[POLL] United States Presidential Elections 2016

[Dotini]

But still, at least voting and nicest and most respectful candidate maybe?

Haw haw! "Nice guys finish last" is one of our favorite sayings. Politicians who rise to positions of great power are generally cunning and cynical, but very tactful, I reckon. Above all, they do not give away the game.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You can't actually believe this. Are you really that myopic?

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of fedoras, no.

Yes, I suppose not. Whoever is picked will eventually just follow the ideals of the party and some group, somewhere will always be left out. But still, at least voting and nicest and most respectful candidate maybe? He/She may not do everything right but at least they could do a number of things right.

How does the logic of, "He/She may not do everything right but at least they could do a number of things right", not also apply to Trump or conservatives in general?

oops...double post...sorry.

 

[Dotini]

How does the logic of, "He/She may not do everything right but at least they could do a number of things right", not also apply to Trump or conservatives in general?

Here's the simplest logic:

Conservatives are equated with racism, bigotry, and - wait for it - backwards thinking; and so are evil.
Liberals, accordingly, are equated with good.

In many philosophies and religions (dualism), good and evil are at war. No reconciliation is possible, and they exist in perpetual conflict, or it ends in apocalyptic war.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Here's the simplest logic:

Conservatives are equated with racism and bigotry, and so are evil.
Liberals, accordingly, are equated with good.

In many philosophies and religions (dualism), good and evil are at war. No reconciliation is possible, and it ends in apocalyptic war.

If the apocalyptic war is at hand, I'd prefer Trump leading my Army vs. Bernie or Hillary

 

[Swagger897]

If the apocalyptic war is at hand, I'd prefer Trump leading my Army vs. Bernie or Hillary

How about no on this one... It doesn't matter who leads it, more or less about who fights it.

 

[huskeR32]

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of fedoras, no.

I suppose you think that was clever, but all I'm hearing is that you're either unwilling to examine your own beliefs, or at the least to discuss them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I suppose you think that was clever, but all I'm hearing is that you're either unwilling to examine your own beliefs, or at the least to discuss them.

High irony coming from someone who's idea of an invitation to examine my own beliefs is to infer that I am lacking imagination, foresight, intellectual insight, small minded, etc.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

The argument put forth by @McLaren isnt really a solid one. Trump's rise has nothing to do with the PC culture, but all to do with the fact there is still a huge segment of the religious and conservatives who see things as us vs them. Instead of looking at the system that refuses to give them healthcare and education they look to the powerless in the country as taking what is theirs.

 

[RC45]

The argument put forth by @McLaren isnt really a solid one. Trump's rise has nothing to do with the PC culture, but all to do with the fact there is still a huge segment of the religious and conservatives who see things as us vs them. Instead of looking at the system that refuses to give them healthcare and education they look to the powerless in the country as taking what is theirs.

This is your platform and belief structure?

The "system" has to GIVE you healthcare and education?

IOW you are a true socialist, borderline communist it would seem.

I came to this country with what was essentially $250 in my pocket. And nobody gave me a damn thing. Which was great, it meant I was incentivized to work for everything I have achieved.

My future was in my hands, not dictated by the "system". This caused me to work for my future exploiting my potential.

I see your outlook is completely opposite.

You feel your future is dictated by what the "system" gives you. This has apparently caused you to not work for your future but simply wait for your hand out.

You know you could save yourself a lot of angst and just move to Europe instead of trying to recreate it here.

It appears we have progressed to the point where the candidate promising the most handouts wins and the candidate promising to provide a vehicle for you to work for your future is simply dismissed as a bigot and racist.

 

[Akira AC]

High irony coming from someone who's idea of an invitation to examine my own beliefs is to infer that I am lacking imagination, foresight, intellectual insight, small minded, etc.

Well, is exactly that, if one can't question their own beliefs (regardless of what they are) then one is lacking a degree of insight.

Is interesting because is a set of opposites, if one can't see the flaws in one's belief then one will not be able to see flaws in others beliefs. If you feel vulnerable you are demonstrating exactly this (not trying to attack you or anything, but is a common thing with several members on these discussions, regardless of sides). Trump's popularity is a byproduct of analyzing these "beliefs", ironically Trump's success in the polls is just basing himself on the idea of keeping the church as an institution to be preserved and prioritized, people on said churches or communities lack these insight which is exploited for political game.

Politics are just a popularity contest, sure Trump's comments are inflammatory but they get everywhere on the media, which in itself increase the audience that said person will have and said person will use.

 

[ECGadget]

How does the logic of, "He/She may not do everything right but at least they could do a number of things right", not also apply to Trump or conservatives in general?

oops...double post...sorry.

I didn't say that. Trump, I most certainly believe it doesn't apply from his various statements not just over the past year but over many years. But anyone else, who knows? A conservative may be exactly the right leader for the States.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The argument put forth by @McLaren isnt really a solid one. Trump's rise has nothing to do with the PC culture, but all to do with the fact there is still a huge segment of the religious and conservatives who see things as us vs them. Instead of looking at the system that refuses to give them healthcare and education they look to the powerless in the country as taking what is theirs.

Congratulations. By attempting to do the opposite, you've given us a wonderful example of why Trump is rising in popularity.

 

[Joel]

It appears we have progressed to the point where the candidate promising the most handouts wins and the candidate promising to provide a vehicle for you to work for your future is simply dismissed as a bigot and racist.

Crazy thought here.

Maybe the candidate being dismissed as a racist bigot is being dismissed as a racist bigot...because he says racist and bigoted things? Who knows though, that's probably just the communist propaganda we get in Canada.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

This is your platform and belief structure?

The "system" has to GIVE you healthcare and education?

IOW you are a true socialist, borderline communist it would seem.

I came to this country with what was essentially $250 in my pocket. And nobody gave me a damn thing. Which was great, it meant I was incentivized to work for everything I have achieved.

My future was in my hands, not dictated by the "system". This caused me to work for my future exploiting my potential.

I see your outlook is completely opposite.

You feel your future is dictated by what the "system" gives you. This has apparently caused you to not work for your future but simply wait for your hand out.

You know you could save yourself a lot of angst and just move to Europe instead of trying to recreate it here.

It appears we have progressed to the point where the candidate promising the most handouts wins and the candidate promising to provide a vehicle for you to work for your future is simply dismissed as a bigot and racist.

So you are assuming I'm the one asking for this so called handout? You seem to be okay with letting the poor die from lack of healthcare and being relegated to working in a factory since they can't afford to get a proper education. Everyone who works here in the U.S pays taxes, why should the taxes go to subsidies and other unseeded things instead of something as simple as Medicare for all, and a safety net for when people get laid off or fried from their job? Why do you hate your fellow Americans? You want to attack me as this person who wants to help the needy but it's really just making you look selfish. What are the negatives of helping poor people pay their rent? How does that hurt anyone? I see you in the gun thread arguing for gun rights to protect you from criminals but you don't want to take steps to get rid of the criminals. You want the poor to stay in the corner and not try to get out of their situation as they see fit.

Congratulations. By attempting to do the opposite, you've given us a wonderful example of why Trump is rising in popularity.

And you still haven't even started a position. You seem to come to Trumps defense whenever someone attacks him so Ill just assume you are a conservative minded person. So since I believe in helping my Fellow AMERICANS when they can be helped, I'm the evil one? opposed to the people who claim they must pull themselves up by their none existent bootstraps? I'm sorry I value education and I believe everyone should receive one.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, is exactly that, if one can't question their own beliefs (regardless of what they are) then one is lacking a degree of insight.

So because I disagree with someone that means I'm not questioning my own beliefs and I lack insight. Right.

Is interesting because is a set of opposites, if one can't see the flaws in one's belief then one will not be able to see flaws in others beliefs. If you feel vulnerable you are demonstrating exactly this (not trying to attack you or anything, but is a common thing with several members on these discussions, regardless of sides). Trump's popularity is a byproduct of analyzing these "beliefs", ironically Trump's success in the polls is just basing himself on the idea of keeping the church as an institution to be preserved and prioritized, people on said churches or communities lack these insight which is exploited for political game.

What flaw? Gun rights are constitutionally guaranteed and that constitutional guarantee was recently interpreted and affirmed by the Supreme Court. Americans have a right to keep and bear arms and thus far have been willing to accept the consequences of that right because they feel that the benefits of gun ownership and the concept of freedom it's inevitably associated with, outweigh the costs. Foreign born peoples have no constitutional rights and no right to automatic entry into the United States and Congress has the power to change who is allowed into the country, how many, when etc.

IMO you are presenting a false dichotomy as an unquestionable truth and are unwilling to question your belief in this false dichotomy.

So you are assuming I'm the one asking for this so called handout? You seem to be okay with letting the poor die from lack of healthcare and being relegated to working in a factory since they can't afford to get a proper education. Everyone who works here in the U.S pays taxes, why should the taxes go to subsidies and other unseeded things instead of something as simple as Medicare for all, and a safety net for when people get laid off or fried from their job? Why do you hate your fellow Americans? You want to attack me as this person who wants to help the needy but it's really just making you look like a selfish prick. What are the negatives of helping poor people pay their rent? How does that hurt anyone? I see you in the gun thread arguing for gun rights to protect you from criminals but you don't want to take steps to get rid of the criminals. You want the poor to stay in the corner and not try to get out of their situation as they see fit.

Congratulations and keep up the good work in continuing to demonstrate why Donald Trump is so popular.

 

[RC45]

So you are assuming I'm the one asking for this so called handout? You seem to be okay with letting the poor die from lack of healthcare and being relegated to working in a factory since they can't afford to get a proper education. Everyone who works here in the U.S pays taxes, why should the taxes go to subsidies and other unseeded things instead of something as simple as Medicare for all, and a safety net for when people get laid off or fried from their job? Why do you hate your fellow Americans? You want to attack me as this person who wants to help the needy but it's really just making you look like a selfish prick. What are the negatives of helping poor people pay their rent? How does that hurt anyone? I see you in the gun thread arguing for gun rights to protect you from criminals but you don't want to take steps to get rid of the criminals. You want the poor to stay in the corner and not try to get out of their situation as they see fit.

Assistance to get on your feet is one thing.

Perpetual handouts is another.

When I was poor in the US (in Illinois) I did not get assistance to pay my rent, or assistance to buy food.

I got another job.

In those dirty factories you are so quick to deride.

I worked 2 jobs - a 2nd shift job and then a third shift job. My wife worked 2 jobs as well.

By day I was doing menial office support tasks in Rock island, at night I worked in a Kraft dry food packing plant in Davenport across the river. My wife worked in an old age home cleaning trash and old peoples diapers - you know jobs people expect Hispanic women to do. Then at night she joined me at the Kraft packing plant.

Pal, we where poor, but we chose to work our way out. Handouts would have simply kept us in that plantation.

When the 2nd shift dry food packing job ended we went on the the next menial job. I then left the office work and went to work in a paper bag factory is Bettendorf.

Do you see a theme here?

I have lived the American dream from the bottom up, so I damn well want to preserve it.

 

[Swagger897]

Sure about that one?

Trump's rise has nothing to do with the PC culture

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/09/donald-trump-politically-correct-crap-213988

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Assistance to get on your feet is one thing.

Perpetual handouts is another.

When I was poor in the US (in Illinois) I did not get assistance to pay my rent, or assistance to buy food.

I got another job.

In those dirty factories you are so quick to deride.

I worked 2 jobs - a 2nd shift job and then a third shift job. My wife worked 2 jobs as well.

By day I was doing menial office support tasks in Rock island, at night I worked in a Kraft dry food packing plant in Davenport across the river. My wife worked in an old age home cleaning trash and old peoples diapers - you know jobs people expect Hispanic women to do. Then at night she joined me at the Kraft packing plant.

Pal, we where poor, but we chose to work our way out. Handouts would have simply kept us in that plantation.

When the 2nd shift dry food packing job ended we went on the the next menial job. I then left the office work and went to work in a paper bag factory is Bettendorf.

Do you see a theme here?

I have lived the American dream from the bottom up, so I damn well want to preserve it.

Provide proof that receiving extra help to feed your kids, pay your rent, or receive healthcare when you are sick keeps you poor. You call them handouts in an attempt to belittle those who need help because you were able bodied enough and presumably didn't have kids so you were able to work all the time. You are taking anecdotal evidence and applying it to the populous when it's clear not everyone is you. You are ignoring the years of evidence showing how some people get in to drugs, and need help straightening out. The evidence of people being falsely arrested or needlessly arrested for petty drug crimes who can never get a respectable job when they get out. Like I said, Why do you hate your fellow Americans? Why is it not okay for me to be willing to help my fellow man out because you were to prideful to apply for food stamps. Not everyone is you and not everyone believes we should let the poor and sick rot while we needlessly waste money doing other idiotic things.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Sure about that one?

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/09/donald-trump-politically-correct-crap-213988

Yes because if that was so instrumental to his rise to his current standing then why has he not attacked it from that angle? Saying Mexicans are rapists and bringing drugs in to our country(some are good people he assumes), saying a Black Lives matters are criminals and thugs(show me proof of one black lives matter protestor killing someone, and the Fergusen riots weren't BLM but rather poor blacks who really didn't care about the movement), and that all Muslims should be blocked from entering the country has anything to do with being PC? If he was truly anti PC he would be talking about the facts of conservatives being shut down on college csmpuses(some not all) and far left feminists attacking men at the drop of the hat?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Provide proof that receiving extra help to feed your kids, pay your rent, or receive healthcare when you are sick keeps you poor. You call them handouts in an attempt to belittle those who need help because you were able bodied enough and presumably didn't have kids so you were able to work all the time. You are taking anecdotal evidence and applying it to the populous when it's clear not everyone is you. You are ignoring the years of evidence showing how some people get in to drugs, and need help straightening out. The evidence of people being falsely arrested or needlessly arrested for petty drug crimes who can never get a respectable job when they get out. Like I said, Why do you hate your fellow Americans? Why is it not okay for me to be willing to help my fellow man out because you were to prideful to apply for food stamps. Not everyone is you and not everyone believes we should let the poor and sick rot while we needlessly waste money doing other idiotic things.

Why is it that someone who disagrees with you must be characterized as hating his fellow Americans? How do you expect to have a reasonable discussion with someone when you continuously throw around pejoratives in an attempt to set your position up as somehow morally superior? Again, you are aptly demonstrating why Donald Trump is so popular. There are too many people like you on the other side of the Trump equation who can't have a discussion without labeling the other guy as evil/racist/bigot/anti-American/mysoginist/homophobe etc. because they disagree with you. Much like Trump does.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Why is it that someone who disagrees with you must be characterized as hating his fellow Americans? How do you expect to have a reasonable discussion with someone when you continuously throw around pejoratives in an attempt to set your position up as somehow morally superior? Again, you are aptly demonstrating why Donald Trump is so popular. There are too many people like you on the other side of the Trump equation who can't have a discussion without labeling the other guy as evil and an awful human being because they disagree with you. Much like Trump does.

I'm still waiting on an answer to why providing healthcare to the poor and sick is somehow bad and perpetuates them being poor and sick. Anyone who thinks healthcare in this country is fine as it is is an evil person. $500 copays and thousand dollar Ambulance rides aren't affordable to anyone who makes $300 every two weeks.

 

[Swagger897]

Yes because if that was so instrumental to his rise to his current standing then why has he not attacked it from that angle? Saying Mexicans are rapists and bringing drugs in to our country(some are good people he assumes), saying a Black Lives matters are criminals and thugs(show me proof of one black lives matter protestor killing someone, and the Fergusen riots weren't BLM but rather poor blacks who really didn't care about the movement), and that all Muslims should be blocked from entering the country has anything to do with being PC?

That is exactly, the definition of not being PC.

Who else has said "Mexicans are rapists" in the past five years vying for a political office, or currently holding one?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm still waiting on an answer to why providing healthcare to the poor and sick is somehow bad and perpetuates them being poor and sick. Anyone who thinks healthcare in this country is fine as it is is an evil person. $500 copays and thousand dollar Ambulance rides aren't affordable to anyone who makes $300 every two weeks.

There are too many people like you on the other side of the Trump equation who can't have a discussion without labeling the other guy as evil and an awful human being because they disagree with you. Much like Trump does.

Do you not see that you are engaging in the exact same type of rhetoric that Trump is?
"Anyone who thinks healthcare in this country is fine as it is is an evil person"
Substitute "healthcare" for any number of buzz phrases and that statement you could easily see that coming from Trump right? Why is it ok for you and not for him?

Oh, and referring to someone as a "selfish 🤬" because they don't agree with you won't do you any favours either.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

That is exactly, the definition of not being PC.

Who else has said "Mexicans are rapists" in the past five years vying for a political office, or currently holding one?

So generalizing about a group of people and being outright racist is an argument against PC? It may be, but going to the other extreme isn't right nor is it honorable.

Do you not see that you are engaging in the exact same type of rhetoric that Trump is?
"Anyone who thinks healthcare in this country is fine as it is is an evil person"
Substitute "healthcare" for any number of buzz phrases and that statement you could easily see that coming from Trump right? Why is it ok for you and not for him?

Oh, and referring to someone as a "selfish 🤬" because they don't agree with you won't do you any favours either.

You benefit from free healthcare in your country, aim not sure you have any right to say how good our system is as it is. You haven't received a $70,000 bill in the mail for healthcare.

 

[RC45]

Provide proof that receiving extra help to feed your kids, pay your rent, or receive healthcare when you are sick keeps you poor.

Proof. Ok - how about the habitual poor that stay on assistance for ever, having extra kids to increase the size of their handouts.

You call them handouts in an attempt to belittle those who need help because you were able bodied enough and presumably didn't have kids so you were able to work all the time.

Lot of assuming there buddy. I call them hand outs because that is exactly what they are. The state hands it out, you either take it or you don't.

How about 2 kids and no car?

Anything else you need to know?

How about pay?

$5.50/hr and $5.75/hr for my 2 jobs. $4.75/hr and $5.75/hr for my wifes jobs. And other 30 hours for each of our jobs - so we maxed at 60 hours per week.

You are taking anecdotal evidence and applying it to the populous when it's clear not everyone is you.

Exactly my friend. You want a system of equal result where nobody excels and everyone is mediocre at best.

I want a system of equal opportunity, where the hard working rise to the top.

Sounds like you want to live in a Europe.

You are ignoring the years of evidence showing how some people get in to drugs, and need help straightening out. The evidence of people being falsely arrested or needlessly arrested for petty drug crimes who can never get a respectable job when they get out.

Simple - don't want to get busted for drugs, don't do drugs. Life is hard, even harder when one is stupid.

Like I said, Why do you hate your fellow Americans?

I never once hated anybody. I competed against and beat some of them yes, but never hated on them.

Why is it not okay for me to be willing to help my fellow man out because you were to prideful to apply for food stamps.

You want to help someone, then use your money. I already help by way of tax and donations. We often donate to deserving causes. Interesting how you turn my working my way out of the ghetto into being prideful.

We simple looked at the options - In order to get food stamps or housing aid (section 8) we would have needed to reduce our income. Now who in their right effing mind would NOT work so they can qualify for a hand out?? I will tell you who - lazy people. It is easier to NOT work and get some money, than work and get a little bit more.

We even had the welfare office suggest an extra baby might help up the handout while not requiring such a reduction in work hours.

And just so you know, when you are at that low level of income, ALL the money that is deducted as income tax, gets given right back to you at the end of the year PLUS some extra if you enough babies.

That formula right there is what keeps people on the plantation and in poverty.

And in his purest form, Cruz is the formula that the USA needs, but we might need to package him with the Trump card to get across the line.

Not everyone is you and not everyone believes we should let the poor and sick rot while we needlessly waste money doing other idiotic things.

Not quite sure what your point is here.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You benefit from free healthcare in your country, aim not sure you have any right to say how good our system is as it is. You haven't received a $70,000 bill in the mail for healthcare.

I live in a province of about 14 million people and last time I looked we were spending more than $50 billion on health care. As a country we have 1/10th your population and spend more than $200 billion on healthcare. Where is this free healthcare and where can I get some? We also have a mean waiting time of 18 weeks for surgery. I have known people who have died waiting for surgery.

What were you saying about free Healthcare?

 

[Swagger897]

So generalizing about a group of people and being outright racist is an argument against PC? It may be, but going to the other extreme isn't right nor is it honorable.

So, what exactly is it then you're blabbering about? Trump said just those things, which is why he has gotten to the top.


You think him just being in it and people knowing his name has gotten him this far?

$5.50/hr and $5.75/hr for my 2 jobs. $4.75/hr and $5.75/hr for my wifes jobs. And other 30 hours for each of our jobs - so we maxed at 60 hours per week.

Are we talking about this a while back ago or is this present?

 

[RC45]

Are we talking about this a while back ago or is this present?

1994 - the Clinton years, when believe it or not, there was a sliding reducing scale of benefits. But popping out a baby was a clever way to play the numbers. That fact kept a lot of folks on the plantation.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Proof. Ok - how about the habitual poor that stay on assistance for ever, having extra kids to increase the size of their handouts.


Lot of assuming there buddy. I call them hand outs because that is exactly what they are. The state hands it out, you either take it or you don't.

How about 2 kids and no car?

Anything else you need to know?

How about pay?

$5.50/hr and $5.75/hr for my 2 jobs. $4.75/hr and $5.75/hr for my wifes jobs. And other 30 hours for each of our jobs - so we maxed at 60 hours per week.


Exactly my friend. You want a system of equal result where nobody excels and everyone is mediocre at best.

I want a system of equal opportunity, where the hard working rise to the top.

Sounds like you want to live in a Europe.


Simple - don't want to get busted for drugs, don't do drugs. Life is hard, even harder when one is stupid.


I never once hated anybody. I competed against and beat some of them yes, but never hated on them.


You want to help someone, then use your money. I already help by way of tax and donations. We often donate to deserving causes. Interesting how you turn my working my way out of the ghetto into being prideful.

We simple looked at the options - In order to get food stamps or housing aid (section 8) we would have needed to reduce our income. Now who in their right effing mind would NOT work so they can qualify for a hand out?? I will tell you who - lazy people. It is easier to NOT work and get some money, than work and get a little bit more.

We even had the welfare office suggest an extra baby might help up the handout while not requiring such a reduction in work hours.

And just so you know, when you are at that low level of income, ALL the money that is deducted as income tax, gets given right back to you at the end of the year PLUS some extra if you enough babies.

That formula right there is what keeps people on the plantation and in poverty.

And in his purest form, Cruz is the formula that the USA needs, but we might need to package him with the Trump card to get across the line.


Not quite sure what your point is here.

I want a system where the lowest of the low aren't dying on the streets from hunger and other curable diseases. I'm not sure how that is so evil and anti American to you, the system as it is now is broken no one is saying it works as it is. I'm saying we need to give everyone healthcare, everyone an education and let everything else figure itself out. Having a system where you can get help for the rent and other utilities dosent have to be the same one we deal with now, it can change.

I live in a province of about 14 million people and last time I looked we were spending more than $50 billion on health care. As a country we have 1/10th your population and spend more than $200 billion on healthcare. Where is this free healthcare and where can I get some? We also have a mean waiting time of 18 weeks for surgery. I have known people who have died waiting for surgery.

What were you saying about free Healthcare?

Americans spend about 3 trillion on healthcare as it is now. That's fine?
Americans use healthcare very differently than you guys do up there. http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr...g-on-track-to-hit-10000-per-person-this-year/

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

So, what exactly is it then you're blabbering about? Trump said just those things, which is why he has gotten to the top.


You think him just being in it and people knowing his name has gotten him this far?


Are we talking about this a while back ago or is this present?

If answer to being PC is being racist I think I'll sit this one out then.