US braces for 'Day Without Immigrants' (AFP)

[Sage]

“Day Without Immigrants” my foot – this was the Day Without Illegal Immigrants.

My mom, an immigrant, and now an American citizen, came here legally. And you know what? – she doesn’t have the slightest bit of empathy for them, because she went through the system, while they think they can circumvent it, then call on American Constitutional rights to protect themselves. What a load of crock – you don’t break into somebody’s house and then ask them for shelter.

People keep trying to turn this into an issue of “anti-immigration” (thus the heavily-biased name given to today’s rallies) – but for Bog’s sake, it’s an issue of illegal immigration. What part of “illegal” don’t people understand – the “il” or “legal” part?

I understand people want to make a better living for themselves and their families, and I’m well-aware that many of them are hard-working people who don’t want to be crooks. But doesn’t give them the right to come in illegally – the ends don’t justify the means. The only exception I’d ever give is to somebody who needs shelter from a violently tyrannical government.

 

[TurboSmoke]

To work legally in the US you need a H1 visa. Same as a 'work permit' in the UK. The employer usually sponsors the employee in obtaining this. Not all employers in the US are willing to do this however because there are only a set amount of H1 visas issued by the govt each year (roughly 50-60,000). The demand far exceeds the supply from both businesses and prostective employees so the systems is wide open to abuse.

The Green Card is exactly the same status 'permanent residency' in the UK. You work, live and pay taxes without restriction but you are not automatically a citizen of the US. This is a different process. Same as in the UK.

Obtaining a Green Card is relatively easy but you must be legally employed and meet the requirement first. This is where the govt is lax. They are well aware that people who do not have the nessecary paperwork to work legally will never get through the system to citizenship. This is intentional. The govt therefore exploits immigrant workers to fill positions too menial for the avaerage American. I am sure many other govts accross the globe would like to adopt such a scheme if they could get away with it. It suits the govt, it suits the unscrupulous businesses and suits the workers.

Why the hell they are striking is utterly beyond me.

I have a Green Card. It's an pass for permanent residence. I pay same taxes you pay, even Social Security. As for travelers, etc. without Green Card, they have Visas. When Visas expires, it's time for them to go back.

 

[TurboSmoke]

“Day Without Immigrants” my foot – this was the Day Without Illegal Immigrants.

My mom, an immigrant, and now an American citizen, came here legally. And you know what? – she doesn’t have the slightest bit of empathy for them, because she went through the system, while they think they can circumvent it, then call on American Constitutional rights to protect themselves. What a load of crock – you don’t break into somebody’s house and then ask them for shelter.

People keep trying to turn this into an issue of “anti-immigration” (thus the heavily-biased name given to today’s rallies) – but for Bog’s sake, it’s an issue of illegal immigration. What part of “illegal” don’t people understand – the “il” or “legal” part?

I understand people want to make a better living for themselves and their families, and I’m well-aware that many of them are hard-working people who don’t want to be crooks. But doesn’t give them the right to come in illegally – the ends don’t justify the means. The only exception I’d ever give is to somebody who needs shelter from a violently tyrannical government.

agreed, good post.

 

[TurboSmoke]

You meant to say "along with illegal workers"..

no, legal workers enter the country though a border or port too..

 

[FoolKiller]

Well, I didn't notice a thing here in Kentucky. It's too early in the season for the farms to need the workers and the rest seem to be in Mexican restaurants, which seemed to be the only business shutdowns that I saw. Of course the owners chose to shut down themselves. That kind of cracks me up because the owners are here legally and so in order to support their underpaid staff they took a hit in income.

My wife had a Mexican craving last night and so we hit Taco Bell. It isn't the same but the other chain stores were still open too. It was just the independent restaurants that were closed.

My wife and I also went to Wal*Mart for some garden supplies and groceries. (Yes, I hate Wal*Mart but I didn't want to run all over town for multiple things) The same old people were there working.

Oh, and I just looked down; my garbage can here at work got emptied as usual last night, so I guess the Hispanic family (husband, wife, two teenage daughters) that clean our office were here too.


So, aside from blocked streets did anyone truly have their life disrupted? I know mine wasn't. I guess that means that I can live without them.

 

[Swift]

So, aside from blocked streets did anyone truly have their life disrupted? I know mine wasn't. I guess that means that I can live without them.

That would be my conclusion as well.

 

[Danoff]

no, legal workers enter the country though a border or port too..

I'm aware, but that's not what a6 was talking about.

If this was true, then the World will be a lot happier place. You are forgetting that most people start the habbit when they are in their teens.

I didn't forget anything.

 

[Famine]

I'm a little confused.

If all of these illegals are gathering in large bunches to take part in marches, why are the US Immigration officials not turning up, arresting and deporting the lot of them? It makes it easier than trying to track them...

 

[Pupik]

But really I'm not for illegal aliens in the states, it's still a law and they are still breaking it. Honestly these people have 0 right to protest because they aren't citizens so they aren't entitled to free speech.

If all of these illegals are gathering in large bunches to take part in marches, why are the US Immigration officials not turning up, arresting and deporting the lot of them? It makes it easier than trying to track them...

Those are called "unaliable rights"; most Constitutional rights are afforded to non-US citizens on US soil. Whether that's right or wrong, it's also the law. I suppose the police would be heavily outnumbered, and the right to congregate peacefully, albiet for a short period of time, outweighs the trouble of rounding them up for deportation.

Call me simplistic, but just abolish welfare, make everyone a US citizen who wants to, providing they pass a basic test to uphold the basic rights and laws of this country, tax 'em like the rest of us, and boot out the everyone else that doesn't want to be a US citizen, unless they're visiting on travel/business/entertainment.

 

[Swift]

I'm a little confused.

If all of these illegals are gathering in large bunches to take part in marches, why are the US Immigration officials not turning up, arresting and deporting the lot of them? It makes it easier than trying to track them...

Now Famine, we both know logic and government action doesn't mix!

 

[Danoff]

I'm a little confused.

If all of these illegals are gathering in large bunches to take part in marches, why are the US Immigration officials not turning up, arresting and deporting the lot of them? It makes it easier than trying to track them...

We often don't deport illegal immigrants we know about. I've seen illegaly immigrated families on television giving their names and location, explaining why they came here. There is no fear of being deported.

The IRS knows exactly where hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are, because some of them actually pay taxes. But the IRS doesn't share this information with immigration.

We deport people seemingly at random. It's pathetic really.

I agree, we should have had trucks ready to send these guys back to mexico. A rally in support of illegal activity is the perfect thing to get them out in the open and on a truck back home. Unfortunately we seem to have given up the fight.

 

[Famine]

You might want to circulate what's been happening to our Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, around your country...

 

[Danoff]

You might want to circulate what's been happening to our Home Secretary, Charles Clarke, around your country...

That sucks. Why would Blair refuse his resignation?

 

[Swift]

That sucks. Why would Blair refuse his resignation?

That was my question.

And I'm SURE the same kind of thing is happening in America. Though it may not all tie back to one person like it does in England.

 

[Famine]

That sucks. Why would Blair refuse his resignation?

Read the "Sleaze-free Labour rocked again" thread I posted. That'll give you insight into Tony Blair.

 

[Kylehnat]

You're right, it's been a problem for a while. But I want to know why you're so laid back about it.

I guess I'm "laid-back" compared to some of you, in that I don't place illegal immigrants on the same level of criminal as child molesters. Here's the thing: you can't unflood your basement until you fix the leak. Deporting 12 million people does nothing if they can just come right back in. The real problem lies with our lax border security (both Mexican and Canadian borders), and a lack of labor enforcement. Kicking out the illegals treats the symptom, not the disease. American companies will go down to Mexico to recruit workers, promising them a free pass across the border and under-the-table paychecks. The company can then pay them below minimum wage, and not have to pay social security, workers' comp, and other employment fees that cost companies tons of money. These are the real criminals who are 1)smuggling workers across the border, 2)violating basic labor laws, and 3)cheating the tax system. This is what needs to stop before anything else will. Like you said, we have to make it disadvantageous for companies to give work to illegal immigrants, which will then make it disadvantageous for immigrants to come here in the first place.

 

[FoolKiller]

I'm a little confused.

If all of these illegals are gathering in large bunches to take part in marches, why are the US Immigration officials not turning up, arresting and deporting the lot of them? It makes it easier than trying to track them...

Good question. This would be the second nationwide planned protest (first involving walkouts from work and boycotts) and then there have neen numerous school walkouts and protests in localized areas since this all started.

It seemed to me that INS could just go out and start rounding up a few people who couldn't prove citizenship and the protest would either break up or turn ugly. If it broke up then it is over, if it turned ugly then they just broke another law and really should be deported.

But when a group of people are standing around screaming, "Look at me! I'm illegal," it seems like an opportune time to arrest them.

Those are called "unaliable rights"; most Constitutional rights are afforded to non-US citizens on US soil. Whether that's right or wrong, it's also the law. I suppose the police would be heavily outnumbered, and the right to congregate peacefully, albiet for a short period of time, outweighs the trouble of rounding them up for deportation.

Well, while we do grant the right to peacefully gather and protest that doesn't mean that you can't be arrested during that time for other reasons. Do you think that if murderers or drug dealers marched in protest we wouldn't arrest them? Your right to protest has nothing to do with laws you have violated.

Call me simplistic, but just abolish welfare, make everyone a US citizen who wants to, providing they pass a basic test to uphold the basic rights and laws of this country, tax 'em like the rest of us, and boot out the everyone else that doesn't want to be a US citizen, unless they're visiting on travel/business/entertainment.

What does abolishing welfare have to do with illegal aliens being made citizens?

And if you grant them all amnesty and make them citizens what does that say to the millions who went through the proper legal channels to become citizens?

Then of course you are assuming that those who don't want to be a US citizen, don't want to pay taxes, or have committed crimes will just step up with everyone else. It doesn't work. All you've done is pulled out the truly desparate who were too impatient or too in need to wait for the naturalization process to go through. The rest are still undocumented and free to do whatever.

 

[Swift]

I guess I'm "laid-back" compared to some of you, in that I don't place illegal immigrants on the same level of criminal as child molesters. Here's the thing: you can't unflood your basement until you fix the leak. Deporting 12 million people does nothing if they can just come right back in. The real problem lies with our lax border security (both Mexican and Canadian borders), and a lack of labor enforcement. Kicking out the illegals treats the symptom, not the disease. American companies will go down to Mexico to recruit workers, promising them a free pass across the border and under-the-table paychecks. The company can then pay them below minimum wage, and not have to pay social security, workers' comp, and other employment fees that cost companies tons of money. These are the real criminals who are 1)smuggling workers across the border, 2)violating basic labor laws, and 3)cheating the tax system. This is what needs to stop before anything else will. Like you said, we have to make it disadvantageous for companies to give work to illegal immigrants, which will then make it disadvantageous for immigrants to come here in the first place.

Yep!

Oh, I agree with the Canadian thing too. A there are a good amount of Canadian illegal workers as well.

I don't put them in the same category as child molesters. That's a "crime against humantiy". I put them in the same category as tax cheaters and the like.

But you're right about the problem and the solution. But it needs to happen at the same time. We need to deport the illegals that are here AND make it bad for the employers at the same time.

 

[Kylehnat]

Well, while we do grant the right to peacefully gather and protest that doesn't mean that you can't be arrested during that time for other reasons. Do you think that if murderers or drug dealers marched in protest we wouldn't arrest them? Your right to protest has nothing to do with laws you have violated.

That "evidence" is circumstantial. Kind of guilt by association. There would be no way to prove that any given person in that drug-dealer crowd is actually guilty of dealing. Likewise, there is no way to prove that anyone who marched yesterday was actually an illegal immigrant (though most of them were). Of course, if you throw a dart at a dartboard, you'll probably score some points, but I know a couple people who marched yesterday in Seattle who are not illegal immigrants. In every tuna net, there's always a couple of dolphins.

 

[Swift]

That "evidence" is circumstantial. Kind of guilt by association. There would be no way to prove that any given person in that drug-dealer crowd is actually guilty of dealing. Likewise, there is no way to prove that anyone who marched yesterday was actually an illegal immigrant (though most of them were). Of course, if you throw a dart at a dartboard, you'll probably score some points, but I know a couple people who marched yesterday in Seattle who are not illegal immigrants. In every tuna net, there's always a couple of dolphins.

I'm still in awe over the fact that people were in protest against the gov't about THEIR illegal immagration.

We should've been deporting people left and right from these gatherings. It's like Back to the Future. We knew when and where the lightning was going to strike, but we didn't get the Delorean down the street at the right time. Just careless actually.

 

[Kylehnat]

I'm still in awe over the fact that people were in protest against the gov't about THEIR illegal immagration.

When put that way, it is pretty perplexing

 

[Pupik]

Well, while we do grant the right to peacefully gather and protest that doesn't mean that you can't be arrested during that time for other reasons. Do you think that if murderers or drug dealers marched in protest we wouldn't arrest them? Your right to protest has nothing to do with laws you have violated.

Just not enough law enforcement available, I suppose?

What does abolishing welfare have to do with illegal aliens being made citizens?

I'm saying if that the "floodgates" were opened to allow amnesty, i don't think they should just get a free ride. But if they work, and paid legally/pay taxes, stay out of legal trouble...then the welfare card needn't be played. But it would be stupid to allow people into the country just to mooch off the system.

And if you grant them all amnesty and make them citizens what does that say to the millions who went through the proper legal channels to become citizens?

I guess I just got lucky, then. Didn't you?

Then of course you are assuming that those who don't want to be a US citizen, don't want to pay taxes, or have committed crimes will just step up with everyone else. It doesn't work. All you've done is pulled out the truly desparate who were too impatient or too in need to wait for the naturalization process to go through. The rest are still undocumented and free to do whatever.

Then how do you propose proper immigration? Will everyone have to marry a non-US citizen to a US citizen? Or will they have to sneak in, and apply later? Or will they have to fight in a war to gain their citizenship posthumously? A big trouble is that naturalization is a huge Catch-22; you shouldn't get in illegally, but we'll offer you a limited way to become a citizen, if you're lucky enough. The immigration system is so screwed up it makes the US tax schedule took like child's play.

If there's an employer willing to pay people crummy wages for crummy work, why are some of us so appalled by the fact that there's illegals willing to do it while there's others who won't work? A wage is offered, and someone is taking it for a fair day's work. Is the employer wrong for offering a low wage that only illegal aliens would take? Or is it their way of abolishing minimum wage, as it only increases inflation?

 

[Joey D]

I'm still in awe over the fact that people were in protest against the gov't about THEIR illegal immagration.

We should've been deporting people left and right from these gatherings. It's like Back to the Future. We knew when and where the lightning was going to strike, but we didn't get the Delorean down the street at the right time. Just careless actually.

They have no right to protest, since they aren't citizens they aren't protected by the Consititution, therefore freespeech and right to assemble does not apply to them. They all should have been arrested and deported back to their own country. Really it can't be overly difficult to get a green card can it?

 

[TurboSmoke]

it was Blairs idea that CC got the job...

That sucks. Why would Blair refuse his resignation?

 

[FoolKiller]

That "evidence" is circumstantial. Kind of guilt by association. There would be no way to prove that any given person in that drug-dealer crowd is actually guilty of dealing. Likewise, there is no way to prove that anyone who marched yesterday was actually an illegal immigrant (though most of them were). Of course, if you throw a dart at a dartboard, you'll probably score some points, but I know a couple people who marched yesterday in Seattle who are not illegal immigrants. In every tuna net, there's always a couple of dolphins.

If you join a protest and say, "We the drug dealers want health care," or whatever they would protest about you have just made an admission of guilt. While it would not stand up in court because it is circumstantial it would create probable cause and allow for search warrants while you are being detained for up to 48 hours without indictment.

In the case of illegal immigrants marching down the street screaming about wanting amnesty, you can ask them for identification or proof of their citizenship. Legal immigrants have to be able to prove it to legally get a job so they have to have something that shows citizenship. If I were a legal immigrant going to one of these marches I would keep that proof on me.

The IRS knows exactly where hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are, because some of them actually pay taxes. But the IRS doesn't share this information with immigration.

What's funny is that any illegal immigrant who pays taxes had to commit fraud to do so because they don't have a verifiable social security number. I saw Treasury Secretary John Snow in an interview say that this does create a problem but it wasn't anything they would pursue. Translation: We got our money, so who cares?

I'm saying if that the "floodgates" were opened to allow amnesty, i don't think they should just get a free ride. But if they work, and paid legally/pay taxes, stay out of legal trouble...then the welfare card needn't be played. But it would be stupid to allow people into the country just to mooch off the system.

So we should abolish the welfare system so they can't abuse it? No free health care, no welfare checks, etc? I can agree with that. I'll agree with getting rid of welfare without illegal immigration being an issue.

I guess I just got lucky, then. Didn't you?

Why, because we were born here? Sorry that does not make me an immigrant. I am a descendant of immigrants. I am talking about people not born in the US who moved here and became citizens by following the legal channels. This would be my grandmother. This would be the Middle Eastern girl I work with. What do you say to them? Sorry we wasted your time?

Those who come here legally, work hard, and go through the proper documentation process need to be respected and amnesty will just disrespect them.

Amnesty will also send a message to everyone who wants to come here that they just need to sneak in and then hide and whine until they get amnesty too.

Then how do you propose proper immigration? Will everyone have to marry a non-US citizen to a US citizen? Or will they have to sneak in, and apply later? Or will they have to fight in a war to gain their citizenship posthumously? A big trouble is that naturalization is a huge Catch-22; you shouldn't get in illegally, but we'll offer you a limited way to become a citizen, if you're lucky enough. The immigration system is so screwed up it makes the US tax schedule took like child's play.

Thousands of people manage to immigrate legally every year. I will agree that the immigration process is long, drawn out, and stinks of government stupidity.

I say increase the quota a little each year so we don't get swamped and streamline the paperwork. Hell give me control of the process and I will fix it. In all reality everything should be no different than getting all the paperwork done for a newborn and then add in a background check. No background check should take more than a month. Then you keep them on a probationary period for their first five years in the country and as long as they don't break any laws (minor violations, such as traffic violations, are excusable) they then become a full citizen.

If there's an employer willing to pay people crummy wages for crummy work, why are some of us so appalled by the fact that there's illegals willing to do it while there's others who won't work? A wage is offered, and someone is taking it for a fair day's work. Is the employer wrong for offering a low wage that only illegal aliens would take? Or is it their way of abolishing minimum wage, as it only increases inflation?

I don't like it because it is an illegal immigrant. They aren't paying income tax to help fund the services our government provides us, yet they use them. It's like sneaking into a movie and thinking you shouldn't get kicked back out because you were the only person who properly disposed of your trash.

Legal immigrants will do those same jobs and after paying taxes they will probably take home about the same in the end. They won't notice the difference, but if a native-born American decides they want to do that job for that wage they can without fear that they will be outbid illegally.



An ironic thing that I realized while typing this. The same politicians that want to raise minimum wage are the same ones that act like illegal immigrants are a good thing because they will do the jobs that Americans refuse to do, at minimum wage, for less than minimum wage. By allowing illegal immigrants to work for less than minimum wage doesn't that kind of circumvent their whole purpose?

I'll make a deal: Abolish minimum wage and I will accept amnesty for illegal immigrants. Let them pay taxes on their $2 an hour.

 

[a6m5]

On famine's suggestion: In Oregon, our state actually issues driving license to illegal immigrants. But if you are a U.S. Citizen or someone living here legally, you are to provide all the necessary documentation proving who you are. Also, Portland Police is prohibited from asking if someone is here legally or illegally. My guess for this would be to get cooperation from illegals living here locally, but still doens't make it right.

On illegals paying taxes: I've heard people suggesting that IRS should stop giving tax breaks to employers who employs illegal immigrant workers with false Social Security Numbers. That tells me that IRS(i.e. Federal Government) already has info on millions of illegals living in the States, but they just don't care.

On immigration: Plenty of immigrants come into this country legally. It is not like the Mexicans are being oppressed by their government or are starving in their country. How some of them break into this country, then demand rights in a public demonstration just baffles me.

 

[Diego440]

On immigration: Plenty of immigrants come into this country legally. It is not like the Mexicans are being oppressed by their government or are starving in their country. How some of them break into this country, then demand rights in a public demonstration just baffles me.

I'm quite sure immigrants go the US to find better job/life opportunities. To get away from hunger, oppression and the like.

 

[a6m5]

I'm quite sure immigrants go the US to find better job/life opportunities. To get away from hunger, oppression and the like.

If people were crossing the borders illegally to escape from hunger or oppression, I'd think that's justifiable. But as far as I know, Mexico is a poor country, but is not experiencing neither. There is nothing wrong with seeking better life for you and your family, but you should have to play by the rules, just like everybody else.

 

[Diego440]

If people were crossing the borders illegally to escape from hunger or oppression, I'd think that's justifiable. But as far as I know, Mexico is a poor country, but is not experiencing neither. There is nothing wrong with seeking better life for you and your family, but you should have to play by the rules, just like everybody else.

by all means, do it legally, I agree. But my point is the reason why they are immigrating. You're saying they're not being opressed nor hungry enough to immigrate.

My point is that in Mexico and in other 3rd world countries, you have to work really hard for about 5 years to be able to afford the initial payment on a crappy car (like an Opel Corsa, with no A/C, manual windows and everything in its most basic form). While in the US you can buy a used medium-level car for about half the amount and anyone can buy it.

It's better conditions what people are looking for. Since I'm on the car subject, here's my case:

I worked in Venezuela for two years... and even if I saved all of my salary and didn't use it to buy food and/or pay the rent, I wouldn't have been able to afford an entry level car. I had to drive around in my 20-year-old Mustang which I couldn't afford to repair much, unless it was something small, like a flat tyre or a broken window... besides, it didn't make much sense to fix it up too much because then it would get broken into and even stolen.

Now, I've been living in Spain for a little more than two years and although I've not had the need for a car, I'm buying one. And the car isn't old at all, it's a 2001 Ford Mondeo. And although I don't have a fixed salary (I work freelance), I can afford it.

So that's my point. Developed countries give their people more growth opportunities. That is basically what immigrants are looking for. And since they can't get it through legal means, they enter the country illegaly. Which I don't think is right, but I understand.