Very serious problems with the LAN mode ... :(

[Bonsai]

@Minnesota01R6 Oh i did not know that. Could you post a source for that ?

 

[ixnay]

oh dear... no LAN parties for GT4...

EDIT: That's not sarcasm.

 

[ChristmasGTO]

Interesting thought:

If you ran in 1080i how bad would the performance be? I mean it'd be running in 1980x1080 so my perdictions are that you shouldnt do any type of HDTV in a LAN mode.

I dont know, I play alot of multiplayer, and am really looking forward to GT4 LAN, This isnt looking so good Multiplayer wise, They took out Garage battle which has been in (i think) since the first GT, they state that LAN can take up to 6 players, but can only have 2 due to "Lag" or adverse affects on the game.

This is just starting to sound really weird. Why take out Features that have been in all the previous GT's? if they wanted too they could do it, Its not like anyone would be shocked at another Delay. And personally I'd be more happy to have a better Longer lasting game out of it.

Looks like i'll have to buy GT: Online when it comes out to get good multiplayer out of it. thats weak. If A feature is in a game, it should be added correctly, Not half A**ed. I'd rather not have Multiplayer at all then.

Weak PD. Weak.

 

[T5-R]

So not only do they fail to release the online mode after having such a long time to get it right, they can't even manage LAN games!? And of course not even garage battles.

Will be interesting if this GT4 : Online does come out, or maybe GT4 : Working Multiplayer instead. Either way after such a long time its a shambles.

 

[///M-Spec]

With three players (or less) in a LAN race, it works perfectly.
But with four players, the game loses in graphic quality : permanent "vibrations" appear on the screen with frame rate problems (a kind of judder effect).
And with five or six players, the lag is permanent during all the race : it's not really playable.

The problem don't come from the network equipement. We have made two IP subnetworks (3 players for each) on the same physical LAN, and no lag appears when the two races are running in the same time.

So to have good conditions in a LAN race, the number of players should not exceed .. three.

VV, was there a reason you put 3 users in one subnet and 3 in another subnet? This set up suggests to me that your LAN setup was in fact the bottleneck and the cause of your performance issues. If you have two subnets, each network packet would have to be routed from one logical network to the other by a router --even though they were on the same physical network -- a slow or busy router can easily be overwhelemed by all the game overhead.

Your statement that with 3 players it the game ran well, but with more than 3 it did not would also suggest your logical subnetting was the problem. Have you tried all 6 users on the same IP subnet?


M

 

[cjrciadt]

one ip Subset, cature ingame and replays, 40ms pings, got it. 👍 👍

 

[ppucci]

Ok, let's talk physical. Are you guys using Ethernet HUBs or switches? If you are using HUBs, there can be some collision going on, Ethernet pushbacks, all sort of things typical to networks that use HUBs. This might go unnoticed on PC LANs, but when you use some real-time software over it (like GT LAN), HUBs just screw up things. If you use a switch with microsegmentation, things might work a little better. Well, I don't have GT4 yet, but I work with networking projects and I can tell you about this, it really makes a difference...

cya

 

[VV]

VV, was there a reason you put 3 users in one subnet and 3 in another subnet? This set up suggests to me that your LAN setup was in fact the bottleneck and the cause of your performance issues. If you have two subnets, each network packet would have to be routed from one logical network to the other by a router --even though they were on the same physical network -- a slow or busy router can easily be overwhelemed by all the game overhead.

Your statement that with 3 players it the game ran well, but with more than 3 it did not would also suggest your logical subnetting was the problem. Have you tried all 6 users on the same IP subnet?


M

- The first time, we have put the 6 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The second time, we have put 5 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The third time, we have put 4 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, but with "vibrating" screens.
- The fourth time, we have put 3 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, with normal screens.
- The fifth time, we have put 3 players on a subnet, and the 3 others players on another subnet. The result is two lagfree games, with normal screens (two simultaneous races).

Is that clear ?

 

[SaintKamus]

- The first time, we have put the 6 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The second time, we have put 5 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The third time, we have put 4 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, but with "vibrating" screens.
- The fourth time, we have put 3 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, with normal screens.
- The fifth time, we have put 3 players on a subnet, and the 3 others players on another subnet. The result is two lagfree games, with normal screens (two simultaneous races).

Is that clear ?

these "vibrating screens", are they the same kind of slowdown you get sometimes in single player (this happens since prologue, and on the TGS demo it happens sometimes too.)

if it's framerate related slow down this could be a very serious issue.

 

[LoudMusic]

- The first time, we have put the 6 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The second time, we have put 5 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The third time, we have put 4 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, but with "vibrating" screens.
- The fourth time, we have put 3 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, with normal screens.
- The fifth time, we have put 3 players on a subnet, and the 3 others players on another subnet. The result is two lagfree games, with normal screens (two simultaneous races).

Is that clear ?

Looks like you guys have some good troubleshooting skills! I'm very impressed (: Most gamers aren't good technicions.

My next question, though, would have to be "What kind of networking equipment are you using?"

Because you've split the six connections into two games, you're still not sending as much data between all the connections as you are with six people in one game. With everyone in one game you're sending the data stream of six computer TO six computers. Let's call that 36x connections. When you have two games of three, you have three connections going to three computers times two networks. That's 9x times 2, or 18x connections.

Does that make sense? I can draw pictures if needs be.

 

[LoudMusic]

Ok, here are two maps. My previous post was ... incorrect (: The numbers are quite different, but actually come out much more accentuated.

The point is, that the number of connections is greatly increased when they're all sending all their data to everyone, rather than just a small group.

 

[yesterdaylight]

good job loudmusic, coulda just used the combination key on your calculator ;-). But this is a very interesting problem but i'm not surprised people are having it as GT4 gives me lag and frame-rate problems in one player mode, better yet with 6 people. Just to add a useful tidbit, I heard that people in Japan had been running 6 player games with NO LAG on XLINK, which leads me to believe the lag may actually be attributed to the fact that you guys are using different versions of GT4... considering 6 players over an even laggier network (xlink) were able to play a no lag game, and it's likely that they all had the same version. just my thoughts. later.

 

[LoudMusic]

I'd agree. It's either a "version missmatch" or a really lousy network switch (:

 

[VV]

these "vibrating screens", are they the same kind of slowdown you get sometimes in single player (this happens since prologue, and on the TGS demo it happens sometimes too.)

Yeap, that's the same trouble.

My next question, though, would have to be "What kind of networking equipment are you using?"

A Netgear switch 10/100 mb/s. That means 100 mb/s for each port, so for each PS2 (of course we have checked the led on each port of the switch).

I heard that people in Japan had been running 6 player games with NO LAG on XLINK, which leads me to believe the lag may actually be attributed to the fact that you guys are using different versions of GT4...

The lagfree races with 3 players have been made with the same version version of GT4 (one race with the 3 chinese versions, and the other one with the 3 japanese versions).
And we did not tested a 3 players race with different versions ... so I hope you're right ...

 

[ChristmasGTO]

Yesterday night, like each month, with Pricer and some other friends, we held a GT party near Paris to play some races on a local network.
It was the first time with GT4 : six PS2 with six games (3 japanese and 3 chinese).
The different versions of the game are compatible in the LAN mode, it's a good point.

With three players (or less) in a LAN race, it works perfectly.
But with four players, the game loses in graphic quality : permanent "vibrations" appear on the screen with frame rate problems (a kind of judder effect).
And with five or six players, the lag is permanent during all the race : it's not really playable.

The problem don't come from the network equipement. We have made two IP subnetworks (3 players for each) on the same physical LAN, and no lag appears when the two races are running in the same time.

So to have good conditions in a LAN race, the number of players should not exceed .. three.
I don't understand how PD and Sony can distribute an unfinished and untested game like GT4.
I hope that it could be corrected for the US ans EU releases, but I don't think so, it's probably too late.

Shame on you Yamauchi San. 👎

It would make a little sense with it lagging after 4 players, if the game loses Graphic Quality that could mean that its struggling to keep up framerates as is?

 

[///M-Spec]

- The first time, we have put the 6 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The second time, we have put 5 players on the same subnet. The result is a laggy game.
- The third time, we have put 4 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, but with "vibrating" screens.
- The fourth time, we have put 3 players on the same subnet. The result is a lagfree game, with normal screens.
- The fifth time, we have put 3 players on a subnet, and the 3 others players on another subnet. The result is two lagfree games, with normal screens (two simultaneous races).

Is that clear ?

Yes, it's quite clear now; your original post implied you were subnetting to begin with.

I would lean towards LoudMusic's suggestion that it is a version conflict except I can't think of any reason why the net-code would be any different between local versions. Worth checking out, however.


M

 

[Minnesota01R6]

@Minnesota01R6 Oh i did not know that. Could you post a source for that ?

it all depends on how it is programmed. my source for why it can be achieved would be SOCOMII online, among others. The fact that KY stated he wanted gamers all over the world to be able to race against eachother online would tend to show that the game was designed with this in mind.

 

[JohnBM01]

To be honest, I haven't seen much in the way of LAN threads since the whole world felt shafted as not having online play. My guess is probably about the game should be all the same version. Either that, or I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm not the multiplayer pro.

The sort of multiplayer problems PD were trying to correct seemed to have hurt than helped in the multiplayer department. As I've stated in the past, I don't think the GT series was meant to be a multiplayer-ready game like the Unreal Tournament/Championship series. They tested the waters and by ditching the project for the upcoming build, I guess it's kind of left some multiplayer fans left out. I'm going to go with LoudMusic on this one, saying that I don't know a lot about this issue. If you want to enjoy LAN play with GT4, kind of go with LoudMusic on this one.

Oh, and one more thing. At least PD tried, so the "shame on you Yamauchi-san" was nothing more but a unnecessary low blow, or in other terms, a cheap shot.

 

[SaintKamus]

To be honest, I haven't seen much in the way of LAN threads since the whole world felt shafted as not having online play. My guess is probably about the game should be all the same version. Either that, or I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm not the multiplayer pro.

The sort of multiplayer problems PD were trying to correct seemed to have hurt than helped in the multiplayer department. As I've stated in the past, I don't think the GT series was meant to be a multiplayer-ready game like the Unreal Tournament/Championship series. They tested the waters and by ditching the project for the upcoming build, I guess it's kind of left some multiplayer fans left out. I'm going to go with LoudMusic on this one, saying that I don't know a lot about this issue. If you want to enjoy LAN play with GT4, kind of go with LoudMusic on this one.

Oh, and one more thing. At least PD tried, so the "shame on you Yamauchi-san" was nothing more but a unnecessary low blow, or in other terms, a cheap shot.

oh come on, what do you care about a "cheap shot" about some one you don't even know... oh please.

 

[Minnesota01R6]

To be honest, I haven't seen much in the way of LAN threads since the whole world felt shafted as not having online play. My guess is probably about the game should be all the same version. Either that, or I don't know. I'm sorry. I'm not the multiplayer pro.

The sort of multiplayer problems PD were trying to correct seemed to have hurt than helped in the multiplayer department. As I've stated in the past, I don't think the GT series was meant to be a multiplayer-ready game like the Unreal Tournament/Championship series. They tested the waters and by ditching the project for the upcoming build, I guess it's kind of left some multiplayer fans left out. I'm going to go with LoudMusic on this one, saying that I don't know a lot about this issue. If you want to enjoy LAN play with GT4, kind of go with LoudMusic on this one.

Oh, and one more thing. At least PD tried, so the "shame on you Yamauchi-san" was nothing more but a unnecessary low blow, or in other terms, a cheap shot.

John, are you on drugs? I read your post for 20 minutes and I still can't make sense of it. What was the point of all that?

 

[Race Idiot]

Just to add a useful tidbit, I heard that people in Japan had been running 6 player games with NO LAG on XLINK, which leads me to believe the lag may actually be attributed to the fact that you guys are using different versions of GT4... considering 6 players over an even laggier network (xlink) were able to play a no lag game, and it's likely that they all had the same version. just my thoughts. later.

I hope so, although I will only be able to test out the lan game properly when the pal version is released. As I only know one other person with GT4 and a network adapter. Although I do have a second copy of GT4 but it's the Japanese version. Hmm so maybe I could test it to see if the lag occurs with three players with one version with a region difference. Although i'll just have to use my wireless router/hub because I don't have a switch I can use. Unless I find a small one at work that I can borrow.

John, are you on drugs? I read your post for 20 minutes and I still can't make sense of it. What was the point of all that?

Unfortunately during his year long stay at GTP he has posted long winded posts with little point or purpose. So nobody knows.

 

[vipersan]

So it was the trouble with different versions of the game? Can anyone confirm that for sure?

 

[cmetom]

A Netgear switch 10/100 mb/s. That means 100 mb/s for each port, so for each PS2 (of course we have checked the led on each port of the switch).

tho it seems you all now suspect it was the Chi/Japanese versions having trouble with each other, i'll just point out that it's no good the switch's ports supporting 100mbit/s connections if the circuitry won't support every port having a constant datastream and soforth at its maximum capability... I.E. the backbone speed of the switch itself.

however, having said that... I'd hope that GT4 doesn't actually flood the 100mbit connection with 12 meg/second of data!

anyway, will be interesting to try it out once its released here in PAL and everyone i know starts getting their copies... *hugs 3RU IBM switch with 5Gb/s backbone*

 

[VV]

Yesterday night, we met us for a new GT4 lan party, with 5 PS2 and 5 games : 3 Chinese and 2 Japanese.
We have used two switchs (10/100 mb) : a professional switch 3Com 24 ports and a cheaper switch Qband 5 ports (value 20 €).

The last parameter of the Lan settings, "Network Load" must be set to "Small" to obtain the best results (the default value of the parameter is "Large") : http://z-o-g.org/imgs/gt4/tr/lan-settings.jpg

With a 4 players Lan race, the game is lag free and has a very good graphic quality. No problem for use different versions of the game in the same race.

With a 5 players race, the game loses in graphic quality : frame rate problems appear (judder effect) during half of the time, but no lag.

The results are the same with the two switchs (the professional one and the cheaper one), so the problem doesn’t come from the equipment.

... I always hope that PD will be able to fix these problems for the US and EU versions …

 

[MasterGT]

Has anyone tested wireless B & G qualities yet? I have a lot of stuff I'd like to pump through a broadband connetion but don't want the wires and, before I buy hardware (such as the LinkSys Gaming adapter), I was wondering if this would affect GT4 networking things.

Is wireless-B enough or is the G security important with PS2s?

Cheers,

MasterGT

 

[Tenacious-K]

I used to get together with my friends every week for GT3 i-link races with 4 to 5 people, and now we have started playing GT4 through LAN.

So far here are the facts of our last setup for GT4: (I only managed to gather 2 other people this time)
- All using GT4 Asian version (Chinese, with English car names)
- 2 PS2s with network adapters, and 1 PSTwo (built-in network adapter)
- Linksys WRT54G broadband router as the hub

VV : We also experienced the 'juddering' you described, and after a lof of trial & error, we found that the best settings kinda matches yours. Please let me kow if anything...
These are the best settings where the juddering is almost unnoticable :
Host network load : normal (the low one)
PS2 network adapter setting : 10baseT Full Duplex (manual), Auto also works ok (but my friends disagree). We didn't try Half duplex at all coz it does not make sense...?

If we use the 100baseT full duplex (manual), we don't connect at all (which is weird because this should actually work better).
If the host uses the LARGE network load setting, the game stutters so bad that it becomes unplayable.

Sigh... I miss the lag free, trouble free, high bandwith i-link connection! And we wished that GT4 would have series racing for LAN and grid management!

VV & others who tried LAN :

There are some things that I find annoying with the LAN mode :
They limit the car selection to about 30 cars (prioritizing the ones we selected as our favorites). And once we are in LAN mode (connected), there is no way back into the main menu without rebooting your PS2s! So, if we want to change those 30 cars from our LAN favorites, we all have to reboot, change the favorite selection, save, and then connect again, which takes so much time.

Is the course registry (in options) where we select the tracks for LAN? Because at default only 6 tracks are selected, and during LAN we can only use 6 tracks. But I only found this info recently but haven't got the chance to test coz I gotta wait till next gathering. BTW, they only limit to a maximum of 30 tracks to be selected in the registry. Anybody know where I can get a translation of the course registry track list (line by line, not alphabetically), the Maskrider screen translation only translated the headings )

Lastly, can anyone tell me what these settings are for in the LAN Connect settings? The settings where the choice to host LAN & network load are located :
- Live target
- No. of sub-monitors
- Position of monitor
- Monitor type

Thank you guys!

 

[valli]

BTW, lik-sang has a translation of the LAN menus, maybe it will help you guys with the settings?

http://image.lik-sang.com/content/gt4/translation.htm

 

[stefmeister]

The American & European version of GT4 Will NOT be compatible with the Japanese & Chinese versions of the game as the new release of the game will not only have extra cars but also a few new options.

 

[the Interceptor]

The American & European version of GT4 Will NOT be compatible with the Japanese & Chinese versions of the game as the new release of the game will not only have extra cars but also a few new options.

How do you know?

 

[neurokinetik]

The American & European version of GT4 Will NOT be compatible with the Japanese & Chinese versions of the game as the new release of the game will not only have extra cars but also a few new options.

Oh well, cheat codes it is then, for the US release. I should be done with the Japanese version by the time the US release comes out, and I'm not about to waste a bunch of time to complete the game twice...