Venezuela's Hugo Chavez Dies

  • Thread starter Liquid
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Well, that is a bit of a shocker. No, not a shocker, more a surprise.
 
When Nicolas Maduro kicks the bucket, will he be replaced by Francisco Tostone?

Que Viva Fidel. Who else is this hijo de puta going to outlive?
 
I'm sure he once claimed that the Americans used a secret weapon to give him cancer.

He later dismissed his comments as 'thinking out loud'. Now, I know Chavez wasn't the most popular bloke with the USA, but that sounds very tin hat.
 
Ah, the only guy I know who didn't despise Mercenaries 2 because of the bad physics and lazy programming, but rather for political reasons.
 
TyrrellRacing
Will this affect Maldonado's crashing career ?
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Maldonado/Williams' contract is with PDVSA, not Chavez directly. It can go either way, but for now he should be safe (and the rest of the PDVSA drivers like Rodolfo Gonzalez) until such time as the Venezuelans get tired of being patriotic.
I doubt they'd break their contract early and I doubt Williams would sign a contract that allowed PDVSA to get out easily.

It may well mean that Williams might have to find another sponsor for 2014 though.
 
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NissanSkylineN1
:guilty:

We will miss you Chavez.
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haitch40
You seem to be the only one here saying that. Although a lot of famous people on twitter are saying that.

I don't know much about him so I can't comment.
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Chavez was a devout supporter of a socialist economic system and had his government nationalize major industries, health care, and education. He despised capitalism and did not believe in the profit motive. Basically, he supports the same economic policies that have held back Cuba considerably and actually led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

There are numerous examples throughout history that show socialist economic policies don't work. They always end in failure. There are also a few good examples that capitalism does work - or rather, that capitalism doesn't allow powerful control-freaks to get the power they want, enticing them to rail against capitalism using all sorts of propaganda, eventually taking control of the government, implementing socialist policies, and finally driving the nation to collapse. Or, more simply: Capitalism works until stupid people decide it doesn't, then go and ruin everything by doing it their stupid way.
 
Works if people follow the stoopid roolz. But when they feel they're above the law, bad things happen.

The problem with nationalized industries is that there's no drive to excel. Even some of the best serving ones eventually fail because having no profit motive means no profits to improve services with.

Sometimes it works... but you rely on very tight government control and regulation of the nationalized industry for it to work. You have to keep pushing for better efficiency. Better profitability. Basically... run it like a capital venture.
 
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:lol:
 
I don't know that much about him but was Chavez really that bad? Most people seem to mention him in the same disparaging tones as they did Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. While he was a dictator and slightly crazy, he was more likely to launch into some crazy conspiracy theory, rather than launch a nuclear missile. Yet people seemed to despise him on the same level as they do the Kims or Ahmadinejad when there are worse tyrants out there - like Mugabe and Lukashenko - and I cannot find any definite reason why. Rather than using Venezuela's oil reserves to line his own pockets, he put the money towards social programs, including free health care and subsidised food for the poor. And while there was probably systemic corruption in his government, this is South America that we're talking about. Corruption is nothing unusual.

So Chavez didn't set up gulags to punish dissidents and their families like Kim Jong-il did. And he didn't engaged in dangerous rhetoric about his neighbours the way Ahmadinejad does. Nor was he so inept at managing his economy that he created a simultaneous population explosion and famine that will take a decade to undo the way Ceausescu did. He didn't engage in racist policies that led to hyper-inflation the way Mugabe has. He never suppressed the population to create a year-long civil war the way al'Assas has. He never held an entire continent hostage to force his allies to pay even more money to him, the way Lukashenko did (by blocking Russia's access to Belarus' natural gas pipelines).

So what did Chavez actually do to deserve the level of hatred that he got? I'm not defending him by any means - the man was a dictator. But looking at some of his contemporaries, I find it strange that he is held up as being similar to the Kims or Ahmadinejad when I cannot find anything truly heinous to separate him out from other dictators who are arguably worse. Could it be that Chavez's only real "crime", as it were, was that he was an outspoken critic of America? The brunt of the criticism directed at him always seemed to come after he condemned America's actions in some way or other, so I think a lot of his reputation comes from the American media launching their own salvo back at him, and both sides got carried away with it.
 
I'll put it this way:

You build a strong nation by strengthening the weak, not weakening the strong.

That's exactly what Chavez did: he weakened everything. He had the State acquire most companies, land and money, but once he took over, he didn't make them work.

For example, Venezuela used to be a country that exported oil, electricity, and many basic-needs food, such as cereals, grains, meat, poultry, and a bunch more. Nowadays, Venezuela imports everything, including gasoline. Even worse, the companies the State has taken over, have stopped working or have worked very defficiently, including PDVSA, the country's oil refinement and commercializing company. There's huge shortages of almost everything, including most basic-need-food: cooking oil, sugar, cereals, diapers, salt, milk, etc. It's also considered normal if power goes out less than 3 times per day in most parts of the country.

The violence levels in Venezuela are through the roof. Only in Caracas there are between 40 and 120 deaths every week... that's more than a country at war. At the same time, the hate speech that Chavez blurted out only made that number go higher, blaming the well-off families on all of the country's problems. Keep in mind most of these families built this country and made it one of the leading industries in the region. Nowadays, 1 out of every 5 cars is armor-plated, and most of those are escorted by armed guards.

Financial insecurity also was a huge problem. When Chavez came into office (in 1998), one dollar was worth 564 bolivars (Bs.). Today for every dollar you get Bs. 26,000 (if you're lucky). It is also illegal for anyone within the country to have dollars, unless you get special government permission. Indeed, venezuela has the cheapest gas on the planet (less than 3 cents per litre), but Venezuelans pay the highest price for everything else. I have a 2011 Hyundai Getz, a model which, incidentally, despite being from 2011, is unchanged since 2003. The car cost me (new) the equivalent to $36,500. The 2012 model (which is exactly the same car) costs $40,000. A new Cherokee or Explorer is hardly below $182,000.

Incidentally, a GOOD monthly salary hardly goes over $1,000.

Before 1998 all of this wasn't unheard of, but it never was this exaggerated.



prisonermonkeys
I don't know that much about him...

Could it be that Chavez's only real "crime", as it were, was that he was an outspoken critic of America?
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Please, just stop.
 
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Keef
Chavez was a devout supporter of a socialist economic system and had his government nationalize major industries, health care, and education. He despised capitalism and did not believe in the profit motive. Basically, he supports the same economic policies that have held back Cuba considerably and actually led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

There are numerous examples throughout history that show socialist economic policies don't work. They always end in failure. There are also a few good examples that capitalism does work - or rather, that capitalism doesn't allow powerful control-freaks to get the power they want, enticing them to rail against capitalism using all sorts of propaganda, eventually taking control of the government, implementing socialist policies, and finally driving the nation to collapse. Or, more simply: Capitalism works until stupid people decide it doesn't, then go and ruin everything by doing it their stupid way.
Click to expand...

Diego440
I'll put it this way:

You build a strong nation by strengthening the weak, not weakening the strong.

That's exactly what Chavez did: he weakened everything. He had the State acquire most companies, land and money, but once he took over, he didn't make them work.

For example, Venezuela used to be a country that exported oil, electricity, and many basic-needs food, such as cereals, grains, meat, poultry, and a bunch more. Nowadays, Venezuela imports everything, including gasoline. Even worse, the companies the State has taken over, have stopped working or have worked very defficiently, including PDVSA, the country's oil refinement and commercializing company. There's huge shortages of almost everything, including most basic-need-food: cooking oil, sugar, cereals, diapers, salt, milk, etc. It's also considered normal if power goes out less than 3 times per day in most parts of the country.

The violence levels in Venezuela are through the roof. Only in Caracas there are between 40 and 120 deaths every week... that's more than a country at war. At the same time, the hate speech that Chavez blurted out only made that number go higher, blaming the well-off families on all of the country's problems. Keep in mind most of these families built this country and made it one of the leading industries in the region. Nowadays, 1 out of every 5 cars is armor-plated, and most of those are escorted by armed guards.

Financial insecurity also was a huge problem. When Chavez came into office (in 1998), one dollar was worth 564 bolivars (Bs.). Today for every dollar you get Bs. 26,000 (if you're lucky). It is also illegal for anyone within the country to have dollars, unless you get special government permission. Indeed, venezuela has the cheapest gas on the planet (less than 3 cents per litre), but Venezuelans pay the highest price for everything else. I have a 2011 Hyundai Getz, a model which, incidentally, despite being from 2011, is unchanged since 2003. The car cost me (new) the equivalent to $36,500. The 2012 model (which is exactly the same car) costs $40,000. A new Cherokee or Explorer is hardly below $182,000.

Incidentally, a GOOD monthly salary hardly goes over $1,000.

Before 1998 all of this wasn't unheard of, but it never was this exaggerated.
Click to expand...

As Margarete Thacher once put it, "The problem with socalism is that that you eventually run out of other people's money."
 
Diego440
Please, just stop.
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I'd like you to go back and re-read my post. I never said that Chavez was not a dictator. I never said that he did not do horrible things - only that while he did things that were horrible enough as they were, he was constantly and consistently portrayed as being on the same level as the likes of Kim Jong-il, who would have dissenters and their families sent off to gulags where they were used for medical experiments in developing North Korea's chemical weapons programme. For all his stand-over tactics, did Chavez ever resort to something so heinous as this at all, much less on a regular basis?

For all intents and purposes, Chavez seems to have been your typical dictator. He didn't really do anything that the average dictator didn't already do. So what I'm questioning is why the western media - particularly the American press - constantly made him out to be a dangerously-unstable lunatic who constantly threatened to undermine or destroy everything that everyone had ever worked towards achieving. And I suspect that because he was hyper-critical of American foreign policy - particularly during the Bush Administration - media outlets like FOX decided to get their own back by demonising him. Given that the media is so instrumental in influecing peoples' perceptions of world events because those people have no first-hand knowledge or experience of the situation themselves, Chavez was made out to be worse than he already was (which was bad enough to begin with), whilst the public had no awareness of dictators and tyrants who were and still are far more oppressive.
 
prisonermonkeys
I'd like you to go back and re-read my post. I never said that Chavez was not a dictator. I never said that he did not do horrible things - only that while he did things that were horrible enough as they were, he was constantly and consistently portrayed as being on the same level as the likes of Kim Jong-il, who would have dissenters and their families sent off to gulags where they were used for medical experiments in developing North Korea's chemical weapons programme. For all his stand-over tactics, did Chavez ever resort to something so heinous as this at all, much less on a regular basis?

For all intents and purposes, Chavez seems to have been your typical dictator. He didn't really do anything that the average dictator didn't already do. So what I'm questioning is why the western media - particularly the American press - constantly made him out to be a dangerously-unstable lunatic who constantly threatened to undermine or destroy everything that everyone had ever worked towards achieving. And I suspect that because he was hyper-critical of American foreign policy - particularly during the Bush Administration - media outlets like FOX decided to get their own back by demonising him. Given that the media is so instrumental in influecing peoples' perceptions of world events because those people have no first-hand knowledge or experience of the situation themselves, Chavez was made out to be worse than he already was (which was bad enough to begin with), whilst the public had no awareness of dictators and tyrants who were and still are far more oppressive.
Click to expand...

Can we please stop calling FOX mainstream? It is pretty clear by the way that the current administration lies to even what they consider State TV, NBC, they can put anything out to FOX. Why do you think that they purposely lied to the American Public for two weeks over the Bengazi Scandal and NBC did nothing to call them out on it? Because the administration refuses to answer questions from FOX, and treating them like the credible news organization that they are, and calling on some nobody from the Huffington Post.
 
Fox News :lol: What a farce. I can't read/watch anything by them or I crack up. Yes, I'm a die hard liberal.

Back to the thread topic, what impact will Chavez's death have on Venezuela, and for that matter the oil industry? Will there be a democracy now, or another dictator?
 
@prisonermonkeys: Yeah, but you also implied he did so many positive things that really his only 'crime' might've been talking trash about the US.

It's very hard for the current government's political party to leave office. The constitution dictates that the vicepresident must take the job and new elections should come within 30 days. But already the job went to someone else (someone designated by Chavez before he left for Cuba to get treatment) and the vicepresident hasn't taken the job either.

Chavez left for Cuba on December 10th (I think) and no one heard of him since. The strongest rumors suggest he was brain dead on December 30th and was taken off life support about a week ago. The news of his death has only confirmed everyone's suspicions, yet the government and the minions who work in it decided to lengthen the news and lie to everyone as long as possible.

Ridox2JZGTE
I wish there would be revolution there, a clean slate, a new leadership .. a better life.
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A revolution isn't as simple as it sounds. In fact, the closest we had to a revolution was Chavez, and look what he did to the country. This country is extremely divided, where 47% want democracy and 46% want this so-called revolution Chavez and Castro idealize yet have never been able to create. I've had my share of this revolution, I'm ready for some real democracy.

In 1998 Venezuela was a deeply flawed democracy, in 2013 we're an almost flawless autocracy.
 
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prisonermonkeys
I'd like you to go back and re-read my post. I never said that Chavez was not a dictator. I never said that he did not do horrible things - only that while he did things that were horrible enough as they were, he was constantly and consistently portrayed as being on the same level as the likes of Kim Jong-il, who would have dissenters and their families sent off to gulags where they were used for medical experiments in developing North Korea's chemical weapons programme. For all his stand-over tactics, did Chavez ever resort to something so heinous as this at all, much less on a regular basis?

For all intents and purposes, Chavez seems to have been your typical dictator. He didn't really do anything that the average dictator didn't already do. So what I'm questioning is why the western media - particularly the American press - constantly made him out to be a dangerously-unstable lunatic who constantly threatened to undermine or destroy everything that everyone had ever worked towards achieving. And I suspect that because he was hyper-critical of American foreign policy - particularly during the Bush Administration - media outlets like FOX decided to get their own back by demonising him. Given that the media is so instrumental in influecing peoples' perceptions of world events because those people have no first-hand knowledge or experience of the situation themselves, Chavez was made out to be worse than he already was (which was bad enough to begin with), whilst the public had no awareness of dictators and tyrants who were and still are far more oppressive.
Click to expand...

Honestly, you're out of line here. A tyrant is a tyrant, and they're all horrible regardless of degree. One murdered child is no less tragic than one hundred. The same goes for the welfare and dignity of a person and his or her rights once they've been trampled on.

What Fox or NBC have to say on the matter is totally irrelevant. Chavez was a bastard and died as one, though he never once suffered as much as the people his ambition affected.
 
Why am I not surprised that certain people are using this thread to bash socialism instead of paying respects for a cancer victim?

Seriously, guys?
 
Müle;8193847
Why am I not surprised that certain people are using this thread to bash socialism instead of paying respects for a cancer victim?

Seriously, guys?
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Mule used Trolling...

... it's not very effective.
 
...but i'm not trolling. Saying things like "good riddance" when someone dies of cancer is pretty classless, imo. I sure wouldn't want someone to say that about one of my relatives, even if he was the dictator of a socialist oil country.
 
The problem with politicians like this is that it's hard to get an unbiased view of what they're like and how well their policies work- especially if you consider news outlets such as Fox or Sky as factual.

It's interesting to see that organisations like Amnesty International have generally praised his human rights record, though have said there's been a few high profile, politically motivated arrests. But, as dictators go, he didn't seem to be overly dictator-y.

He also seemed to be motivated by doing the best he could for the average citizen in Venezuela, with free education up to university level, healthcare and the like. Didn't Venezuela come out top 5 in one of those "happiest citizens" surveys?

I know socialism is The Great Satan in the US, but Chavez seemed alright to me and I'm hoping his passing won't cause any problems in the region.
 

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