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- WFG9
US S.E. and Porsche
- Thread starter Talentless
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- 10,081
- WFG9
I heard Porsche was doing well.
Porsche is doing well, but for how long after the release of the Cayenne remains to be seen. The BS over quarterly reports is Porsche's lame excuse for staying mysterious. Why let people know just how profitable Porsche is? Do you think that after 30 years, a 911 really costs US$50,000 to make? What major research have they done? What groundbreaking materials have they invested in? The past two revisions have been such minor tweaks, it barely counts as a new model year. Even the 997 due out in a year or so looks strongly like the 996. The Cayenne is new, but it shares many components with its VW sibling, engine notwithstanding. Sure, the NYSE stock performance would be great, but I think buyers would realize just how much of a markup Porsche is...and how cheap it is to make. Kinda loses something, doens't it?
Right, that's just it. It doesn't cost that much. It cost a lot less. It's a small car with an old -- but good -- engine. Even the drivetrain doesn't cost much (rear engine, rear drive). A quick glance at http://autos.yahoo.com/porsche/ reveals the base-level 911 Carrera 2 to be $67,900. That's a lot. I can't imagine that 3,000 lb car to have more than $10,000 in materials, then add probably $5,000 in labor (on an assembly line, that's quite excessive). So why is $15,000 in labor & materials costing me more than 4 times that -- before options? Because they can. Law of supply and demand.
But now let's say that they open up their finances on the NYSE. Some people will see that they've been driving nothing more than reworked VW parts. Some will see ways that Porsche can cut corners at their factory. Some (shareholders) will actually try to force Porsche to make those cuts, driving profits ever further. Going public will have killed the golden goose. "Once again, something has been lost in the translation."
(And, um, re-read my first post. I didn't mean $50K profit, but $50K to get into the showroom.)
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Oh get off your horse. Try checking up on the subaru or such! They use a beatle engine w/ nothing much done other than that, if you estimate 15g's (which is probably WAY low) then I estimate 7k for them.
If you want to see markups, check out computers. Investers don't give a ****, they want the least production costs, and the highest profits. If that came out, (porsche price) than they would go UP in value not down. People buy a name and preformance, they don't car how much went into it.
Also, base material is not all of the cost for companies like porsche. How about design? Testing? All the culmination of technologies and such from the early 50's is an icon. Ford blots together something new farily often... Of couse most of the time this "new thing" is ****. What isn't? The Corvettes, Ford Mustangs, Vipers. The things that have DEVELOPMENT put into them.
Of course, if you looked at a corvette, I think you would find they spend less on "raw materials" and Labor than porshe for relitively the same ammount of cash, but the porsche is more refined.
Let me know when you see that you're arguing the same point.
(What horse?) Vat_man's post aside, I know what you meant. I know Porsche doesn't spend a lot to produce a 911, and that was what I was trying to protray. I estimated on the high end just to "prove" that they're still making a killing.
First: I've been in the computer field for more than 20 years. Computer hardware and software margins have been slimmer than paper since 1986.
Second: Prices could go down, prices could go up. I say "down" because demand would be lower, due to "Third" below....
Third: Do you work in the luxury market? I do. Do you know many people who are in Porsche's target market? I do. They damn well care how much it costs. It's called "Percieved Value". For example, Krell charges US$8,000 for their HTS2 pre/pro. They justify that with spoutages about high-quality capacitors, gold tracings, etc. Does it really cost that much [after profits]? As an EE, I can tell you "Heck, no". But they're a private company so they do as they please. Now let's take Marantz, a one-time high-end manufacturer. Then they went public, and their reputation went down the toilet once people realised it was re-worked parts from Taiwan. Sure, their stuff sounds the same, but it just...doesn't...sound...the same.
So how much has the design changed over the past 10 years? Or even 20 years? How about since the 911's inception? Not much, really. At least, nothing that wasn't obtained exclusively at Porsche. Remember, they've always been part of VAG.
The base Mustang is still 1/3 the price of the base 911. This the result of two things: supply and demand; and perceived value. The new SVT Cobra is a beast; 390 supercharged horsies. It even handles well -- and not just "for a Mustang". Yet it's just $35,000. Why? Well, who'd buy a $50,000 Mustang? We all know it's still a Ford, and we all know what a Ford is like! "Brand engineering never tasted so good!"
Oh, no question about refinement. Skoda is more refined than Chevy. "Never underestimate the power of chee^H^H^H^Hmarketing."
(What horse?) Vat_man's post aside, I know what you meant. I know Porsche doesn't spend a lot to produce a 911, and that was what I was trying to protray. I estimated on the high end just to "prove" that they're still making a killing.
First: I've been in the computer field for more than 20 years. Computer hardware and software margins have been slimmer than paper since 1986.
Second: Prices could go down, prices could go up. I say "down" because demand would be lower, due to "Third" below....
Third: Do you work in the luxury market? I do. Do you know many people who are in Porsche's target market? I do. They damn well care how much it costs. It's called "Percieved Value". For example, Krell charges US$8,000 for their HTS2 pre/pro. They justify that with spoutages about high-quality capacitors, gold tracings, etc. Does it really cost that much [after profits]? As an EE, I can tell you "Heck, no". But they're a private company so they do as they please. Now let's take Marantz, a one-time high-end manufacturer. Then they went public, and their reputation went down the toilet once people realised it was re-worked parts from Taiwan. Sure, their stuff sounds the same, but it just...doesn't...sound...the same.
So how much has the design changed over the past 10 years? Or even 20 years? How about since the 911's inception? Not much, really. At least, nothing that wasn't obtained exclusively at Porsche. Remember, they've always been part of VAG.
The base Mustang is still 1/3 the price of the base 911. This the result of two things: supply and demand; and perceived value. The new SVT Cobra is a beast; 390 supercharged horsies. It even handles well -- and not just "for a Mustang". Yet it's just $35,000. Why? Well, who'd buy a $50,000 Mustang? We all know it's still a Ford, and we all know what a Ford is like! "Brand engineering never tasted so good!"
Oh, no question about refinement. Skoda is more refined than Chevy. "Never underestimate the power of chee^H^H^H^Hmarketing."
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I was precieving this argument (collectively) as Porsche is bad because of this. Anyway...
Yes, I know MANY people that are in the top market for cars. I live in a VERY wealthy neighborhood where many own expensive cars. None of the people that I know buy them for their "manufactured value" they use and buy them 1. because they work VERY well 2. Because their resale value is on par with anything 3. They love them everything. Hadling looks ect. --- Yes I agree that they care what they cost initially, everyone wants a good deal --- however, most would not care how much Porsche SPENDS to make that product.
But of course, the Porsche 911 is an icon, and one that is in the middle market. Mabye I would be concerned if a Bentley that I just paid $400000 for was made from counterfeit materials, but a Porsche? Comon, people who buy them knows that they are a VW offshoot (although Porsche designed the beatle, VW didn't design the 911) and like them beacuse of that. That is history.
Would you condem Lambourghini how because they are owned by Audi (and subsiquently now by VW because of association)? Probably not, because you know that Lambo is a good product and will benifit from the germans, rather than fail because of it.
As for the 911's build quality, have you read any reviews by the latest magazines? The electronics that have been added to them and the 4wd now standard is more advanced than most GT cars (You know the american stock kinda ones) get. The active suspensions ect. Compairing the watercooled Flat6 to the Beetle engine is like compairing the VW engine to the one used in the testarossa, both are the same config, but are VERY different.
However, As you stated about about the company coming apart because of precived flaws (using japanese reworked stuff) are you saying that will effect porsche? Every time that you read an article about porsche, or watch a show dedicated to the history of porsche, you will find that they SAY it was based upon a VW (initially) and only became the way it is today because of racing. --- to specifically address your comment: I do not believe that Porsche is using "cut rate" stuff in their cars, and if they are, and are audited, then it might come to pass that Porsche's day in the sun will end. But also, it might now phase them at all.... Who knows, untill they go public, or release figures it will just be conjecture.
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Oh and anyone that wants it, they can find a copy of the fiscal (annual) reports at: http://www3.porsche.com/english/usa/company/annualreport/default.htm
I really hope there's no malice or animosity from this discussion.... 
No worse than any other company who puts money at the top of their priority list.
Right, Porsche the icon -- the mysticism, the great car, the whole package. Sure, Porsche the cars won't change (it's better than ever right now) when they go public, but the company will. Now when you have investors in charge instead of "car guys", that can lead to problems. One perfect case in point: Jaguar. Raise your hands all who think the X-Type is a true Jaguar. Sure, it's built by Jag, sold by Jag, looks a heck of a lot like a Jag, but it's a 4WD Mondeo underneath. The existence of the S-Type and X-Type (i.e., since the beginning of Ford's -- a public company -- ownership) has seriously changed Jaguar's image in the public. At what point before 2001 did you think that a Jaguar would be competing directly with a base-level BMW 3-Series?
That is my major point of contention: The 911 won't change; the company will. Over time, this will affect the car. In fact, it probably already has. Why else would Porsche enter the SUV market? Besides the fact that people already prefer the mechanically similar VW Taureg, the whole thing is ill-conceived. Porsche has never been about anything but performance coupes & convertibles. Over time this affects not the quality of the cars, but what cars are produced. Were Porsche to go public today, I don't think you'll see any changes in the next 5 years. The Carrera GT would go through as is, but about 10 years from now you could see fewer flat-6's and more V8's, twin-turbo V6's...some unfortunately VAG-standard components. There's nothing wrong with those engines, but they sure aren't Porsche engines. Things like this have happened with every merger, every public company, with every need for increased profits.
And yes, Lambo's image has changed. It no longer has that harsh Italian edge. It's a better ride, a safer one, too, but there's not as much thrill as the Countach. Even the Chrysler-sponsered Diablo had a bit more character.
Keep this in mind: I'm not saying Porsche is doomed. As long as they keep private, as long as they keep fighting for their (semi)independance, they'll be the Porsche we've always known and loved.
"The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history."
No worse than any other company who puts money at the top of their priority list.
Right, Porsche the icon -- the mysticism, the great car, the whole package. Sure, Porsche the cars won't change (it's better than ever right now) when they go public, but the company will. Now when you have investors in charge instead of "car guys", that can lead to problems. One perfect case in point: Jaguar. Raise your hands all who think the X-Type is a true Jaguar. Sure, it's built by Jag, sold by Jag, looks a heck of a lot like a Jag, but it's a 4WD Mondeo underneath. The existence of the S-Type and X-Type (i.e., since the beginning of Ford's -- a public company -- ownership) has seriously changed Jaguar's image in the public. At what point before 2001 did you think that a Jaguar would be competing directly with a base-level BMW 3-Series?
That is my major point of contention: The 911 won't change; the company will. Over time, this will affect the car. In fact, it probably already has. Why else would Porsche enter the SUV market? Besides the fact that people already prefer the mechanically similar VW Taureg, the whole thing is ill-conceived. Porsche has never been about anything but performance coupes & convertibles. Over time this affects not the quality of the cars, but what cars are produced. Were Porsche to go public today, I don't think you'll see any changes in the next 5 years. The Carrera GT would go through as is, but about 10 years from now you could see fewer flat-6's and more V8's, twin-turbo V6's...some unfortunately VAG-standard components. There's nothing wrong with those engines, but they sure aren't Porsche engines. Things like this have happened with every merger, every public company, with every need for increased profits.
And yes, Lambo's image has changed. It no longer has that harsh Italian edge. It's a better ride, a safer one, too, but there's not as much thrill as the Countach. Even the Chrysler-sponsered Diablo had a bit more character.
Keep this in mind: I'm not saying Porsche is doomed. As long as they keep private, as long as they keep fighting for their (semi)independance, they'll be the Porsche we've always known and loved.
"The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history."
- 2,058
Originally posted by Hooligan
I really hope there's no malice or animosity from this discussion....
Right, Porsche the icon -- the mysticism, the great car, the whole package. Sure, Porsche the cars won't change (it's better than ever right now) when they go public, but the company will. Now when you have investors in charge instead of "car guys", that can lead to problems. One perfect case in point: Jaguar. Raise your hands all who think the X-Type is a true Jaguar. Sure, it's built by Jag, sold by Jag, looks a heck of a lot like a Jag, but it's a 4WD Mondeo underneath. The existence of the S-Type and X-Type (i.e., since the beginning of Ford's -- a public company -- ownership) has seriously changed Jaguar's image in the public. At what point before 2001 did you think that a Jaguar would be competing directly with a base-level BMW 3-Series?
I sure as hell hope this will not happen. Note however, that Porsche is owned by the public, I can't remmeber (check the link above) but I think some 40+% are owned in public shares.
The above mention of Jaguar however is not a good example. Jag didn't go from a good car to a bad one because of PUBLIC ownership, Jag went from a good (sort of, people still have mixed opionions on this) to a bad car because they are owned by FORD who classically ruin good marques when they take them over. Enzo Ferrari saw this, and that is why in the 60's he backed out of a takeover deal with ford (inception of the GT40).
I don't really know if the SUV is a reflection of change of the company, or reflection of the market economy. Porsche is trying to make a bid in the section of market that currently is being held by Merc, Lincon and BMW. It actually is a good plan to diversify, because in doing so, it will create more of a profit to support development of "NEW" cars. Also, the toureg has NOT been released to the public (let alone jurnalists) so no one knows what it will be like. If you look at VW magazines and such they are doing exactly what the Porsche people are doing... complaining. They don't know what to think of it, and wish VW would never introduce it... so it is not just porsche enthusiests that don't like this new SUV image. Also Note: I wonder wether porsche and VW will have these two vehicles in Europe? Not all their profits are NA sales, so it would be interesting to see... SUV's don't generally do well over there.
Also note that when the 944 came out, it was slated to replace the 911, as was the 928 ect, but it didn't catch on, and people still liked that multi century old 911 style car.
If porsche moves away from the current boxer design, that would be a shame. But switching to a V6 may not be a bad thing. People that are early enthusiests still say that the only good Porcshe is a air cooled one, and that the water cooled are crap... Every generation has something they like about a car. However, what they like isn't nessesarily what is the best.
I agree, some of the harshness has been toned down (I assume styling wise, as with the 4wd it is said it handles like the VT) but Lambo has been doing that for years. Have you noticed that as newer and newer lambo's have been released that they have been siginificantly changed from each other? They latest non Audi lambo's have a sleek appearance, and none of the jutting out air intakes ala early diablo's and Countach.
I agree, this is key to their survival. Saab was a great vehicle untill GM, ect ect. I think we will see some more dareing vehicles once the depression ends, then marques will have more resources and clientel to purchase more exotic cars.
[/quote]
"The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history." [/QUOTE]
I quite agree.
Oh and no there are no ill feelings, I love debating things like this. It refreshes the mind.
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- WFG9
SALES DOWN, REVENUES UP
It's been a mixed year for Porsche. Sales figures for America (year until July) reveal that they sold 2,300 fewer cars there than in the previous year. The silver lining was that 911 sales were up 14%.
Worldwide, Porsche sold over 54,000 cars, also down on the previous year, but by only 0.6%. Over 32,000 911s were sold, an increase of 21%.
The increased numbers of 911s being sold helped Porsche's financials though, with Porsche Group revenue up by almost 10% to about £2.6 billion.
Pistonheads
It's been a mixed year for Porsche. Sales figures for America (year until July) reveal that they sold 2,300 fewer cars there than in the previous year. The silver lining was that 911 sales were up 14%.
Worldwide, Porsche sold over 54,000 cars, also down on the previous year, but by only 0.6%. Over 32,000 911s were sold, an increase of 21%.
The increased numbers of 911s being sold helped Porsche's financials though, with Porsche Group revenue up by almost 10% to about £2.6 billion.
Pistonheads
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- WFG9
NO DISCOUNTS SAYS WIEDKING Thursday 26th September
Accept the price we'll reduce production says Porsche Boss
Porsche's Chief Executive, Wendelin Wiedking recently came down hard on Porsche dealers in the US who were offering discounts to members of the Porsche Club of America.
During the summer, all 52,000 members of the PCNA were sent coupons entitling them to $500 off a Boxster or $1000 off a Boxster S. When Wiedking got wind of this he was not amused and immediately stopped the program saying the company would reduce production before it would reduce prices. He's certain keen to protect the elite image the company has taken so long to build.
The measure was deemed a smart move by Porsche's North American President Fred Schwab. He can't control production and figured that the voucher scheme was more cost effective than traditional advertising.
PH
Accept the price we'll reduce production says Porsche Boss
Porsche's Chief Executive, Wendelin Wiedking recently came down hard on Porsche dealers in the US who were offering discounts to members of the Porsche Club of America.
During the summer, all 52,000 members of the PCNA were sent coupons entitling them to $500 off a Boxster or $1000 off a Boxster S. When Wiedking got wind of this he was not amused and immediately stopped the program saying the company would reduce production before it would reduce prices. He's certain keen to protect the elite image the company has taken so long to build.
The measure was deemed a smart move by Porsche's North American President Fred Schwab. He can't control production and figured that the voucher scheme was more cost effective than traditional advertising.
PH
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- WFG9
Well, that and the fact that the larger sticker and the increased sales of the 911 was more than enough to cover the decline in Boxster sales which is what obviously drove the overall fall in units sold.
I don't see what all the fuss is about. If a company produces a premium product that's relatively cheap to manufacture, and then can get away with charging premium prices, then they're on a good thing - and it is a hell of a product.
Gran Turismo7058
(Banned)
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I just want Porsche back at Lemans
