Venezuela's Hugo Chavez Dies

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The problem with politicians like this is that it's hard to get an unbiased view of what they're like and how well their policies work- especially if you consider news outlets such as Fox or Sky as factual.

It's interesting to see that organisations like Amnesty International have generally praised his human rights record, though have said there's been a few high profile, politically motivated arrests. But, as dictators go, he didn't seem to be overly dictator-y.
Amnesty site is down for me at the moment (DNS error throug the work servers) however I can't recall them praising his record at all, quite the opposite.

And its back....

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2012

so not praise at all.


Very much as Human Rights Watch have done on numerous occations, the latest being last year.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2012/07/17/tightening-grip-0

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/venezuela0712webwcover.pdf


He also seemed to be motivated by doing the best he could for the average citizen in Venezuela, with free education up to university level, healthcare and the like. Didn't Venezuela come out top 5 in one of those "happiest citizens" surveys?
Yes it has improved, however that doesn't make all of his aims worthwhile or for the advantage of the people.

Oh and your survey ranking it as the 5th happiest place in the world....

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...econd-happiest-place-on-earth-by-north-korea/

...was carried out by North Korea!!!!


I know socialism is The Great Satan in the US, but Chavez seemed alright to me and I'm hoping his passing won't cause any problems in the region.
Maybe because you don't live in Venezuela and attempt to practice free speech.
 
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Instead of focusing on all the negatives, how about you look at the positive things he did for Venezuela.
 
Instead of focusing on all the negatives, how about you look at the positive things he did for Venezuela.

I've looked at both and the balance falls very heavily on one side.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/05/opinion/ghitis-hugo-chavez/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

While he did raise the issue of poverty within the region, he also managed to achieve far less to resolve it than most of the rest of the region, and in failing to do so also wrecked democracy in his own country, undermined free-speech, encouraged corruption and politicised the military.
 
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Scaff

Ha, shows how wrong I can be. I went off links posted on Facebook that were generally praising Chavez.

Which yet again points out how difficult it is to get objective information about world leaders like this. When I was in Cuba, it was quite surprised to find out how positive people were about Castro, when I'd heard nothing but negatives about him.
 
I heard the news that he might be knocking on death's door about a week ago, when a radio talk show presenter was interviewing a journalist who had written about Venezuela under Chavez. Just as Diego440 said, the country is falling apart. I even heard that the presidential palace wasn't doing too well - paint was flaking off the walls and one of the balconies smelled of urine.

The old adage seems to ring true for Chavez's Venezuela - the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
 
Could you please give us some examples?

Chavez was adored by the smallfolk, and implacably opposed by the lordly.
That he ultimately failed to deliver even so much as housing to them is to his eternal discredit.

At last the USA can finally bring some true democracy to the country. :lol:

At the point of gun? That's standard imperial procedure, but the model is becoming tiresomely shopworn.

Respectfully yours,
Steve
 
Call it the Mega-Stockholm Syndrome. Dictators often have rabidly loyal followers and supporters.

Promise people the world, and they will do anything for you.

It's been nearly thirty years since we got rid of Ferdinand Marcos, and there are still people who believe he was the best President we ever had. Ignoring the lies, the cover-ups, the massacres, the corruption and the enormous amounts of money the First Couple spent covering up the problems of the country. Some of Imelda's projects were worthy of Alice in Wonderland. If she could have painted every leaf in Manila green for the visits of foreign dignitaries, she probably would have done so.

It took us this long to finally erase the huge debt started by the Marcoses to fund their vain vanity projects. And yet people still believe all that debt was the fault of the (admittedly inept) Presidents who came after him.

Well, duh. If the last guy on the toilet left a mountain of crap there, it's going to take a while to flush it out.
 
Dotini
Chavez was adored by the smallfolk, and implacably opposed by the lordly.

Who would you follow, someone who tells you that you have to work hard to get a car, a place to live, be able to afford holding up a family and that everything you want in life comes from the same hard work. Or someone who says you don't need to do anything, if you're poor I'll subsidize you, if your wife is pregnant, I'll subsidize you, if you go to jail, I'll subsidize you, if you don't have a job, I'll subsidize you, and the more kids you have, I'll subsidize you more and more. If you don't have a house, I'll give you a house. If you don't have a car/motorcycle, I'll give you one. Oh, and if by any chance I can't, you can blame it on the rich people and freely take it from them. People are easily maleable.

What Chavez did was promise riches for the poor, When he couldn't deliver, he blamed the better parts of society, claiming he has tried and tried and the rich part of the country (working in conjuction with the CIA, of course) didn't let him, so they are the enemy. We used to be a happy place, and indeed we are right now because we have an awesome climate and beach/mountains pretty closeby. But the amount of racial, social and financial tension Chavez created won't go away even after his death.

For the longest time in Venezuela, even if you were born poor, you could work hard and get an education and a decent job and live decently. Chavez made this difference look like the people with money are to blame because you don't have a car or a place to live in or money... when in reality, 75% of the workforce makes minimum wage, aside that most cities were planned for about 500% less people than they currently have.

In truth, everyone who works for the government benefitted immensely, including himself. The companies he took over (and by taking over in theory it means buying them off at the current market price, which none of the owners has been paid yet) failed to work. For instance: yes, he took over concrete and rebar makers and used them to build houses for the poor, but the materials they used to save a buck are so cheap that the first time it rained, they all crumbled. He aklso built new housing by taking over buildings that were either abandoned, or empty... which yes, makes a lot of sense. The only trouble is that when you put 500 families to live in an overcrowded place and don't put parking lots and don't condition the area for more people, chaos ensues. And that's just what happened here, you take an already congested area and throw in 500 families, you'll have a helhole pretty quickly.

Venezuela for the most part doesn't have a proper urban planning. So you'll often have three office buildings followed by a favela, followed by three living buildings, followed by a supermarket; it's all mixed up. So if you live in a good area, chances are you have a favela pretty closeby, and if on top of that you throw in a building full of increasingly needy families and to top it all off, make the building as unsafe as possible that it will propbably crumble within the year, you have adistaster in your hands.

The money part is even more preposterous, but equally true. Thankfully the company I work in doesn't need that many foreign products (advertising), but I have friends who work in the importing business. This is going to sound odd, and most people I tell it to won't believe me, but you need permission from the government to receive dollars to be able to pay for imported goods. The government is extremely slow and corrupt at giving these permissions, with at least an 18 month waiting list. This translates into two things:
1) People who can't wait are forced to buy dollars off the black market, which is what most of them do. A 'government issued' dollar costs 6.30 Bolivars, while a black market dollar costs between 20 and 30 bolivars, depending on how much you buy. It's such a profitable market that government officials actually sells the money through the black market and obviously make a bigger profit, thus why it's so hard to get them officialy.
2) People who can wait or simply can't afford to buy them off the black market wait in excess of a year to receive the permission to receive the money to buy goods.

We bought an iMac at work for roughly $3,000 last year. Yesterday we got a new one because we really needed one. The price? $12,500

This simply isn't consistent with a democracy or a happy place.

EDIT: I'm endlessly editing this post so I don't double post, sorry.

Human Rights Watch left Venezuela a long time ago and since then has been calling attention to it. There's a crapload of political prisoners here, many of whom have cancer and are as terminally ill as Chavez was. You want to take a guess at how many are receiving treatment and/or have been allowed in hospitals? I'll give you a hint, the number starts with zero. I posted a link to two posts I made a long time ago here, if you can stand it, click on them and look, then tell me again how fair this government was/is.
 
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Müle;8193847
Why am I not surprised that certain people are using this thread to bash socialism instead of paying respects for a cancer victim?

Seriously, guys?

Paying respects...



To a communist dictator?
 
I'll just leave this here and be more or less done with it.

I'm relieved Chavez is dead. I'm not happy about it, because I wasn't raised to celebrate these kinds of things, but at least I think this country I have chosen to live in has lost the anchor that kept it sinking. However, there are reasons why I am glad and why I will not miss him or his hate that actually brought out the worst in Venezuelans:

(article by Juan F de Leon - @@JuanFranciscoDL)

1. Chavez's authoritarian manner (which reflected a flaw probably most Venezuelans have), and his inability to engage in an honest dialogue with anyone that opposed him. Even from his death bed, he had a Supreme Court justice fired because she didn't agree with his politics.

2. His disrespect for the rule of law and his contribution to a climate of impunity in Venezuela. In 1999, Chavez re-wrote the Constitution to fit his needs, and yet he violated it almost on a daily basis. The rest of the population followed suit and crime exploded in Venezuela. In 14 years, our homicide multiplied exponentially from 22 homicides per 100.000 people to 118 per 100.000 people. While judges were busy trying to prove their political allegiance, only 11% of homicides led to a conviction.

3. His empty promises and the way he manipulated many Venezuelans to think he was really working for them. In 14 years Chavez built less public housing than any president before (he just publicized everything he made). Hospitals today have no resources, and if you go there in an emergency you must bring with you everything from medicines to surgical gloves and masks. He was better at blowing his own horn than getting things done.

4. The astounding level of corruption of the government. There was corruption before he got elected, but normally a government's scandals weren't made public until they handed power to the opposing party. Now we've heard about millions and millions of dollars vanishing in front of everybody's eyes, and his only reaction was to attack the media that revealed the corruption. The only politicians accused of corruption have been from parties that oppose Chavez, and mostly on trumped up charges. For example, Leopoldo Lopez (opposing leader) was never condemned by the courts but was still prevented for running for office. His crime? Using money from the wrong budget allocation to pay for the salaries of teachers and firemen -because the government withheld the appropriate funds.

5. The opportunities he missed. When Chavez took office, the price of oil was $9.30, and in 2008 it reached $126.33. There was so much good that could've been done with that money! And yet he decided to throw it away on corruption and buying elections and weapons. If he had used these resources well, 10.7% of Venezuelans would not be in extreme poverty.

6. His attacks on private property and entrepreneurship. Chavez nationalized hundreds of private companies, and pushed hundreds more towards bankruptcy. Not because he was a communist or a socialist, but simply because he wanted no one left with any power to oppose him. If everyone was a public employee, Chavez could force them to attend political rallies, and the opposition would not get any funding.

7. His overall hypocrisy on freedom and human rights. Chavez shut down more than 30 radio and television stations for being critical of his government, and denied access to foreign currency for newspapers to buy printing paper (regular citizens can't access foreign currency unless he authorized it), he imprisoned people without trial for years, and imprisoned people for crimes of opinion. He fired tens of thousands of public employees for signing a petition for a recall referendum and denied them access to public services and even ID cards and passports.

8. His hypocrisy regarding Venezuela's sovereignty. Chavez kicked out the Americans but then pulled down his pants for the Cubans, Russians, Chinese and Iranians. We have Cuban officers giving orders in the Venezuelan army. Chinese oil companies work with a higher margin of profit than any Western companies did. And he made it clear his alliances would be with governments that massacre their own people.

9. His hypocrisy on the issue of violence. He claimed this was a peaceful revolution but allowed illegal armed groups like Tupamaros, La Piedrita and FBLN to operate. He gave them weapons, and even had the Russians set up a Kalashnikov plant in Venezuela. He was critical of American wars but gave weapons to the Colombian guerrilla, whose only agenda is murder and drug-dealing.

10. His hypocrisy on democracy. His favorite insult for the opposition parties in Venezuela was "coupists", but he organized a coup in 1992, and the military that was loyal to him suggested they would support a coup in his favor if the opposition ever won the presidential elections. There was no democracy in his political party: he chose each of the candidates for the National Assembly and for city and state governments. When the opposition won the referendum that would have allowed to change the Constitution in 2007, he disavowed the results and figured out a way to change the articles and allow himself to be reelected as many times as he wanted. Chavez manipulated the elections in 2010 to make sure the opposition didn't get more than a third of seats in Parliament even though they got 51% of the popular vote. His democracy was made of paper, and he made sure there were no meaningful checks and balances and all institutions were his puppets.

Article on CNN.com
 
I thought the only people that would miss him were the ones that couldn't aim... Hopefully soon, he will be a forgotten memory.

Have a good one
 
Call it the Mega-Stockholm Syndrome. Dictators often have rabidly loyal followers and supporters.

Reminds me of a bunch of guys to whom successive governments of my country bowed down to, IIRC their boss lived in Rome. ;)
 
Diego just put things into a solid perspective, well said. 👍

Not only Chavez was inneficient, incompetent, hypocryte and manipulative, he influenced a new wave of South American dictatorship disguised as extreme-leftism.

I will never celebrate the death of some other human being, specially when it was by cancer which makes you think about the things his family has suffered, but I'd say that Venezuela now stands a chance to rebuild itself and have a leadership that works for the country and not for itself.

As it stands, South America has not yet learned how to live a full-on democratic state, but we're making slow and steady progress. I hope that Caracas regain it's democratic stance from now on.
 
chavez supported the most bloody arab dictator AL_GADAFI he killed more than 50000 and and killed my uncle (a doctor was working in the egyptian red crescent)so i am happy because i knew he is a dead man
 
Very interesting insight there Diego, very educational for me. Thank you. 👍 I still remember when they beat the crap out of you, I think you ended up fleeing to Spain.
 
ColomboVenezuelan here, and actually I'm a bit sad, if not concerned by this whole ... thing.

Internal politics of a country are subjective to bias, almost always, I know how it works in Venezuela as well, I have family at the other side of the border and it's not as tragic as Diogo states, it's a socialist rule with open media still to operate (like Globovision), which give grounds to show opposition, mostly lies, sometimes is resentment because some higher end got his pocket hurt, other times is because some business get out of control of a single entity. Not to say that is all lies though, I know the whole Bolivar Fuerte was a flop and it pretty much affected the Venezuelan economy, but the minimal wages and inflation are not as bad taking into account the economic depression and many other factors affected by the global economy.

For me Chavez was just .. a face, words with no real meaning or significance, I did had some appreciation to the guy, it was a bit wacky but fun to watch in the whole Latin American political scheme (specially when political tension build up a couple of years between Colombia and Venezuela). At the end of the day we wasn't Kim jong Ill, or Mao, just a politician, lots of words with little action.

What worries me though is how the peace talks are going to be affected within this country. Unlike what is commonly assumed Venezuela doesn't supply the FARC, FARC gear is comprised by both American and Russian weapons(M16s and M60s are found on their arsenal, which are not exactly Russian), what I can relate is that with the Venezuelan government intervention there has been a buildup of peace talks, mechanisms to free hostages from the FARC and generally a positive inter mediation to reduce the internal civil war(which has been going on for like 60 years), that will be affected by him gone now.

Also ...
Call it the Mega-Stockholm Syndrome. Dictators often have rabidly loyal followers and supporters.

Promise people the world, and they will do anything for you.

It's been nearly thirty years since we got rid of Ferdinand Marcos, and there are still people who believe he was the best President we ever had. Ignoring the lies, the cover-ups, the massacres, the corruption and the enormous amounts of money the First Couple spent covering up the problems of the country. Some of Imelda's projects were worthy of Alice in Wonderland. If she could have painted every leaf in Manila green for the visits of foreign dignitaries, she probably would have done so.

It took us this long to finally erase the huge debt started by the Marcoses to fund their vain vanity projects. And yet people still believe all that debt was the fault of the (admittedly inept) Presidents who came after him.

Well, duh. If the last guy on the toilet left a mountain of crap there, it's going to take a while to flush it out.

We had some some drug dealer president called Alvaro Uribe, he prosecuted, executed and terrorized a bunch of political parties and people, legalized illegal drug dealing groups and even made part of the army a drug dealing company, not to mention that he prosecuted anybody who would criticize his methods and literally kill them.

Far worse than Chavez, but he doesn't get a single bit of hate, Uribe lives in 5th avenue in NYC(never to be judge by the Hague, by which he is being investigated), yet Chavez gets the crap for adopting a socialist structure.

It's funny media works outside the country you live on, is all subjective to bias at the end.
 
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