does anybody have an explanation why they keep loosing market share in the US to the japanese and germans? not to speak about the international market in which they are virtually nonexistent, except for their local brands that sell very different cars (even though some parts might be the same.)
and thats not a problem of unions either. labour costs in germany are far higher for example and from what i've heard its not the price tag thats driving customers away.

 

[Joey D]

GM doesn't build good cars because the UAW employees don't produce a good product, so the problem is the union's fault if you want to look at it that way. And the UAW is also the reason GM cars are so expensive for what you get, you have a bunch of people abusing the system and getting paid for not doing work, this cost GM $x more so they charge $x to the consumer for a product that is just so-so. This is why a $30,000 BMW is better then a $30,000 Cadillac.

Get rid of the UAW and your problem is solved.

 

[Philly]

GM doesn't build good cars because the UAW employees don't produce a good product, so the problem is the union's fault if you want to look at it that way. And the UAW is also the reason GM cars are so expensive for what you get, you have a bunch of people abusing the system and getting paid for not doing work, this cost GM $x more so they charge $x to the consumer for a product that is just so-so. This is why a $30,000 BMW is better then a $30,000 Cadillac.

Get rid of the UAW and your problem is solved.

Serious? The union has nothing to do with the quality of the product. That problem comes from the non-union, high paid designers. All the workers do is put the pieces together.

How does the UAW cost GM money? The union is just making sure that the workers will stay content. If GM did it right in the first place, then they wouldn't have any problems with discontent workers or unions.

If GM spent a little more money, they could easily make production easier and end up saving money. If BMW can make a more costly car (in Germany), then ship it over here, and sell it for as much as a Cadillac that isnt' nearly as good, GM should easily be able to cut their production costs by a lot.

 

[Joey D]

Serious? The union has nothing to do with the quality of the product. That problem comes from the non-union, high paid designers. All the workers do is put the pieces together.

No the designs on GM vehicles are fine, granted some are rather boring like the Cobalt and there are some ugly ones like the Arcadia, but for the most part GM designs a fairly good looking vehicle. They just can not screw them together worth a damn, which is the UAW's fault. People who aren't in the union run the risk of losing their job if they don't do things correctly, why do you think certain departments have layoffs? They aren't making par. If GM could do that with the lazy ass UAW it would be better.

How does the UAW cost GM money? The union is just making sure that the workers will stay content. If GM did it right in the first place, then they wouldn't have any problems with discontent workers or unions.

If a UAW work ever told me he was not happy with his job I would punch him in the face and tell him he had no idea what it's like to actually work for a living. They "work" upwards of 70 hours a week at times and probably only accomplish 10 hours worth of work in that time. Anything over 40 hours is time and a half. That's costing GM money. Also they refuse to chip in for health care when just about every other employee in America does.

I've seen UAW guys steal parts, play around on the internet for hours, sleep, make things for personal using GM's materials on company time, drink (yes alcohol at lunch time), and hell one guy even ran his personal company during work time and my boss even knew about it but couldn't do anything about it.

I suggest anyone who supports the UAW take a job in the auto industry working on the non-union side and see how lame these people are. Granted I worked there for only four months back in 2004, but still it was a good enough experience for me. I will never support unions ever.

If GM spent a little more money, they could easily make production easier and end up saving money. If BMW can make a more costly car (in Germany), then ship it over here, and sell it for as much as a Cadillac that isnt' nearly as good, GM should easily be able to cut their production costs by a lot.

The production costs are from the UAW. Union workers just don't work on the line, but back in mock-ups where the prototypes are made (this is where I worked). Plus GM has to spend an insane amount on health care, can't fire lame employees, and have to pay these losers overtime when they do no work.

I suggest you really should look into what goes on in the auto industry and how it affects everything, you are in Michigan now, we live and breath the auto industry.

 

[Philly]

No the designs on GM vehicles are fine, granted some are rather boring like the Cobalt and there are some ugly ones like the Arcadia, but for the most part GM designs a fairly good looking vehicle. They just can not screw them together worth a damn, which is the UAW's fault.

Really? So cars like the Aveo, Avalanche, HHR, Grand Prix and others are well put together vehicles because the UAW or CAW do not assemble them? I'm guessing this is also the reason the Tacoma is a poorly screwed together truck and why Toyota can't seem to put a Corolla together and have it stay that way.

List of 2008 UAW and CAW vehicles

People who aren't in the union run the risk of losing their job if they don't do things correctly, why do you think certain departments have layoffs? They aren't making par. If GM could do that with the lazy ass UAW it would be better.

So we don't need to prevent GM from closing all of the Michigan plants? They will all stay open if there was no union to push for this, I'm guessing. Maybe if the quality of work was in fact better. I'm guessing that taking away a little of that job security from union workers they will work a little better.

If a UAW work ever told me he was not happy with his job I would punch him in the face and tell him he had no idea what it's like to actually work for a living. They "work" upwards of 70 hours a week at times and probably only accomplish 10 hours worth of work in that time. Anything over 40 hours is time and a half. That's costing GM money. Also they refuse to chip in for health care when just about every other employee in America does.

Hmm. Lack of motivation. Partly GM's fault? Partly the union's fault?

I've seen UAW guys steal parts, play around on the internet for hours, sleep, make things for personal using GM's materials on company time, drink (yes alcohol at lunch time), and hell one guy even ran his personal company during work time and my boss even knew about it but couldn't do anything about it.

Stealing parts and things is probably pretty common for anybody. You can't guarantee that every worker in every company will be completely honest when they walk out every day. And is it really impossible for GM to fire employees that are just being potatoes? I would agree with you there. Maybe the UAW would need to relax on that point.

I suggest anyone who supports the UAW take a job in the auto industry working on the non-union side and see how lame these people are. Granted I worked there for only four months back in 2004, but still it was a good enough experience for me. I will never support unions ever.

That might be a decent summer job. There aren't many car plants at home though.

The production costs are from the UAW. Union workers just don't work on the line, but back in mock-ups where the prototypes are made (this is where I worked). Plus GM has to spend an insane amount on health care, can't fire lame employees, and have to pay these losers overtime when they do no work.

A little motivation can solve the problems of idleness. I do believe that GM should have the ability to fire employees who do not work. That is just simple economics.

I suggest you really should look into what goes on in the auto industry and how it affects everything, you are in Michigan now, we live and breath the auto industry.

I do come from Seattle. Since 9-11, unions and Boeing have been forcing jobs out of the area. I'm familiar with these kinds of crisis.

 

[Joey D]

Really? So cars like the Aveo, Avalanche, HHR, Grand Prix and others are well put together vehicles because the UAW or CAW do not assemble them? I'm guessing this is also the reason the Tacoma is a poorly screwed together truck and why Toyota can't seem to put a Corolla together and have it stay that way.

List of 2008 UAW and CAW vehicles

No, they are made in Mexico though and I really can't say a Mexican built car is steller. The Aveo is made in Korea though if I'm not mistaken, and we all know Korean cars aren't exactly the best in the business. One thing I don't understand is why the Avalanche is on there, I was certain they were made right along with all the other GMT-900 vehicles.

I've often wondered what Toyota does for there UAW members but they seem to not do a crappy job.

So we don't need to prevent GM from closing all of the Michigan plants? They will all stay open if there was no union to push for this, I'm guessing. Maybe if the quality of work was in fact better. I'm guessing that taking away a little of that job security from union workers they will work a little better.

If the American UAW workers are incompetent and want to do a poor job I say ship there jobs to another country. I personally think they do deserve to have as good as a job as they do because a.) a majority of them have never gone to college and b.) a majority of them are lazy.

Stealing parts and things is probably pretty common for anybody. You can't guarantee that every worker in every company will be completely honest when they walk out every day. And is it really impossible for GM to fire employees that are just being potatoes? I would agree with you there. Maybe the UAW would need to relax on that point.

That's what part of the strike is over, they want a job pool for the streamlined factories so that everyone can keep their job whether they are good at it or not. And yes it is that bad at GM and no you can not fire them.

That might be a decent summer job. There aren't many car plants at home though.

I didn't work in a factory, it was a mock-up where they were making the prototypes for the GMT-900 and GMT-355.

A little motivation can solve the problems of idleness. I do believe that GM should have the ability to fire employees who do not work. That is just simple economics.

They would have to fire a lot of people.

 

[Philly]

No, they are made in Mexico though and I really can't say a Mexican built car is steller. The Aveo is made in Korea though if I'm not mistaken, and we all know Korean cars aren't exactly the best in the business. One thing I don't understand is why the Avalanche is on there, I was certain they were made right along with all the other GMT-900 vehicles.

Makes sense. So no matter where GM goes, they still won't be able to build an automobile up to full quality wherever they go. A happier worker in the States would probably do the best job. I want to see what we are capable of. if they actually do build something with quality, a lot of faith in the big three will be restored. And that is suprising about the Avalanche, and it seems that the Caddy version isn't on there either.

I've often wondered what Toyota does for there UAW members but they seem to not do a crappy job.

My guess is that Toyota knows how to handle their employees around the unions. GM probably can too.

If the American UAW workers are incompetent and want to do a poor job I say ship there jobs to another country.

How would outsourcing affect the Michigan economy? I know Seattle suffered when Boeing decided to build stuff in other places. Would Michigan lose out all that much? Would you want that?

I personally think they do deserve to have as good as a job as they do because a.) a majority of them have never gone to college and b.) a majority of them are lazy.

Could you rephrase that? I didn't quite catch your point.

That's what part of the strike is over, they want a job pool for the streamlined factories so that everyone can keep their job whether they are good at it or not. And yes it is that bad at GM and no you can not fire them.

I feel like something is missing. Either the unions are doing something really useful with regards to job security or we are overstating the laziness of the workers. I don't quite believe the union wouldn't pick up on their jobs holding GM back so much.

didn't work in a factory, it was a mock-up where they were making the prototypes for the GMT-900 and GMT-355.

How much does this differ from a regular line?

They would have to fire a lot of people.

Probably not. They could fire a few and once their colleagues see that that GM isn't playing around, they should shape up. Or GM can pick up a more worthwhile workforce.

 

[Joey D]

How would outsourcing affect the Michigan economy? I know Seattle suffered when Boeing decided to build stuff in other places. Would Michigan lose out all that much? Would you want that?

Michigan's economy is already trash because we have Jenny from the block that refuses to do anything except raise college tuition and income tax.

Could you rephrase that? I didn't quite catch your point.

Probably because I typed jibberish.

I personally think they do not deserve to have as good as a job as they do because a.) a majority of them have never gone to college and b.) a majority of them are lazy.

I feel like something is missing. Either the unions are doing something really useful with regards to job security or we are overstating the laziness of the workers. I don't quite believe the union wouldn't pick up on their jobs holding GM back so much.

UAW workers are pretty lazy and they do abuse the system quite a bit. The union protect them though for whatever reason, if they allowed idiots to be fired I wouldn't have a problem...well as much of a problem with the UAW.

How much does this differ from a regular line?

Hand built parts for prototypes. We were working on the GMT-900's (new Silverado, Yukon, etc.) before the public really knew what they were. We also made clay models of certain vehicles as well...we had a Hummer H3 in there when I was there.

Probably not. They could fire a few and once their colleagues see that that GM isn't playing around, they should shape up. Or GM can pick up a more worthwhile workforce.

If they hire someone they more or less have to join the UAW.

 

[a6m5]

I thought the quality of GM cars were up? I have heard, and believe that UAW workers are lazy, but I don't think that's the main issue here.

Main issue here to me is that they don't know when to stop with the demands. Their employer is fighting to stay alive in a very competitive market, but it's been non-stop "what about me? what about me? what about me?" with these guys. These workers are very well taken care of, but they never stop with how they deserve more.

Somebody gave me a negative rep, when I said, "I hope this kills GM" in my earlier post. I didn't mean that I hoped the GM will go out of business(I thought it was quite obvious ), I was making this point.

 

[YSSMAN]

firstly, health care which is apparently a massive problem for GM. with people growing older and older there are more and more costs, which in most if not all other developed nations are being carried by a nationwide health care system. in this case, however, it puts an enormous burden on GM.

Quite right, but as of right now, GM has gotten it sorted out to where it isn't as much of a problem as it had been before. Sure, we could get on the socialized medicine wagon like everyone else, but most sensible Americans would prefer not to. I really don't think any kind of governmental med program would help GM much at all, particularly when you start to consider the taxes required to fund it.

secondly, GM just does not built good enough cars (just like ford and chrysler), or does anybody have an explanation why they keep loosing market share in the US to the japanese and germans? not to speak about the international market in which they are virtually nonexistent, except for their local brands that sell very different cars (even though some parts might be the same.)

Personally, I'd say GM builds better cars than a lot of other companies out there; Dependability and other satisfaction surveys prove it. The problem is, the media has built up such a negative drive towards these companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler) that many people aren't able to see these wonderful new products. Not knowing about how good the Saturn Aura is, or how the GMT900 is cheaper and more efficient than the Tundra (not to mention better at everything else).

Market share loss, I assume, is mostly due to shifts in trends and what the companies offer. Up until a few years ago, American companies were really only focused on trucks, Toyota and Honda making cars, they were poised to win as the gas prices rose... But they had trucks to, and seeing that GM/Ford/Chrysler had an opportunity to win back, they started making things smaller and more "interesting" to draw attention away.

The problem is that everyone is building better and better vehicles and it is becoming harder and harder to bring out a new product and keep it on top for any length of time. What the Americans have learned is that they must make a distinctive product (see 300C, Fusion) that packs in a good amount of value in order to win in a given market.

...Its really all a big mess, but really what it comes down to is having the American companies prove once again that they can build stellar products at a decent price, furthermore, products that are without a doubt better than the competition...

Between the three of them, GM is doing the best as of now.

 

[Duke]

How does the UAW cost GM money? The union is just making sure that the workers will stay content. If GM did it right in the first place, then they wouldn't have any problems with discontent workers or unions.

Are you joking? Do you know anything about the American automotive industry?

Do you realize the HUGE overhead cost burden on each and every GM product sold that is the direct result of increasingly aggressive demands made by the UAW throughout the '60s, '70s, and '80s? Huge pension plans, excessively high pay rates for workers with "seniority" (meaning simply years worked, not ability or rank), minimum worker counts (regardless of need), prohibited plant closings (yes, the UAW can forbid GM to close plants, no matter how outmoded or unnecessary), nearly impossible termination procedures (it's nearly impossible to get fired, and easy to get your job back if you do)... the list goes on and on and on.

I think you need to understand the situation a little more before you make blanket statements like "If GM would just spend a little more, they could make a good car like BMW does..." Do you seriously think, with the way GM has been vomiting money for a decade, that they wouldn't jump on any freaking chance they could to turn a little profit?

Thank the UAW for 70% of GM's problems. The other 30% are solely down to crappy management.

 

[Philly]

Michigan's economy is already trash because we have Jenny from the block that refuses to do anything except raise college tuition and income tax.

I'm not to big on Michigan politics quite yet. Hopefully that will change at some point.

Probably because I typed jibberish.

I personally think they do not deserve to have as good as a job as they do because a.) a majority of them have never gone to college and b.) a majority of them are lazy.

Thanks for clearing that up. It has been the norm for a while that people without a college education go to service jobs or factory jobs. Just because it is a factory job makes me feel like they really are working to the level of their education. You aren't going to be able to fill a factory with college grads unless they are operating technology or something that requires a lot of skill. As for laziness, there isn't much you can do for them.

UAW workers are pretty lazy and they do abuse the system quite a bit. The union protect them though for whatever reason, if they allowed idiots to be fired I wouldn't have a problem...well as much of a problem with the UAW.

Does GM voice their opinions of what the union does to its workers? I'm sure GM and the union could go into negotiations about that and the union probably wouldn't be idiot enough to strike just because GM wants to talk. Hopefully they would take GM's requests like men and not overreact and go riot.

Hand built parts for prototypes. We were working on the GMT-900's (new Silverado, Yukon, etc.) before the public really knew what they were. We also made clay models of certain vehicles as well...we had a Hummer H3 in there when I was there.

How well did those prototypes work? If they had unskilled and lazy workers who did not really care, wouldn't the prototypes with hand built parts be far more vulnerable than ones where the parts are done by machines?

If they hire someone they more or less have to join the UAW.

Right, but if the UAW weren't Nazis about job security, then the problem wouldn't arise again.

I thought the quality of GM cars were up? I have heard, and believe that UAW workers are lazy, but I don't think that's the main issue here.

Main issue here to me is that they don't know when to stop with the demands. Their employer is fighting to stay alive in a very competitive market, but it's been non-stop "what about me? what about me? what about me?" with these guys. These workers are very well taken care of, but they never stop with how they deserve more.

I guess that is the problem with unions. If they fought to ensure that the workers weren't being abused, I'm sure far less of us would have as many issues with them. Instead they are fighting to put the worker farther and farther ahead, and farther ahead than they need to be.

EDIT: Edited to include Duke's reply which was posted while I was responding to Joey's

Are you joking? Do you know anything about the American automotive industry?

Now I know more.

Do you realize the HUGE overhead cost burden on each and every GM product sold that is the direct result of increasingly aggressive demands made by the UAW throughout the '60s, '70s, and '80s? Huge pension plans, excessively high pay rates for workers with "seniority" (meaning simply years worked, not ability or rank), minimum worker counts (regardless of need), prohibited plant closings (yes, the UAW can forbid GM to close plants, no matter how outmoded or unnecessary), nearly impossible termination procedures (it's nearly impossible to get fired, and easy to get your job back if you do)... the list goes on and on and on.

How much more in labor does it cost GM to build a car with all of these UAW regulations than other automakers? If GM is going to sell inexpensive products, they can't expect to make huge profits on every car sold, but rather make a little profit on a huge amount of cars. And can GM update their old plants with new lines? However, I think the NO termination policy is a little harsh. Sure, keeping it there might not be totally destructive, so long as GM has room to move if they are having troubles with employees or a lack of sales.

I think you need to understand the situation a little more before you make blanket statements like "If GM would just spend a little more, they could make a good car like BMW does..." Do you seriously think, with the way GM has been vomiting money for a decade, that they wouldn't jump on any freaking chance they could to turn a little profit?

I never said that GM would make cars to rival BMW if they invested a little money. And you are right, I don't have that great of an understanding of the situation. I am trying to learn more. I am sorry.

Thank the UAW for 70% of GM's problems. The other 30% are solely down to crappy management.

I do notice that GM's product line was generally blamed for a lack of success on these boards here, yet once we get to discussing the evil unions, they suddenly become the onyl problem GM faces.

 

[YSSMAN]

How much more in labor does it cost GM to build a car with all of these UAW regulations than other automakers? If GM is going to sell inexpensive products, they can't expect to make huge profits on every car sold, but rather make a little profit on a huge amount of cars. And can GM update their old plants with new lines?

Current estimates put the extra overhead costs somewhere between $1000-1500 per vehicle going straight to the UAW-mandated health care coverage alone. This of course doesn't include the amount of money GM wastes on poor-performing employees, thick-headed managers, oh yeah, and the $100-300 million dollars GM loses every day the UAW is on strike.

Give a look at Toyota or Honda's American plants and things are a bit different. They pay their workers a little more, sure, but their insurance and other benefits aren't nearly as outrageous as what the UAW demands, and furthermore, they actually hire/fire on the performance of the individual. Therefore, Toyota and Honda both end up paying less money to build Camrys and Accords here than anywhere else.

...And yes, GM can update the lines to shift products around; Its what they're doing on Oshwa, Ontario right now, changing the old W-Body lines to Zeta lines in time for the debut of the Camaro, Impala, un-named Buick, among others.

But, that doesn't guarantee anything...

Good or bad workers, the UAW causes more trouble than good. Most Michiganders feel that way, and I'm pretty certain of it. Sure, I'm proud of the fact that Lake Orion and Lansing are two of the best-performing automotive plants in the country, furthermore, I couldn't be more proud that they build the stellar CTS and Lambada vehicles down the road from here... But when you see those guys and gals walking out in their UAW tees with outrageous claims, you've got to cringe just a bit... Particularly when there are millions of people across this state who would kill just to have a job in the first place.

 

[Philly]

Current estimates put the extra overhead costs somewhere between $1000-1500 per vehicle going straight to the UAW-mandated health care coverage alone. This of course doesn't include the amount of money GM wastes on poor-performing employees, thick-headed managers, oh yeah, and the $100-300 million dollars GM loses every day the UAW is on strike.

Give a look at Toyota or Honda's American plants and things are a bit different. They pay their workers a little more, sure, but their insurance and other benefits aren't nearly as outrageous as what the UAW demands, and furthermore, they actually hire/fire on the performance of the individual. Therefore, Toyota and Honda both end up paying less money to build Camrys and Accords here than anywhere else.

Do we know why the UAW demansd so much more from the Big Three? Why isn't Toyota plagued with insurance and job security BS?

And I read from BBC that this strike is the result a contract renewal that didn't meet it's deadline. GM is supposedly bringing some insurance deal to the table that would put some of the health care burden on the UAW. They didn't think the strike would last longer than a week or so.

 

[Joey D]

I'm not to big on Michigan politics quite yet. Hopefully that will change at some point.

The state is ran by a rather idiotic Canadian Democrat with a giant mole. How she was voted in is something that will boggle me till the end of time, kind of like how Bush was voted in a second time. Her solution to the state's budget problem is hike up tuition for college student so we can't afford to go to school thus getting a good job, and her other solution is to raise income tax over 1% so people have to spend more of the money they do not have.

Thanks for clearing that up. It has been the norm for a while that people without a college education go to service jobs or factory jobs. Just because it is a factory job makes me feel like they really are working to the level of their education. You aren't going to be able to fill a factory with college grads unless they are operating technology or something that requires a lot of skill. As for laziness, there isn't much you can do for them.

I do not disagree people without college educations typically work in factories but many of them only make $10-$15 an hour for doing so....a UAW guy gets paid twice that. Hell when I was at GM there was one UAW employee who started right after high school and made $41 an hour, with his "overtime" he made way more then boss...a man with a masters in mechanical engineering and a bachelors in business. Go figure that one out.

Does GM voice their opinions of what the union does to its workers? I'm sure GM and the union could go into negotiations about that and the union probably wouldn't be idiot enough to strike just because GM wants to talk. Hopefully they would take GM's requests like men and not overreact and go riot.

GM is trying to talk and negotiate but the UAW doesn't want to compromise, they need to understand that in Michigan, during this economic time, you can't make demands like they are doing.

How well did those prototypes work? If they had unskilled and lazy workers who did not really care, wouldn't the prototypes with hand built parts be far more vulnerable than ones where the parts are done by machines?

Let me just say I watched a prototype Colorado catch on fire because someone didn't wire the system correctly. Also on many other projects I saw pieces that didn't fit correctly or were sloppily made. Now I understand this is some of the designers fault, but the union tradesmen should have gone back to the designer and said x part isn't working I think we should do this. But no they leave it and it goes off to production looking like crap.

 

[Joey D]

Well I'll be damned, I should have turned on the news sooner.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/26/news/companies/uaw_gm_deal/index.htm?postversion=2007092604

 

[Duke]

And here are some of the relevant bits from that article that explain just how much it is the UAW that pushed GM into this mess:

While Gettelfinger would not discuss any terms of the agreement, he had said shortly after the strike began that the union was open to setting up the trust funds with assets provided by the company.

But Gettelfinger said Monday the union needed job guarantees for its members before it could agree to the cost savings sought by the company to return its operations to profitability.

Ummmm, where precisely does the UAW expect the money to come from, if not from PROFITS? Like I said, flogging a dying horse only works for so long. It seems they lack a basic grasp of economics.

But details of such guarantees, and whether they are in the form of promises to invest in U.S. plants and build new vehicles at domestic plants, or the type of income guarantees that were present in past contracts, were not immediately known.

But it will not come cheap for GM. The automaker will have to pay tens of billions of dollars of cash, stock and debt into the trust fund to cover those future costs.

Again, more horse flogging: "We don't care where you get the money, as long as you pay it to us." Smart... NOT.

Those savings that are apparently included in this deal are seen as a key to helping the U.S. industry return to the profitability it needs to invest in the development of new cars and trucks that can attract American consumers once again.

But of course, the UAW has just proven that they don't give a crap about the company's profitability. They've got their heads in the sand about GM's falling market share. GM has 'always' sold a lot of cars, so of course, they will continue forever to sell a lot of cars, and UAW workers can continue to squeeze them for it. Talk about short sighted. Just like there will always be oil, or always be rainforest, or whatever. We're at the point where we need to develop alternative thinking, and it's just beginning to happen. For the UAW, it needed to start happening 30 years ago, because their cash cow ain't as big as the whole planet is.

All three UAW-represented automakers have been struggling with ongoing losses and declining market share in recent years. Collectively they have seen their market share fall to only about half of U.S. sales, as they closed plants and offer large buyout packages to UAW members in an effort to get their capacity in line with reduced demand for their products.

GM itself has seen its share fall from just under a third of the U.S. market as recently as 1995 to just under a quarter of the market so far this year. The automaker fell below 30 percent of U.S. market share in 1998, the year a strike at two UAW locals in Flint, Mich., shutdown most of its North American operations for seven weeks. It has never gotten back above that benchmark. It is unlikely to have lost any sales from this short strike, though.

But GM lost nearly $13 billion on its core North American auto operations in 2005 and 2006 combined, as it paid more than 30,000 UAW members up to $140,000 each to leave the company.

Lets put this in a little perspective. Here's a little information from another article -

Base [UAW] wages average about $28 an hour. GM officials say the average reaches $39.68 an hour, including base pay, cost-of-living adjustments, night-shift premiums, overtime, holiday and vacation pay. Health-care, pension and other benefits average another $33.58 an hour, GM says.

I'm a professional; an architect. I have a Master's degree after 7 years of college. I've got more than 15 years of professional experience in my field.

I make about $35 an hour, including my benefits package, vacation, holidays, etc. These guys are making DOUBLE what I make! And there are many times more autoworkers than there are architects in the country.

And $140,000 each in buyout to get rid of unneeded employees! That's TWO YEARS of MY salary in severance pay! My employers can fire me for the cost of two weeks' pay! It's ridiculous... and still they don't feel they're getting enough:

But GM workers say striking for job security is a working-class issue important to America. Noting the U.S. middle class is shrinking, Fort Wayne labor leader Zent said: "I don't believe America as a whole finds that acceptable. The growing number of working poor we have are barely able to stay ahead. We have to find a way to keep good jobs in this country."

Hrm. Has the thought even remotely begun to cross their minds that pricing themselves out of competition, then forcing the US automakers to hire them, thereby killing their own employers with excessive demands, just MIGHT not be the best way to keep good jobs in the US? I mean, cheese-and-rice, are these guys idiots, or are they just corrupt? Or BOTH?

Today, the number of UAW retirees and surviving spouses collecting benefits from the big three automakers - about 540,000 - outnumbers the active members working at the three automakers by three to one.

And here we have it: the Social Security catastrophe in a nutshell.

 

[vladimir]

Quite right, but as of right now, GM has gotten it sorted out to where it isn't as much of a problem as it had been before. Sure, we could get on the socialized medicine wagon like everyone else, but most sensible Americans would prefer not to. I really don't think any kind of governmental med program would help GM much at all, particularly when you start to consider the taxes required to fund it.

it certainly would burden society as a whole, but it might be better able to take care of it than a single company...
however, its certainly not something that would really change the situation of health care as a whole, but thats a different topic.

Personally, I'd say GM builds better cars than a lot of other companies out there; Dependability and other satisfaction surveys prove it. The problem is, the media has built up such a negative drive towards these companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler) that many people aren't able to see these wonderful new products. Not knowing about how good the Saturn Aura is, or how the GMT900 is cheaper and more efficient than the Tundra (not to mention better at everything else).

i'm not saying they're building bad cars. from my impression american cars are affordable and reliable.

its ironic, though, that you mention the saturn aura, since that has been designed in germany as far as i know, since its based on the opel vectra.

Market share loss, I assume, is mostly due to shifts in trends and what the companies offer. Up until a few years ago, American companies were really only focused on trucks, Toyota and Honda making cars, they were poised to win as the gas prices rose... But they had trucks to, and seeing that GM/Ford/Chrysler had an opportunity to win back, they started making things smaller and more "interesting" to draw attention away.

thats exactly what i mean, they built the wrong cars. and that has nothing to do with the unions, these are mistakes by the management...

The problem is that everyone is building better and better vehicles and it is becoming harder and harder to bring out a new product and keep it on top for any length of time. What the Americans have learned is that they must make a distinctive product (see 300C, Fusion) that packs in a good amount of value in order to win in a given market.

...Its really all a big mess, but really what it comes down to is having the American companies prove once again that they can build stellar products at a decent price, furthermore, products that are without a doubt better than the competition...

Between the three of them, GM is doing the best as of now.

i think they still have got a lot to catch up to, though. if you look at the worldwide market, the europeans sell their cars around the world, the japanese sell their cars around the world...only the americans really struggle to do that. that might have been ok as long as they had their own market for themselves...

on this years IAA the crowd seemed to be more interested in korean, chinese and east european cars than in US products.

 

[Philly]

I do not disagree people without college educations typically work in factories but many of them only make $10-$15 an hour for doing so....a UAW guy gets paid twice that. Hell when I was at GM there was one UAW employee who started right after high school and made $41 an hour, with his "overtime" he made way more then boss...a man with a masters in mechanical engineering and a bachelors in business. Go figure that one out.

Wait, $41 an hour? Starting? That is quite a bit over the top. I would say start at $20 and go up to $30-35 tops for the most "senior" employees. You can't lower wages too low. I worked with some guys and few made over $16 an hour, and I believe $20 was the max. True, they may have done drugs or had poor money management skills, but one worker was living with his boss in a trailer park and the other lived in a basement. The only car between the three was some old beater truck. Wages need to be reasonable, but not too high as it seems like what happens here. Maybe I should work there sometime. I'd probably make a lot of money.

GM is trying to talk and negotiate but the UAW doesn't want to compromise, they need to understand that in Michigan, during this economic time, you can't make demands like they are doing.

Sounds like poor business. The idea of a contract and negotiations is that both companies work together to reach an agreement that is acceptable to both parties.

Let me just say I watched a prototype Colorado catch on fire because someone didn't wire the system correctly. Also on many other projects I saw pieces that didn't fit correctly or were sloppily made. Now I understand this is some of the designers fault, but the union tradesmen should have gone back to the designer and said x part isn't working I think we should do this. But no they leave it and it goes off to production looking like crap.

I pretty much agree. The workers should be able to point out that x doesn't fit with y, but not much more. If you are asking them to do anything more than say "hey, these don't fit, what do I do?" you may be in trouble because, well, designing is the designer's job and the workers are not designers.

 

[YSSMAN]

its ironic, though, that you mention the saturn aura, since that has been designed in germany as far as i know, since its based on the opel vectra.

Generally speaking, none of that really matters anymore to GM. AFAIK, they are going to be the only company who has a truly "global" view in that you will be able to buy the same car, albeit slightly altered, in the US, UK, Germany, China, Japan, and Australia. Instead of making 10,000 variants of a somewhat similar platform or 30,000 different variants of what is essentially the same model, they'll make one across the board.

The Epsilon/II cars were some of the first (Vectra, 9-3, Malibu, G6, Aura), followed by the current expansion of the Zeta program (Commodore, Lumina, G8, VXR8), the Delta II chassis, and lastly (as of now) Alpha.

Doing so reduces part costs, increases profitability, (in theory) increases quality, etc. My guess is that if it works, we'll see much the same from Ford and Toyota in the near future.

 

[Joey D]

Wait, $41 an hour? Starting? That is quite a bit over the top. I would say start at $20 and go up to $30-35 tops for the most "senior" employees. You can't lower wages too low. I worked with some guys and few made over $16 an hour, and I believe $20 was the max. True, they may have done drugs or had poor money management skills, but one worker was living with his boss in a trailer park and the other lived in a basement. The only car between the three was some old beater truck. Wages need to be reasonable, but not too high as it seems like what happens here. Maybe I should work there sometime. I'd probably make a lot of money.

No they start around $20, which is quite a bit. Hell I work 40 hours a week go to school full time and only make $10 an hour and I probably have a much harder job...although that isn't saying a whole lot.

I pretty much agree. The workers should be able to point out that x doesn't fit with y, but not much more. If you are asking them to do anything more than say "hey, these don't fit, what do I do?" you may be in trouble because, well, designing is the designer's job and the workers are not designers.

They should but never did, they would leave it and just say "not my problem".

 

[Philly]

No they start around $20, which is quite a bit. Hell I work 40 hours a week go to school full time and only make $10 an hour and I probably have a much harder job...although that isn't saying a whole lot.

You are also a college student. I'm guessing that you are not totally financially independent. Try and support a family at $10 an hour. Maybe $10 per hour would be decent for a spouse's job when the other parent works. Factory workers need that money. Go to much lower and we are back to the industrial era where the whole family works 80 hour weeks and still can't afford a box on the street.

 

[Joey D]

Yes I am a college student, but unlike a majority of the UAW employees I actually have some college education and will have a degree within a year. My point is your rate of pay should be on par with the amount of education you have.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Try and support a family at $10 an hour.

My parents already did that.

 

[Philly]

Yes I am a college student, but unlike a majority of the UAW employees I actually have some college education and will have a degree within a year. My point is your rate of pay should be on par with the amount of education you have.

It also should depend on the work you are doing. You should not get paid more than the guy next to you if both of you are doing the same exact, unskilled thing. If you are paying to use a person's skills, then yes, pay should reflect education. Physical labor, not so much.

My parents already did that.

How did they do? How many hours worked per week?

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

How did they do? How many hours worked per week?

It could be a lot better, but it's not the worst. We live in a pretty good neighborhood. And each of them work about 40-48 hours per week.


I think a $12 starting wage would be pretty fair, especially with the benefits it seems the UAW employees get.

 

[Joey D]

Looks like the contract is on the right track

First GM plant ratifies UAW contract

The first batch of UAW workers have ratified the newly negotiated contract with GM, a possible sign that other union members will be following suit. Hourly employees at GM's Lansing Grand River plant voted in the new contracts in what's believed to be a landslide decision. Lansing's UAW rep Chris "Tiny" Sherwood wasn't willing to give exact numbers because of fears it could influence votes at the other GM factories but revealed workers "approved the agreement by a wide margin."

The new deal negotiated between GM and the UAW following the controversial strikes last week will see the establishment of a new health care trust that will hand over close to $50 billion worth of GM retiree health care liabilities to the unions. The contract also guarantees future vehicle assembly at most of GM's plants as well as the introduction of a two-tier wage system differentiating new staff and veterans.

The UAW has set an October 10th deadline for the rest of the members to hold their votes.

 

[YSSMAN]

For those who don't know, I believe that is the UAW plant that builds the CTS, STS, SRX, Outlook, Enclave, and Acadia...