Update 1.02 DID NOT fix the input lag [UPDATE 5]

Sier_Pinski

Sier_Pinski

657
United States
Texas
XizangM1
EDIT 5: A new video has been released which now tests the input lag for the actual car steering, rather than for the virtual wheel and tire simulation, which I am now assuming is independent from the steering. (see also here)
pgagoober


There are two clear input and direction changes in there. I measured the first one at 14 frames and the second at 13 frames, so let's call it 13 frames. At 30fps that comes out to 433ms +/- some margin of error.
[...]
This result was as expected and shows that patch 1.02 definitely made some progress in this area. Fingers crossed for 1.03....
Click to expand...

Compared to the pre-patch wheel lag of exactly .5 seconds, the 1.02 patch reduced the input lag by a factor of 67ms, further strengthening the assumption that the patch did in fact fix the input lag.

A big thanks to pgagoober and everyone else who helped to bust this myth once and for all! :)👍

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EDIT 4: I am now assuming at this point that the myth that the input lag was not fixed at all after this patch is false.

A more detailed Youtube video of the input lag after the 1.02 patch has been released:

The creator of the video, GTPlanet user pgagoober, pretty much sums up this whole topic:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5358254#post5358254
pgagoober
The lag from first input motion on the Fanatec wheel to the first detectable rotation of the car's tires : 0.366 seconds

FYI - the lag until the in-car wheel/hands rotate is 0.3 seconds so there is a very slight additional delay between the in-car steering wheel/hands movement and the tire reaction.

This is obviously an improvement from the pre-patch lag of 0.433 seconds but it is still nowhere near the GT5 results of 0.233 seconds.

That said, even this minor improvement shows in the game's handling and it has improved substantially. If EA/SMS can really get their teeth into this they will have an exceptional game on their hands and could well set the new benchmark for console racing. Unfortunately between the still present lag and the all too often game freezes on PS3, they still have work to do to get there. Here's hoping they're not under the impression their work is done.
Click to expand...
So the lag was fixed alright, but only slightly, and to some (including me), there is still a bit of room for improvement. But as pgagoober said, it still improves the playability of the game in some way.

As for the (now outdated) title of this thread, I am going to leave it intact, so that anyone searching these forums or googling for this claim should be able to see it and find out just what really happened. If you want me to change it, please inform me, or if you're a moderator, feel free to change it yourself.

Shall we say: Case closed?

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EDIT 3: Uninstalling the patch did not change anything either, BUT, (after reinstalling it,) I have come to some interesting conclusions after further research of the game.
I tested a car once again after setting steering sensitivity, and for the first time during my input lag tests, I turned on the telemetry interface. I want you all to see this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlNh0baWnB0&t=1m59s
See those green/yellow circles there? Those indicate forces on the tires. I did the bumper test once more with that on, and guess what: The rotating lines inside the circles rotated instantly!. And so did the small white vertical line on the bottom left. The car was immediately responding to my wheel, but the tires themselves had to apparently adjust to the forces applied to them before actually making the car turn, which apparently takes around 1/3 of a second.
The lag between the turning of the real wheel and the turning of the virtual steering wheel was around 1/5 of a second.
So can it be just the driving physics that are causing the 'lag'?
Discuss.

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ORIGINAL POST:
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I feel this is big enough news for a separate thread.

After installing 1.02, I decided to test a corvette on a track to see if the input lag was fixed. Having done the 'bumper-test' (as performed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Hnevp-AtU&feature=related ), I was surprised to see that the delay between the movement of the wheel and the car actually turning was still .5 seconds--the same as before!

But here's where things get interesting: I checked these forums to see that others had reported the same lag after installing the patch. But after they quit the game and restarted it, the lag was fixed. I quit the game after installing the patch, re-entered it, and the same lag was still there.

What I did next was quit the game, delete all my save data, game data, and the patch file, turned off the system for five minutes, turn it back on, reinstall the patch and the game, quit it, re-enter it, performed the bumper test, and discover that the same exact lag is still intact after all that.

Am I missing something here? Is my disc broken? Or was the input lag really not fixed at all and no one noticed it? (Because I think the delay between the real wheel and the virtual wheel had been reduced, but not the actual steering itself, giving the illusion that--while in cockpit view--the lag was fixed).

EDIT: Here is someone else's video pretty much describing what i'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14_K8ypEvg
Around the 1:40 mark, you can see some of the input lag in action, although he doesn't exactly do the bumper test.

I have the PS3 version, on elite driving physics, using a DFGT, using the settings described here (except the steering lock, currently set at 360 for both modes): https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=196575

Thanks for any help.

EDIT 2: Seeing that most of the replies are claiming that my patch in fact did work, but I'm just not noticing it, allow me to redirect your attention to what I posted last night:
Sier_Pinski
Quoting from someone from the 1.02 patch thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5316717#post5316717



Inconsistent patch results?! That is absolutely ridiculous! That may explain why I have input lag after the patch, but some others don't. I'll have to find out what to do specifically with deleting files to get the different results.

EDIT:


https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5318948#post5318948

What I need to do is uninstall the patch in hopes that the input lag will be fixed for good. SMS meanwhile will have to get word of the inconsistent patch results, and release a patch that guarantees an input lag fix.
Click to expand...


As for this inconsistent-patch claim, I am just going to call it another myth, since not only is there not enough information nor real evidence of this, but also the video above proves that I in fact have the same amount of lag as everyone else's. In other words: improved.

.
 
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I remember something (at nogrip?) where someone said the lag had been reduced but not completely gone. I really don't know how much lag is possible to remove but for now, the game runs pretty well for me.

Disclaimer: I might be too much into the game now to notice it but I still can go play GT5 after a month of Shift2 without the need to adapt to the steering.
 
Quoting from someone from the 1.02 patch thread:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5316717#post5316717

Gabba73
During my many tests since realese of the second patch I got different result from delete, uninstalling and restalling, patch and gaming data and this make me think that the game have issue that give different response to all the players.........one of this different response could be the input lag.
Do you think it could be reasonable????
I repeat, I don't want convice anybody of anything, but just understand togheter why this game has so different opinions
Click to expand...

Inconsistent patch results?! That is absolutely ridiculous! That may explain why I have input lag after the patch, but some others don't. I'll have to find out what to do specifically with deleting files to get the different results.

EDIT:
Gabba73
Today new stange things happen.
I try to delete again the 1.02 patch and than running the game without that.
Incredibile the input lag disappear and the car reacts quicky as GT5.... i can drive as i want and finally enjoy the title also if the FF has the sudden drop off to simulate the understeer as before every patches.

I hope to see soon a new patch that resolve everything and make Shift 2 the same for every users.
Click to expand...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=5318948#post5318948

What I need to do is uninstall the patch in hopes that the input lag will be fixed for good. SMS meanwhile will have to get word of the inconsistent patch results, and release a patch that guarantees an input lag fix.
 
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The input lag has been reduced considerably with the latest patch. However.., it hasn't been "completely" removed. There is still a slight delay with steering input. This was the same problem with the original Shift. It was reduced.., but not removed.

What I think people tend to overlook is that even though SMS has done reasonably well with the Shift series.., many of the problems and complaints regarding game control with both Shift titles shows that SMS are really very inexperienced when it comes to properly calibrating a physics model to game pad input.

A vast majority of the problem is that SMS need to learn how to properly apply "filters" for pad users. The reason titles like GT5 and FM3 work much better is only partly due to the physics engine. A major factor is also proper application of filters.
 
Same here. Shelving the game until PSN store is back up and I can try out the Legends DLC. The floaty feeling is especially bad on Nordschleife with a fast car such as my A1530 Corvette. Right now I can only enjoy the game with cars from class C and below.
 
Hi All.

it wasn't till I reset the wheel that i noticed a difference!

however i needed to have a 450 deg and a steering sensitivity 89% to make a difference on the track; so reduced lag only after reset.

this produced up to 20 seconds gain on some lap times.

regards UVVBM
 
I agree with the OP, and it's also real frustrating seeing how much people love it after the patch! And yes I've tried everything. I don't know maybe it's because I have an old DFP that I got for gt4 haha but it works fine on other games
 
Lag is fixed for me too...im using fanatec pwts wheel.

@magic_town, i think you have the right idea, really rather than creating a general topic, i think perhaps it should be very specific... detailing exactly what hardware you are using.

otherwise, you will get replies from people with different wheels, and game pads etc

sounds like you really need to hear from DFP/DFGT owners... not sure how many there are here, my be worth also trying on the ea forums.
 
I still experience the lag too. Ps3/DFGT/elite. Got kinda used to it though, I guess.

What really baffles me too is that different people get different results on the same system and with the same hardware. That should definitely not be the case. Add another totally not understandable and inexcusable flaw that takes away from a theoretically great game. Damn Shame.

I wish they would at least adress all these things, if they not gonna fix it. Why the freezes? Why the different lags for different people? Why the magnetic crashes? Why the disappearing livery? Its really, really disappointing that they started out so well with a game thats great in its core and great communication with customers and then more and more degraded from that. :ill:
 
I am here.
G27, PS3 fat 40gb.
I still have lag after 1.02 patch.
To answer to everyone which think we tend to overlook it, I can say I can play Shift 1 on PS3 very well after patch 1.03 and its lag is very lower than SHIFT 2 Unleashed 1.02.

P.S.
Elite mode
No aids
450 steering lock
steer sensivity 50% (I try also 80% and 100% but it does not influenze the lag but just the linearity)
speed sensivity 0%
all dead zones 0
 
Same as gabba for the settings.

But I have to add that I think everybody knows the lag is still there to some extent. Just might be unnoticed or we are used to it.

Boomee had it right saying "virtually gone"

As for different experiences, might be because of different wheels... maybe...
 
Every racing game in the consoles has so kind of lag, even GT5... of course there is still lag in the game but it has been reduced quite a bit after 1.02
 
i think we have to be careful to not get caught in symantics here

yes, its impossible to not have 'lag' ... even if its 1 nS, as computers take time to process an instruction or two to process the input.

but really, its down to does it affect game play.

personally, i dont notice any appreciable lag, but then again, i do not look for it specifically, the game plays as i want it to... so why would i frustrate myself by trying to measure it :)


but im sure others are having issues, otherwise they would not post.
so either:
a) they are having a different experience to others
e.g. due to a bug, due to particular hardware
b) they have a different expectation. i.e. they are having the same experience but dont think its good enough.


now, the OP said 1.02 made no difference at all, so that appears to be firmly (a), since many are say it has improved. this cannot be due to (b) as those reporters (including myself) know it is better that 1.0, 1.01... its not really subjective.
of course if its (a) then SMS should fix it, but need to know the causes.

if its (b), well, thats going to be more tricky, as its matter of opinion, as some are happy with it, some are not...its subjective,
so really its not a bug, its more of an enhancement for SMS, they may improve it, but they may not.

(b) is interesting as well, since i think the more you play, the less you would notice any lag... your brain would work around it... so i guess, perhaps if you suffer from (b) you have to decide if you are willing to do that or not.
 
I still have more lag than GT5 and Shift 1 and so I think others persons who complain about the lag.
The only metod the reduce the lag is uninstall the patch 1.02 and play with the FF loss during over and understeer and without the possibility to play online and look at the autolog (due the software not up to date).

Again It seem that someone of you don't want understand that the game has different reactions..... someone have lag, someone no, someone have crash, someone no.... some one have the waving effect some one no......
 
Sier_Pinski
I feel this is big enough news for a separate thread.

After installing 1.02, I decided to test a corvette on a track to see if the input lag was fixed. Having done the 'bumper-test' (as performed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Hnevp-AtU&feature=related ), I was surprised to see that the delay between the movement of the wheel and the car actually turning was still .5 seconds--the same as before!

But here's where things get interesting: I checked these forums to see that others had reported the same lag after installing the patch. But after they quit the game and restarted it, the lag was fixed. I quit the game after installing the patch, re-entered it, and the same lag was still there.

What I did next was quit the game, delete all my save data, game data, and the patch file, turned off the system for five minutes, turn it back on, reinstall the patch and the game, quit it, re-enter it, performed the bumper test, and discover that the same exact lag is still intact after all that.

Am I missing something here? Is my disc broken? Or was the input lag really not fixed at all and no one noticed it? (Because I think the delay between the real wheel and the virtual wheel had been reduced, but not the actual steering itself, giving the illusion that--while in cockpit view--the lag was fixed).

EDIT: Here is someone else's video pretty much describing what i'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14_K8ypEvg
Around the 1:40 mark, you can see some of the input lag in action, although he doesn't exactly do the bumper test.

I have the PS3 version, on elite driving physics, using a DFGT, using the settings described here (except the steering lock, currently set at 360 for both modes): https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=196575

Thanks for any help.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with you on my PS3 + Logitech DFP+S2U.

Do you think it could be our wheels (someone said the DFP and DFGT are identical or very similar in regards to innards)? I know that my DFP is quite "sloppy" and has a lot of play in it when on the PS3. On my PC it has some looseness but it is much better than my PS3 thanks to the wondeful options available in PC racing sims.

:dunce:
 
To me, the lag seems to be reduced in 1.02, but it's still not as low as on others sims/games I play.

Regarding the different experiences w.r.t. the controls, I have a hypothesis:

In the beginning, most wheel users were plagued by the steering lag. Then a flurry of discussions on tweaking controls ensued. These settings themselves did nothing to cure the actual problem, but as people tweaked and played for weeks, they simply got used to the lag (and whatever control setting were in effect). So we got postings like "To get rid of the lag, set dead zone to 23%, sensitivity to 67%, etc. ..." - nonsensical stuff basically. Then we got the patches and the tweaking discussions continued while the reported effects on the lag were varying. In the mean time, people continued to adapt to the game mechanics and a variety of control settings. Now we have a S2U community where observation and understanding of the issue has partly descended into chaos... :boggled: None of this alters the physical reality behind it, of course - but some people seem impervious to reality anyway :lol:

DJ
--
 
Gabba73
Again It seem that someone of you don't want understand (...)
Click to expand...

I think by now everyone accepts that the game has issues with the input lag being on top of the list right beside freezing.

No one is doubting anyone. Its an awkward situation and I agree there always be some fanboy(ism) (if anything) but being obtuse is not an excuse for not understanding.

Well, at least I do and accept some people have more issues than other. That's why I consider myself lucky but not without quirks.
 
@DrJustice, agreed
thats my general theory too...
some people have different expectations on what is acceptable.
though there could be some variation between controllers as well.

i will say though, i put the ps3 version (1.00) to one side as it was unplayable with fanatec, and bought the xbox version. which was much better from day 1. (i compared side by side)
i then really only played the ps3 version once 1.02 was out, and it was much improved... i think the lag, is probably the same as the xbox version.
so my experience wasnt about getting used to it i dont think.

Of course, we will never know, did the ps3 have a bug, or did they simply optimise it... and of course, we dont know if they will continue to optimise it.
 
I fear SMS did the same mistake they did with the PC version where the patch did not changed the exe of some versions (Steam and others digital versions) generating some bugs in the game: lag don't resolved, graphical glitch, poor performance, etc.etc.
I think also the PSN patch has a sort of bug that does not change all the necessary files on some system (maybe PS£ version, maybe game version(standard, SE) etc.etc.); in this way it could be understandable because we have some different sensations and results about the patch.
 
TheTechnobear
i think we have to be careful to not get caught in symantics here
...
but really, its down to does it affect game play.

personally, i dont notice any appreciable lag, but then again, i do not look for it specifically, the game plays as i want it to... so why would i frustrate myself by trying to measure it :)
...
b) they have a different expectation. i.e. they are having the same experience but dont think its good enough.
...
if its (b), well, thats going to be more tricky, as its matter of opinion, as some are happy with it, some are not...its subjective,
so really its not a bug, its more of an enhancement for SMS, they may improve it, but they may not.
...
Click to expand...

Well said I agree completely. The freezes, for me very infrequent, are a very measureable bug, the control issues are VERY subjective. It seems to come down to expectations.
The new poll that has been stated clearly indicate more are "satisfied" than not.
 
The lag has been improved dramatically - but yes, it is still there & driving in the game still doesn't feel as responsive as it should.

It still feels to me as though i'm having to guide the car round the track rather than drive it...i'm really trying to like this game as much as I know I should - but the controls keep preventing that from happening.
 
Sier_Pinski
EDIT 3: PLEASE READ FIRST: Uninstalling the patch did not change anything either, BUT, (after reinstalling it,) I have come to some interesting conclusions after further research of the game.
I tested a car once again after setting steering sensitivity, and for the first time during my input lag tests, I turned on the telemetry interface. I want you all to see this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlNh0baWnB0&t=1m59s
See those green/yellow circles there? Those indicate forces on the tires. I did the bumper test once more with that on, and guess what: The rotating lines inside the circles rotated instantly!. And so did the small white vertical line on the bottom left. The car was immediately responding to my wheel, but the tires themselves had to apparently adjust to the forces applied to them before actually making the car turn, which apparently takes around 1/3 of a second.
The lag between the turning of the real wheel and the turning of the virtual steering wheel was around 1/5 of a second.
So can it be just the driving physics that are causing the 'lag'?
Discuss.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. From a layman's point of view I'd say it is very well possible. Input could be received in time and handed to the physics engine in time, but the physics mathmatics could be too bulky for a PS3/Xbox to calculate in time.
The handbrake is also late by the way.
 
It may actually be that it's the soft car setups combined with tyre deformation/weight transfer... Something that hasn't really been simulated well before.

But no, cars should respond instantly...
 
Sier_Pinski
...The lag between the turning of the real wheel and the turning of the virtual steering wheel was around 1/5 of a second.
So can it be just the driving physics that are causing the 'lag'?
Discuss.
Click to expand...
Unless the SMS game engine is doing something strange, the physics engine itself should not cause any noticeable lag. According to SMS the physics is recalculated at a rate of 400Hz (they previously said 320Hz). Let's say that there are intervals of 3ms between physics iterations. The physics engine should use the very latest control inputs. Considering that USB is used we should allow upwards to 10ms for that. Display frames are generated at a rate of 30Hz, or one every 33ms. If you use an LCD monitor/TV there will be a delay there too, from almost nothing to a few tens of milli seconds, say 1 frame at 50Hz, so 20ms in gaming/PC mode just to have a number.

So, using those numbers, the time from the control input is read to a frame is displayed could theoretically be as little as:
10 + 3 + 33 + 20 = 66ms

Maybe the game engine pipelines things a bit, so lets add another frame interval of 33ms to arrive at a worst case of ca. 100ms (a tenth of a second). There should be no reason for any more lag than that in a game. Of course only SMS knows how the game engine works, but they have told us that there was an 'asynchronicity' issue with the controls before the patch 1.02, something that tells me that the coding in this area got ever so slightly out of hand (threads and synchronization?). Note that I'm speculating wildly at this point :)

DJ
--
 

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