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I don’t think so but I’ll be watching closely, even hoping. Just kidding
Unconditional Love
- Thread starter Danoff
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- 746
- Newcastle NSW
This may be something that only a mother can feel, it may be me. I wouldn't say that I love them because I invested time with them, I loved them from the start so there was no time invested.
I can't say that there is nothing in the world that will change my mind on how I feel as it is impossible to think of all possible situations but as things stand right this moment in time there isn't anything that will change my mind ie there are no conditions on my love for them.
Love is an emotion that can't be quantified and we all feel it differently so there can be no right or wrong. For me putting conditions on love (say for a partner) is like having a pre-nup, you are insuring yourself emotionally/financially for the relationship to fail. I don't go into a relationship wondering if it will fail or what that person could do that could make it fail and make me change my mind.
There were a number of things that changed my mind - for obvious reasons I will not go into them here. But none of them were things that I thought about at the start and said to myself 'if he ever does this I will not love him'. People change, things/actions may not be an issue at a point in time in a relationship and then later those same things can become an issue and cause a relationship to fail and it may not even be the other person that has changed it could be you and how you feel towards those actions that have changed.
So I guess the only condition I have is that I don't change my mind and being female that is always my perogative
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I just want to say that I enjoy reading your posts on here, Wenders. Keep it up.
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Again, searching introspectively to try to prove the absence of unconditional love is hopeless if you haven't experienced something of the sort, in the first place. As Wenders says, Love isn't a logically quantifiable emotion. Not internally.
There's an analogy in science... where no observer can fully describe a closed system if they're embedded in it. The simple act of observation changes the equations. Merely stating the question: "What is love" automatically colors the answer. Trying to dissect love firsthand ensures that whatever answer you come up with will be false. Or will at least be colored by your experience of it. You feel it first, then your brain constructs justifications for your emotions.
Observing it secondhand in others doesn't give you the complete information on the person's state of mind, but you can be much more objective about it, and take into consideration all factors, social, psychological, physiological and chemical, that go into shaping the state of mind called "love".
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Why thank you
I'll do my best to keep adding my unique female perspective in this male dominated environment when I can.
Danoff
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9 months. Many people who adopt do not feel that sort of love right away. It might take them a few months... maybe 9.
Yea that's not unconditional love to me. If anything can change your mind - that is the condition, whether you've identified it up front or not.
Neither do I. But I'm aware that something can change my mind - whether I've identified it or not. You are too, as you've identified above. I think you've explained enough for me to know that your love is not unconditional. There are conditions by which you would change your mind - even if you haven't identified them.
This, by the way, is healthy. I think if you felt differently you might need help.
Yea I think this is really what proves it to me. You're using the word unconditional to mean "no pre-identified conditions". This is not what I would consider unconditional. If you unconditionally love some one - it means there are no conditions under which you would change your mind... ever. Since you did change your mind, I don't think it's possible to categorize it as unconditional.
Dotini
(Banned)
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246802/Record-number-women-arrested-violent-crimes.html
This source, unfamiliar to me, says UK women are arrested in record numbers for violent crimes. Perhaps Famine can spare us from belief in this.
Yours truly,
Dotini
This source, unfamiliar to me, says UK women are arrested in record numbers for violent crimes. Perhaps Famine can spare us from belief in this.
Yours truly,
Dotini
- 746
- Newcastle NSW
I think we have different interpretaions of unconditional.
I have placed no conditions on my love for my children. I may never agree with all things they do, they may really piss me off at times but my love for them doesn't change.
When I was married there were no conditions on my love, at the start of the relationship I never thought to myself - if he does this or that I will not love him - that would be a condition. And in fact it was my feelings that changed that then made certain actions/traits that had always been there become unacceptable to me.
I don't equate unconditional love the same as enduring love.
I don't appreciate you putting your interpretations on how you feel about your love on the way I feel about mine.
You see love in a different way to me and I accept that but you can not sit there and tell me I have conditions on my love for my children when I don't. There is nothing in this world that I can imagine that will change that.
I said before 'I can't say that there is nothing in the world that will change my mind on how I feel as it is impossible to think of all possible situations but as things stand right this moment in time there isn't anything that will change my mind ie there are no conditions on my love for them' because I am being honest and realistic and if I didn't you most likely would come back at me and say that I can't think possibly have gone though all possible scenarios that may change my mind. Just the same as you can't honestly say that if your wife cut your leg off and fed it to you that you wouldn't love her any more - if she did that you just may find that you still do love her no matter how absurd it may sound now. To me you have put the condition on my love to be - I will love you unless you do something really bad to annoy me - which then would be a condition. But that is not the way I feel.
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The definition you posted is the one Danoff is using. Your love for your husband is conditional because it changed. Unconditional love cannot change. If you still loved your husband despite what he did, that might be unconditional love. To love him and be unable to imagine not loving him, and then some time later not loving him is conditional love.
I think you're mixing the concept up with someone who is just picky, ie someone who won't fall in love with anyone unless that person has brown hair.
Your love for your children may be unconditional because it has not changed, as far as you've told us.
Danoff
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I'm sure we do. You seem to think that unconditional love can end... which it simply cannot. If your love ends, whatever ended it is the condition.
It's not a matter of whether you've placed conditions. It's a matter of whether any conditions might exist that would end it. If there are any circumstances that you could possibly imagine that would cause you not to love your children - then that is the condition.
Unless you still love him there were. Whatever ended it is the condition.
Me neither. Enduring love can exist without being unconditional. Unfortunately unconditional love must never end. Ever... under any... conditions.
Our disagreement has nothing to do with the way you feel. What we're arguing about is not how you feel but how you're using the word "unconditional". You're calling your love for your ex unconditional when, in fact, there were conditions that ended it.
It is very important that you understand the distinction I'm trying to make because it is the crux of this discussion. What I am trying to get at is the notion of loving someone in such a way as to never be able to change your mind... ever.... under any circumstances (circumstances including time).
I believe some people may have love for their children in this regard - I'm questioning whether this type of behavior is healthy. I also believe some people may have love for God in this manner. No matter what God does, no matter how many people he slaughters, no matter what atrocities he inflicts upon us - they will love him, until they die. I find this disturbing.
Also, I'm interested in evaluating the meaningfulness of unconditional (and, by extension, unearned) love vs. the meaningfulness of conditional love.
Dotini
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Noob616, thanks for that candid insight into your life. It takes a brave man to put his feelings and sensitivities on the line in front of his peers and complete unknowns. I feel you are right to be bugged. Elsewhere, I have ascribed feelings of alienation and estrangement from our families, friends and lovers to long-term social forces over which we have little or no control. This has aroused the ire of the Administrator, so I won't go there again. Even so, I feel you still have a fighting chance to improve the situation. You might start by spending an evening or three with Shakespeare's sonnets. There's loads of self-help books, and counselors have been proved to benefit many people in a similar situation.
With highest regards,
Dotini
Danoff
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Are you kidding me with this? Because I think love is not/should not be unconditional means I refuse to feel it? It means I must appraise, evaluate and analyze it?
All I'm doing here is attempting to understand the implications of the term "unconditional love". But somehow I'm heartless for trying. Why is it that using your head seems to be so incompatible feeling in so many people's minds?
Keef
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Maybe youre looking at the issue from the wrong end. Instead of thinkin about the other persons actions consider your own. If you were walking down the street with your wife and she was attacked by somebody with a weapon would you stand there and watch her get beat to death? Would you risk your life to defend her? Why? What about a casual friend? You say if a son or daughter became a murderer you would not love them. Does that mean you would watch them get killed and not have the urge to save them? If youre willing to risk your own life to save another, which is inherently illogical, you have to consider if that is unconditional. Life seems to be the ultimate condition.
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OK so now it seems we don't agree on what conditions are. If you sign a conditional contract for something the conditions that will break that contract are all laid out before you. And that is how I interpret having conditions on love - if you do such and such then my love for you will no longer exsit. There is nothing on this earth that I know that my children could do that will stop me loving them. NOTHING!
Actually it does. I feel love in a different way to you. There is no right or wrong in it. Whether is it is a male/female thing, a maternal thing or just the way I am, it is the way I feel.
Oh I understand what you are trying to say but I don't agree.
I am interested to know why you believe unconditional love would be unhealthy.
Not sure how you plan to do that if by your definition it doesn't exist.
I wouldn't say you are heartless for trying - maybe a bit heartless of you to not accept that others may feel it. You can't define love or how people feel it. It can often defy logic - believe me I know.
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I feel the same. Also, love and hate are not mutually exclusive IMO. E.g. you might hate your child for becoming an axe-wielding psycho-killer, but still love her/him at the same time. (That said, I'm not sure how I would react if that actually did happen, and I'm sure nobody knows that for sure in advance) The world is not black and white, but an infinite amount of shades of grey.
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I feel the same. Also, love and hate are not mutually exclusive IMO. E.g. you might hate your child for becoming an axe-wielding psycho-killer, but still love her/him at the same time. (That said, I'm not sure how I would react if that actually did happen, and I'm sure nobody knows that for sure in advance) The world is not black and white, but an infinite amount of shades of grey.
Herein lies the problem.
You can divorce someone and still feel some sort of love for them... send a husband to jail for beating yourself and your children, but still visit them in jail...
If your child becomes a psychopathic murderer, would you be willing to let someone else take them out, or would you force yourself to do the deed... in the same way you would take an old dog out back and shoot them when they get old? (sort of in the vein of "Of Mice and Men")
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And we haven't gotten to the looney tunes. People whose passionate love for someone or something causes a complete disconnect from reality... in which case they cannot perceive the existence of conditions or factors that would normally make them "fall out of love".
Danoff
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You're talking about a contract that reads "you will never, under any circumstances, change your mind". That's unconditional love. Can you sign that contract? I'll remind you about this:
Wenders
If you say your love is unconditional, you must absolutely know that you will never change your mind - because you have claimed that there are no conditions (and time is included in the set of all conditions) that will nullify your love.
You've already answered my question. Your love is not unconditional. You got upset with me for saying that, so above is my justification. You say at one point that it is unconditional, and then you say you don't know if you'll always feel that way. These two statements are incompatible. I'm forced to assume that you're not using "unconditional" strictly.
Prove it.
Because unconditional love requires staying with a drunken bastard who beats you every other night... for 20 years. Unconditional love requires saying "but I luuuuve hiiiiummmm" as the cops are hauling your husband away after he beat you to within an inch of your life. It requires you to stay with the woman who cheats on you over and over. More insidious, unconditional love is the ultimate lack of self esteem. It requires devaluing yourself to the point where there is nothing that someone can do to you, or to the others that you love, that makes them unworthy of your love. And if such a person can be worthy of your love - what is it worth? Nothing.
I'm familiar.
Edit: I've been thinking about your position a bit this morning, and I think that you're basically just equating unconditional love with not requiring anything of someone for you to love them right now. This is not unconditional love - this is just called "love". It means you feel something about someone at this moment. Saying that you require something of something before you'll feel something would mean that you don't feel it now. If the person goes out and performs the tasks you want them to, you'll feel it "then" (if you were serious about your conditions). You can't retroactively love someone. You can't ever say "well, since you did x, I love you last month".
So requiring something of someone for you to love them now is absolutely NOT what I'm talking about. That's not "conditional love", that's not even "love".
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Joel
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- Noob616
The thing is, it just comes naturally with my rational outlook on life. I learned at a young age not to trust your "gut feeling", and I look at everything logically. It bugs me because even in High School, where I shouldn't be worrying about these things, where I should be off chasing girls, I can see the futility in it (at this age). I see a possible relationship, then I think, "what's the use? I know that even if it lasts a year, all that's going to happen is that one of us will do something stupid, it'll end, and destroy a friendship."
- 746
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Danoff, I am not articulate enough to even try and go against you in any debate, I am not good at putting what is in my head into words, so I will give up here. My veiw of unconditional love is not the same as yours and that doesn't make it wrong or yours right. This would probably cover the way I see it and feel it.
I will accept that for my partner there was probably no uncontional love there - not for the reasons you say but for reasons I will not go into given who might read it.
Without being disrespectful to your current situation - when you have a child of your own flesh and blood you can then debate it out with me as to whether my love for my children in unconditional.
I will accept that for my partner there was probably no uncontional love there - not for the reasons you say but for reasons I will not go into given who might read it.
Without being disrespectful to your current situation - when you have a child of your own flesh and blood you can then debate it out with me as to whether my love for my children in unconditional.
Maybe someone is mistakenly assuming that something that is unconditional has to be eternal.
Just because you put no conditions on your love for someone it doesn’t mean you’ll love that person forever.
And if you “condition” your love for someone maybe you don’t really love that person.
Not that I think there's anything wrong in basing a "romantic" relationship on other feelings; real friendship and compatibility are far more important for a lasting relationship.
Just because you put no conditions on your love for someone it doesn’t mean you’ll love that person forever.
And if you “condition” your love for someone maybe you don’t really love that person.
Not that I think there's anything wrong in basing a "romantic" relationship on other feelings; real friendship and compatibility are far more important for a lasting relationship.
Danoff
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Um.... re-read my post.
A) I'm not saying eternal = unconditional. Here's me saying the opposite.
me
B) Time is a condition (this is not a question, it's a statement). So it doesn't matter when in time something happens, it still qualifies as a condition. I know that many of you would like to draw an arbitrary boundary at a smaller window of time (like a day, or a week), but it's meaningless.
RUI
Unconditional does not mean unreserved. Unreserved can even exist within conditions. Once the conditions are met, the reservation is lifted. That's unreserved within a set of conditions.
We can't have this discussion if you guys are unwilling to be precise with your language. If there's anything I've taken away from this conversation, it's that when someone says they have unconditional love they're simply being sloppy with the term unconditional and what they really mean is that they love someone for now and don't think it will change soon.
Keef
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Apparently you're not willing to risk your own life to save another. You cold hearted bastard, you.
If that's the case, then it's true that you believe love is entirely conditional. I personally have no idea if I would jump into harms way as I've never had to. I can't even safely assume that I would scamper away like a weenie, or fight fire with fire. I really have no idea, and I see no way to find out until the situation arises.
I see no way to find out until the situation arises. That's why I think you're wrong.
EDIT: Though I do agree that people often say unconditional when they don't actually mean it. Most people simply don't think that hard about stuff.
If that's the case, then it's true that you believe love is entirely conditional. I personally have no idea if I would jump into harms way as I've never had to. I can't even safely assume that I would scamper away like a weenie, or fight fire with fire. I really have no idea, and I see no way to find out until the situation arises.
I see no way to find out until the situation arises. That's why I think you're wrong.
EDIT: Though I do agree that people often say unconditional when they don't actually mean it. Most people simply don't think that hard about stuff.
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