Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Rage Racer]

The situation is now hotter than ever. It's hardly remembered why was started and when it was Euromaidan. 26 dead and over 800 wounded by now (from the both sides). Latest news:
http://rt.com/news/weapons-protesters-kiev-police-745/
The rebels have captured over 1500 guns from military and SBU (Security Service of Ukraine) warehouses. 🤬 is getting serious. The officials now call their actions a counter-terrorist operation.

 

[Dennisch]

If this not gets resolved fast it will turn into a civil war. Let's wait and see what the army does and which side they choose.

 

[Keef]

The officials now call their actions a counter-terrorist operation.

Governments always label anybody who threatens their authority as terrorists. The only place government derive their authority is through force, whether it be weapons or scare tactics or propaganda.

 

[PeterJB]

What's actually going on? Has it got anything to do with the EU?

 

[Dennisch]

What's actually going on? Has it got anything to do with the EU?

Part of the population wants the country to steer towards a more European minded future and the other part wants to look at Russia.

There is footage of an armoured car trying to break through the barriers. As it tries to do so it is being bombarded with molotovs. I don't think those inside survived that.

 

[Rage Racer]

If this not gets resolved fast it will turn into a civil war. Let's wait and see what the army does and which side they choose.

The army is not yet involved. There's some contraditionary info. Some sources say that the army is "with the people" (which means the rebels). My friend from Kiev told me so. If it really is, the government with its 4,000 Berkut troops in the whole country won't stand a chance. And in Ternopol, the local Berkut units surrendered without a fight and joined the rebels.
But... there's an info that Pavel Lebedev (the Defence Minister of Ukraine) has ordered to send the 25th paratroopers brigade (~500 soldiers) from Dnepropetrovsk to Kiev. Sounds serious.

Governments always label anybody who threatens their authority as terrorists.

Yes, that's what I mean.

What's actually going on? Has it got anything to do with the EU?

Almost nothing to do with the EU now. It's no more "Euromaidan". Now it's all about overthrowing Yanukovich and his government.

 

[PeterJB]

Ah, another classic east-west conflict.

 

[dsgerbc]

Almost nothing to do with the EU now. It's no more "Euromaidan". Now it's all about overthrowing Yanukovich and his government.

This is correct. It stopped being about EU some time late in November.

Ah, another classic east-west conflict.

Not really.

 

[Dennisch]

The protesters want the government gone because it steers too much to Russia, is it not?

Therefor PeterJB is right.

 

[Rage Racer]

The protesters want the government gone because it steers too much to Russia, is it not?

No, they want it because they had enough from Yanuk. The government corruption, abuse of power, violation of human rights and terrible infrastructure in most regions (even worse than the Russian) are the real causes why people want to change things. The Russian media is butthurt and tells it like they are rusophobic and hired by the West. But what I actually hear from those people is "We are not against you, Russians. We are just frazzled out by the life here!".

 

[dsgerbc]

The protesters want the government gone because it steers too much to Russia, is it not?

The protesters want government gone because it used violent force on a peaceful protest for the first time since Ukraine gained independence.

 

[LeMansAid]

Really quite sad after such an impressively resolute and powerful, yet peaceful protest and demand for change a few years ago.

 

[Rage Racer]

^And memes. After casualties like this, jokes about the "medieval warriors" and "Call of Duty: Modern Maidan" are no longer funny.

There is footage of an armoured car trying to break through the barriers. As it tries to do so it is being bombarded with molotovs. I don't think those inside survived that.

That BTR crew has survived, the media says. But that was really close.

 

[JMoney]

It doesn't matter if a government is crap, the people have no right to overthrow it when they can change it in the next election. I hope Russia gets involved, stops the rebels, and stabilizes Ukraine, because if it doesn't this will probably end up like Egypt.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The protesters want government gone because it used violent force on a peaceful protest for the first time since Ukraine gained independence.

That is one of the reasons, but it is not the inciting incident. To suggest it was is patently wrong.

Ukrainians are divided over their country's future. They have a choice between aligning with the European Union, or reaffirming their ties to Russia, but they cannot have both. The government chose Russia, which has not gone down well with the population.

But this is not as simple as the people wanting one thing and the government doing exactly the opposite. Large parts of eastern Ukraine are dependent upon Russia to sustain the local economy. For example, a lot of trains that are built in the east of the country are sold to Russia. Despite the benefits of joining with the EU, there is a genuine concern that it will come at the expense of others - in the above example, the Russians might start buying trains from someone else. Conversely, growing closer to Russia will benefit some Ukrainians, like those train builders, but not others.

 

[Carlos]

Just saw some disturbing images on the news, it showed some protestors getting shot down who were getting towards the 'police' behind some sort of protection. They said it happened just a few hours ago.

I really wish this doesn't escalate any further..

 

[Dotini]

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew

Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred.

http://poetry.eserver.org/light-brigade.html

 

[Rage Racer]

Latest news:
Over 35 dead by now
The police is getting armed with lethal guns.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew

Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death

Rode the six hundred.

If you could refrain from dumbing a complex cultural, socio-economic and political situation down into a simple us-versus-them metaphor for the sake of quoting classical poetry, I am sure everyone will benefit. It's not clever.

 

[Dotini]

If you could refrain from dumbing a complex cultural, socio-economic and political situation down into a simple us-versus-them metaphor for the sake of quoting classical poetry, I am sure everyone will benefit. It's not clever.

We've got to start somewhere if we are to understand this mess. I'd spent the last half hour reading the wiki on Ukraine and studying the Ukraine atlas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Ukraine

It's easy to see Ukraine is the largest country wholly within Europe, and has an incredibly ancient and complex history, replete with many invasions. It cannot be wholly inapproriate to recall the British adventure in the Crimean War, and to post a map of linguistic distribution.

Some basic questions to address would be the extent of foreign involvement versus domestic constituencies to the crisis.

We know the BBC has several teams on the ground in Kiev. I've been listening to them all night.

 

[Rage Racer]

The worst thing is - the rebels are out of control. None of their so-called leaders - Klichko, Yatsenyuk, Tyagnibok - can control those people. They arranged a truce with the government, but it was broken by the radicals (the "right wing").

I hope Russia gets involved, stops the rebels, and stabilizes Ukraine, because if it doesn't this will probably end up like Egypt.

Putin said he doesn't intend to get involved.
Besides... what do you think it may look like? The Evil Imperial army invades the sovereign country to kick asses of the rebels? That will make the world say "WTF?" on the background of the Olympics. Remember the 2008 South Ossetian conflict and the informational warfare later?

@Dotini
Most of the eastern regions were Russian territories earlier, but were given to Ukraine by the Soviets (some were during or after the 1917-22 Civil War, Crimea was given by Khrustschev in 1956), that's why there are so many Russians living there (especially in Crimea - 58.3% of the population are Russians and 24.3% are Ukrainians, and Russian is the main language for 91% of the locals).
The eastern Ukraine - Kharkov, Donetsk, Poltava, etc. - is quiet now, small riots occur but they get suppressed quickly. Most of the population are loyal to the government, and local civilians say they are ready to resist the Maidan attacks.
There's a real possibility that the country will split up in the western and the eastern parts (with the capital being in Kharkov probably).

 

[dsgerbc]

That is one of the reasons, but it is not the inciting incident. To suggest it was is patently wrong.

I think a lot of people in the West are being mislead by the media, which sells the story as "East vs West" cause they expect it to sell better. Presenting this as a fight over closer ties with Russia or EU is oversimplification.

The story of the people revolting against corrupt government, that since being elected significantly tilted the balance of power in its favor and used violent force on its own people for the first time in decades - is a harder story to sell.

I repeat, joining the EU or staying with Russia is a MINOR issue now. Sure, there might be some protesters who are there because of it, the majority isn't. Source: my cousin, who used to go to Maidan every other day before it turned deadly. Cannot get through to him today, so I hope he stays out of it.

 

[Dotini]

I think a lot of people in the West are being mislead by the media, which sells the story as "East vs West" cause they expect it to sell better. Presenting this as a fight over closer ties with Russia or EU is oversimplification.

The story of the people revolting against corrupt government, that since being elected significantly tilted the balance of power in its favor and used violent force on its own people for the first time in decades - is a harder story to sell.

I repeat, joining the EU or staying with Russia is a MINOR issue now. Sure, there might be some protesters who are there because of it, the majority isn't. Source: my cousin, who used to go to Maidan every other day before it turned deadly. Cannot get through to him today, so I hope he stays out of it.

No doubt there is plenty of domestic government corruption and oppression.

But equally there is no doubt that the particular interests and strong nationalism at work within the borders of Ukraine are messed up with particular interests and nationalism from well beyond those borders. Donietsk and Lviv are separated by much more than just 1000 km. Eastern Ukraine has strong ties with Russia, and harbors ideas of splitting the Ukraine with the eastern part becoming part of Russia. Western Ukraine is much more independent and pro-European (and definitely against Yanukovytch - who comes from the eastern Ukraine).

 

[dsgerbc]

That's all true, but it has been like that for twenty years and didn't cause anything major. It's like Quebec independence movement etc. If anything, EU's weak-to-nonexistent pressure on the Ukrainian government is turning a lot of people off the whole Europe thing.

 

[Dotini]

That's all true, but it has been like that for twenty years and didn't cause anything major. It's like Quebec independence movement etc. If anything, EU's weak-to-nonexistent pressure on the Ukrainian government is turning a lot of people off the whole Europe thing.

Our ambassador recently admitting saying "**** the EU", with regard to its handling of the Ukraine problem. That's code for "Stand aside, little brothers, and watch this! We (yes, the US) are going to step in and do your work for you."

Our doddering old war hero, John McCain, recently gurgled some threats of sanctions!

 

[Liquid]

Our ambassador recently admitting saying "**** the EU", with regard to its handling of the Ukraine problem. That's code for "Stand aside, little brothers, and watch this! We (yes, the US) are going to step in and do your work for you."

Our doddering old war hero, John McCain, recently gurgled some threats of sanctions!

Please tell me this is untrue and that the US is going to stay at home.

 

[Dotini]

Please tell me this is untrue and that the US is going to stay at home.

In truth, the future is not set in stone. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Pagey279]

Violent protesters mentality continues to baffle me, it almost always seems to be along the lines of "I'm angry at the government, so what I'm going to do is attack innocent police officers." These very police officers a couple of weeks ago would have come to the aid of these protesters if they were attacked, raped, burgled etc. Yet now it's the police being attacked by the very people they are meant to be keeping safe.

You are angry at the government, that's fine. Why attack innocent men and women just because they are wearing a police uniform? You see it in nearly every violent protest, the ones in England a few years back for example. Baffling.

 

[Sanji Himura]

The police and the press is often times the closest thing to government authority that common people have to redress their grievances, @Pagey279. But as Plato said, "The punishment which the wise suffer who refuse to take part in the government, is to live under the government of worse men." When both push an agenda, this is often times a result of that corruption.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It cannot be wholly inapproriate to recall the British adventure in the Crimean War, and to post a map of linguistic distribution.

Perhaps not, but quoting "The Charge of the Light Brigade" *is* inappropriate, given that it has no context in this situation.