Russian Invasion of Ukraine

[Dotini]

Perhaps not, but quoting "The Charge of the Light Brigade" *is* inappropriate, given that it has no context in this situation.

You don't disagree that recalling the British adventure in the Crimean War is appropriate.
But you say that quoting Charge of the Light Brigade is inappropriate. Perhaps you were not aware that Crimea is part of Ukraine? And that the fateful charge of the Light Brigade took place in what is today Ukraine?

And are not the British making yet another, so far only rhetorical, charge into Ukraine, by supporting the EU-leaning protesters? By listening to and watching the BBC reporters, it's clear to see where their sympathies lay. The British and EU position most strongly supports the protesters over the government, and some are already calling for regime change backed up by sanctions. I'm sure McCain wants drones and boots on the ground.

I respectfully submit that this is sufficient context for quoting the poetry of the Light Brigade.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

"The Charge of the Light Brigade" is about a group of soldiers who willingly ride to their deaths without a second thought or question. They do not necessarily understand what their orders are meant to achieve, but accept that they do not need to understand them in order to carry then out.

The fact that it takes place in Crimea is beside the point. It could take place on Pluto and still have the same meaning. There is no metaphorical or rhetorical context to it, because this is not about foreign intervention.

The situation in the Ukraine is the culmination of a series of complex social, political, cultural and economic factors as a nation tries to decide its future when there is no immediately-obvious solution that satisfies everyone equally. Like I said, this is not a case of the people wanting one thing and the government doing another. Attempting to portray it that way is reckless.

 

[Rage Racer]

Perhaps you were not aware that Crimea is part of Ukraine? And that the fateful charge of the Light Brigade took place in what is today Ukraine?

Well, at the time of the Crimean War, Crimea was a Russian territory. Actually, it was never a Ukrainian territory untill 1956. (And in 1991, the first RF president Yeltsin was authorized to take it back, but somehow he didn't do it.)
And today, Crimea is a Maidan-free area (as I told before, 91% of the population are Russian-speaking). The governor of Crimean Oblast even said "If the situation continues getting too bad, we'll talk about joining Russia".

So I think the Crimean War, the Light Brigade and the Thin Red Line have nothing to do here. That war was held against the Russian Empire, and it was not only in Crimea, but also in the north (White Sea) and east (Kamchatka).

But equally there is no doubt that the particular interests and strong nationalism at work within the borders of Ukraine are messed up with particular interests and nationalism from well beyond those borders. Donietsk and Lviv are separated by much more than just 1000 km.

There is also a religion difference.
Western Ukrainians are mostly Catholic Christians, and almost all Eastern are Orthodox.

Many of the Western are also rusophobic. The West and the East have whole different views on relations with RF and EU.
The Western don't want the country to turn into Belarus with a dictator in power and no freedom of speech.
And the Eastern don't want Ukraine to become something like the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) with oppression and discrimination of the Russian-speaking population.

Division of the country in two may not satisfy both sides, but it may be the only peaceful and bloodless way of resolving this crisis. The West associates with EU and the East joins the Customs Union of Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. And we'll see who gets better.

 

[Dotini]

The fact that it takes place in Crimea is beside the point. It could take place on Pluto and still have the same meaning. There is no metaphorical or rhetorical context to it, because this is not about foreign intervention.

There are particular interests and nationalism operating within Ukraine that are messed up with particular interests and nationalism that extend far beyond Ukraine's borders. Foreign involvement is assuredly among the many factors you so rightly listed.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And in quoting "The Charge of the Light Brigade", you have ignored many of those key issues.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Actually, @prisonermonkeys, @Dotini isn't too far off the mark. You can't discuss Ukraine without Russia and it's national expansion. The pro-government forces are supporting trade with Russia, and naturally when the olympics are over, Putin will strike West and South. Why South? The short answer, Georgia. Putin got egg on its face when he was forced to withdraw after the 2008 Five Day War. That war should be a clear sign that Putin is trying to regain the former Soviet Republics, and if the EU isn't careful, it will eat up them as well.

 

[Dotini]

I need to be more sensitive to the needs of all the individuals involved in the discussion. Quoting the doomed Light Brigade intervention without qualifying that with the domestic stewpot of discontent was probably a bridge too far. We have a long way to go to understand the situation in Ukraine. There are no good simpflications.

 

[Sanji Himura]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/18/watch-live-the-crisis-in-ukraine/

A live stream if anyone cares. So far as of post time, it is quiet.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Tonight on the ABC Nightly News they reported that Viktor Yanukovych is accused of corruption and is looking to Putin for “cover”.

 

[Rage Racer]

You can't discuss Ukraine without Russia and it's national expansion. The pro-government forces are supporting trade with Russia, and naturally when the olympics are over, Putin will strike West and South. Why South? The short answer, Georgia. Putin got egg on its face when he was forced to withdraw after the 2008 Five Day War. That war should be a clear sign that Putin is trying to regain the former Soviet Republics, and if the EU isn't careful, it will eat up them as well.

I thought you know that the age of colonization and land conquest is already over.
In 21st century, you can't just invade a country and force it to be a part of yours. "Territorial expansion" and spreading the influence (what the West is trying to do on Ukraine, too) are different things.
Belarus is 100% (or, maybe 99,9%) friendly with RF - having Russian as the second official language and Russian military radars located there, but I don't see it being a part of RF.

And regarding the 2008 conflict with Georgia, that was a peacekeeping operation in the first place. The military objects inside Georgia were attacked to make damage to the Georgian army and prevent it from further agression.
Do you think that invasion to a sovereign country just for overthrowing its government is acceptable in 21st century? Ah, maybe you do, because this is exactly what the US did on Saddam Hussaine in Iraq.

 

[Jet Badger]

Many of the Western are also rusophobic. The West and the East have whole different views on relations with RF and EU.
The Western don't want the country to turn into Belarus with a dictator in power and no freedom of speech.
And the Eastern don't want Ukraine to become something like the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) with oppression and discrimination of the Russian-speaking population.

I can tell you for sure that there is zero oppresion against russian-speaking or any other cultural minority here. Even though given the historic events from the past 100 years, we certainly do have a solid reason to dislike Russia.

 

[Rage Racer]

I can tell you for sure that there is zero oppresion against russian-speaking or any other cultural minority here.

...Well, this is what they think. And we too, when speaking about Baltic countries, imagine the parades of Nazi veterans in Latvia and Estonia (which also occur in the west of Ukraine too, particulary Lviv, where they honor the SS "Galicia" division) and WWII memory scandals like this. Maybe just an emerged stereotype.

Even though given the historic events from the past 100 years, we certainly do have a solid reason to dislike Russia.

...as the successor of the Soviet Union. I understand that, because of the 50 year... hm... occupation.
The Western Ukrainians have the same view on the Soviet era. They see Russians as "occupants!11" and Jews as... just Jews.

 

[Sanji Himura]

I thought you know that the age of colonization and land conquest is already over.
In 21st century, you can't just invade a country and force it to be a part of yours. "Territorial expansion" and spreading the influence (what the West is trying to do on Ukraine, too) are different things.
Belarus is 100% (or, maybe 99,9%) friendly with RF - having Russian as the second official language and Russian military radars located there, but I don't see it being a part of RF.

And regarding the 2008 conflict with Georgia, that was a peacekeeping operation in the first place. The military objects inside Georgia were attacked to make damage to the Georgian army and prevent it from further agression.
Do you think that invasion to a sovereign country just for overthrowing its government is acceptable in 21st century? Ah, maybe you do, because this is exactly what the US did on Saddam Hussaine in Iraq.

Since you are from Russia, may I ask if your media regularly reports on your Prime Minister's background or if said background is a matter of public record?

At first that may seem as though it is an irrelevant question, but when you consider the fact that during the 2008 war, the President of Georgia only appeared on one program giving a warning on Putin's so called peace keeping mission, and that was all that the program in question covered during the conflict. Basically, all the American media covered during that span was the olympics, except for that program in question.

It definitely blurred the line between what our mainstream media has been feeding us Americans and what is really going on in the world.

 

[Rage Racer]

@Sanji Himura
I don't know how it works, but those events in Ossetia and Georgia were lighted intensively, displacing the Beijing Olympics from the screen. And today, this Maidan is seen on TV almost more often than the Games.

Meanwhile: Yanukovich has agreed to revert the Constitution to 2004, so Ukraine becomes a parliamentary republic again and the President's authority is now more limited (this is what the opposition wanted all this time). The President election is coming December 2014. An edition has been made to a law so the Lady Yu can be possibly released after all. And the "counter-terrorist operation" is now cancelled.

However, the Maidan protestors in Kiev are not yet going to retreat, and the riots in Western Ukraine are still not over.

 

[Sanji Himura]

They are not going to stop until either Ukraine has a pro-EU government or until Putin runs the country over either militarily or economically.

 

[Rage Racer]

@Sanji Himura
It's not that simple. And, as I and dsgerbc have told already - it's no more "Euromaidan". The rioting opposition (not those who are "peaceful protestors") is not really pro-EU. They are radical nationalists with Stepan Bandera as their icon. If they come in power, they will be discriminative to the Russian-speaking population and other minorities (Jews, Poles, etc). So the Eastern Ukrainians (most of which are Russian-speaking) will not tolerate this kind of government.
Even if the legal election occurs in December, and a non-nationalist candidate wins, the radicals will possibly start it all again.
The legal pro-EU and peaceful opposition does not control the radicals, but the radicals are those who have guns and strength, so they might be able to seize the power by violence. If that happens, the best possible consequence is division of the country in two (I already told why), and the worst is a full-scale civil war between the Western nationalists and the Eastern loyalists.

 

[Rage Racer]

Yulia Timoshenko is now released from the prison and intended to take part in the next president election.
Well, if she wins, she'll hopefully be accepted by the whole country (including the nationalists from the western regions). This is probably the best end for this story. But were all those victims necessary for Yanuk to change the situation for good?..

 

[Dotini]

http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/2...ers-regions-should-take-control#axzz2uAcrql3C
"Regional lawmakers in Ukraine's pro-Russian east are questioning the authority of the national parliament, amid concerns that the nation may be splitting in two.
A gathering of governors, provincial officials and legislators in Kharkiv approved a statement Saturday calling on regional authorities to take full responsibility for constitutional order on their territory.

Some called for forming volunteer units to protect against force by protesters from pro-European western regions. The assembly urged the army units deployed on their territories to maintain neutrality and protect ammunition depots.

The moves came after protesters took control of Ukraine's capital and parliament sought to oust the president and form a new government."

_______________

background info:

Transcript of the leaked Nuland-Pyatt call.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957

At one point, Pyatt says, "The problem is going to be Tyahnybok", who is a leader of the Svoboda party, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Party_of_Ukraine#Social-National_Party_of_Ukraine

 

[Rage Racer]

I've been talking to those people from Western Ukraine. Now I realize I was really wrong about them. This is informational warfare. Russian media LIES. It tells us that the Western Ukrainians are rusophobes, faschists, nazis and will kill anyone speaking Russian on their territory. A stereotype has been imposed on us. But anyone who wants to find out more about the "Right Sector" organization will find out that this is wrong.

Yanukovich is not a pro-Russian politician. He's a pro-money politician. The rebels have invaded his residence - Mezhygorye. And look what they found there: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/1007568.html
A "ship" bulding, lots of gold, antique items, a zoo, a greenhouse, boats and a retro car collection - and it was the state's money spent for that! Now people call it "the museum of corruption".

This photo is now a meme - "The golden bread loaf". The lettering is "Ministry of Justice of Ukraine"

And this is his son's car collection:

This is almost not shown on our TV.

 

[Keef]

I didn't think there was that much money in all of Ukraine.

 

[Dennisch]

Russian media LIES.

Now, I can't say I am really surprised.

 

[Keef]

Now, I can't say I am really surprised.

How did Russia go from being Soviet, to not, to being Soviet again? Is it just in their blood to do everything the dirty way?

 

[Dennisch]

How did Russia go from being Soviet, to not, to being Soviet again? Is it just in their blood to do everything the dirty way?

Old habits die hard.
Simple example is that the Russian broadcast of the Olympic opening did not show the 5th ring not opening.

 

[Rage Racer]

Any media lies sometime. I always knew that Putin's regime lies. But when they do it against the brother country...
Ukrainians are our brothers. And they always were. There are some people from Russia and even Belarus fighting on the side of the Right Sector. They are not against Russians, they are against the oppressive and thieving government.

The lying and thieving regimes won't stand for too long.

^Yanukovich, Lukashenko, Nazarbayev and the Extreme Level 4 - Putin.

Another lie on the Russian TV - "Oleg Tyahnibok, the leader of Svoboda party, intends to ban Russian language in Ukraine" -

check the video description.
But there's also another video with original speech of Tyahnibok in the Rada.

(however, you need to know Ukrainian or Russian to understand what's going on)
He never said anything like this, and his real words are "no oppression against Russians or any other national minorities".

 

[Igano]

I heave heard some very bad words about Timosenko, do they hold any ground? Like she is a multibillionaire that made the money with many favorable deals and had part in some shady business?

 

[Rage Racer]

Not yet confirmed but very likely to be true.

 

[Igano]

I hope they don't jump from Scylla to Charybdis (it's a Greek saying)...

 

[Dotini]

I hope they don't jump from Scylla to Charybdis (it's a Greek saying)...

...meaning to jump from one evil to another.

Obviously Ukraine is undergoing a revolution, the end of which is not in sight.
The elected central government is either out of control or dispersed. Protesters of many different sorts appear to rule the streets of the capital. Some protesters want more union with Europe, and others are nationalists. So the protesters are not a controlled force. Hastily ginned up interim government has issued edicts which are not accepted by some protesters nor by most of the people and authorities in the south and east, which still appears to be in control. Police and military seem to be resting on the sidelines awaiting developments. As a general rule, the advantage is with those who are in control of themselves, so with much of Ukraine out of control, the revolution could be accelerating.

In years past, Ukraine has been seen as a potential flashpoint for war between NATO and Russia. Armies of the western nations and of Russia are well advised to stay in their barracks and allow the Ukrainians to do what they need to do.

 

[Rage Racer]

However, the Right Sector sees her as the same evil as Yanukovich.
"When we heard first Yulia's words out of prison, we decided that it's not the time to remove the barricades on Maidan yet. They'll still be of some use."

^"PEOPLE DIED NOT FOR THIS"

 

[TenEightyOne]

I need to be more sensitive to the needs of all the individuals involved in the discussion. Quoting the doomed Light Brigade intervention without qualifying that with the domestic stewpot of discontent was probably a bridge too far. We have a long way to go to understand the situation in Ukraine. There are no good simpflications.

I see what you're saying, but I do agree with @prisonermonkeys that your quote seemed out of context.

Where I agree with you completely is that the situation is very complex and that the news coverage seems to be very 'pro' the uprising. The escaped President's personal possessions are being filmed at every opportunity and he's being continuously linked with Putin.

That's not to say that these reports aren't factual but for some reason the press don't seem interested in any balance, for them Kiev=Ukraine, and the whole of the Ukraine supports the revolution...but that just isn't right, not by a long chalk.