Video example of how bad is rear tyre overspin/steering angle issue..

[chengman]

I don't know what else to say other than that there's already a thread dedicated to the physics issues in the game and according to Tidgney, PD is looking at the issue. Particularly, the snap oversteer issue.

Gran Turismo 7 Physics

In my opinion PD should step up the physics in the next GT. With titles like ACC and GTR 3 coming to console, the competition is going to be hard

www.gtplanet.net

Weird how PD finally looks at an issue when they've had over 7 years to develop this game. Did it not get noted down in Jira or something during testing or something?

 

[Adrenaline]

Gaslight people all you want, your arguing for a flawed system that requires you to learn a handling system that does not reflect reality, nor lives up to the "Real Driving Simulator" advertising. The fact that you can learn to adapt and drive through the issue is not the argument, the cars in the game have snap oversteer that is flat out unrealistic, that's the issue.

I also never mentioned LSD settings, so your just flat out projecting.

Video was too long and I don't put much value in the YouTubers.

Here's what people seem to be forgetting.

In GTSport we used Racing SUPER soft tires and no turbos on GR3s.
In GT7 we only have Racing Softs and now we have turbo'd cars.

So we're automatically starting with less grip and we are pumping out more torque. There's a reason we're all 2-3 seconds a lap off of our pace in Sport and no one seems to care. You can NOT race the same way you did in Sport, it's not a physics issue, it's a math issue. We're racing on an entire different tire standard, and with added torque. That is why so many people are having issues with "grip". This isn't a physics issue, it's an issue with people wanting to drive the same way in the new game, despite this major difference.

The bigger issue is you calling this 'snap oversteer when there is nothing snap here. The OP video is someone tossing a car into the turn, and letting go and watching it slowly come to a stop. They did nothing to attempt to keep the car pointed in a straight line.

I'm projecting nothing, this is our disconnect, watching the video you can instantly tell this is an LSD problem. Just because YOU don't know that doesn't mean anything to me. The problem is in his LSD, that's why the car is having the problem he's showing here, even if we set aside the less than optimal driving.

As I said in my first post, 90% of that problem can be fixed with his LSD settings, and I don't even know what setup he's using. I can just see it. I don't see a physics issue, I see a driving issue and a tune issue. You can get away with one OR the other, but not usually both.

He doesn't have to learn or adapt, he just has to make a quick adjustment to his tune, and he'll be fine. I have him the answer, I tried to be helpful, and you're all still acting like I'm the problem, or the game has wronged you. I added a video, I offered my entire tune, and you're still pointing fingers at the game and accusing me.

Like I said, people aren't here to actually learn, they just want to complain. I've done everything possible to help fix the concern, but you'll just keep quoting me, with any excuse you can to put the blame on anyone but yourself.

The game isn't perfect, it has issues. The one currently being pointed out, can easily be solved with a quick adjustment to the LSD. That's how simple this was. Not a game breaking physics issue, just a bad LSD setting for the track style.

 

[B80]

Video was too long and I don't put much value in the YouTubers.

Here's what people seem to be forgetting.

In GTSport we used Racing SUPER soft tires and no turbos on GR3s.
In GT7 we only have Racing Softs and now we have turbo'd cars.

So we're automatically starting with less grip and we are pumping out more torque. There's a reason we're all 2-3 seconds a lap off of our pace in Sport and no one seems to care. You can NOT race the same way you did in Sport, it's not a physics issue, it's a math issue. We're racing on an entire different tire standard, and with added torque. That is why so many people are having issues with "grip". This isn't a physics issue, it's an issue with people wanting to drive the same way in the new game, despite this major difference.

The bigger issue is you calling this 'snap oversteer when there is nothing snap here. The OP video is someone tossing a car into the turn, and letting go and watching it slowly come to a stop. They did nothing to attempt to keep the car pointed in a straight line.

I'm projecting nothing, this is our disconnect, watching the video you can instantly tell this is an LSD problem. Just because YOU don't know that doesn't mean anything to me. The problem is in his LSD, that's why the car is having the problem he's showing here, even if we set aside the less than optimal driving.

As I said in my first post, 90% of that problem can be fixed with his LSD settings, and I don't even know what setup he's using. I can just see it. I don't see a physics issue, I see a driving issue and a tune issue. You can get away with one OR the other, but not usually both.

He doesn't have to learn or adapt, he just has to make a quick adjustment to his tune, and he'll be fine. I have him the answer, I tried to be helpful, and you're all still acting like I'm the problem, or the game has wronged you. I added a video, I offered my entire tune, and you're still pointing fingers at the game and accusing me.

Like I said, people aren't here to actually learn, they just want to complain. I've done everything possible to help fix the concern, but you'll just keep quoting me, with any excuse you can to put the blame on anyone but yourself.

The game isn't perfect, it has issues. The one currently being pointed out, can easily be solved with a quick adjustment to the LSD. That's how simple this was. Not a game breaking physics issue, just a bad LSD setting for the track style.

Interesting. Do you recommend any good videos, sites, resources etc to learn more about tuning, lsd in particular. I'm a total layman, so good introduction level resources would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Adrenaline]

Interesting. Do you recommend any good videos, sites, resources etc to learn more about tuning, lsd in particular. I'm a total layman, so good introduction level resources would be appreciated. Thanks!

I have this posted in my tune thread, it is my personal opinion and how I've tuned LSD's in Gran Turismo since GT5 with great success, and feedback from others who have found it to work for them. Hope it helps.

4: LSD
Below is my explanation of how the LSD system works in GT7.
Initial:
Effects the cars stability throughout the entire turning process. Think of 5 as an open diff and 60 as a locker.
High Initial, usually means more understeer, better forward bite.
Lower Initial, usually means more agility, less acceleration.
*Use the highest Initial Setting possible, without experiencing understeer.

Acceleration:
Effects the car under acceleration while exiting a corner and distributes the power between the inside and outside tires.
High Accel, usually means more outside tire spin.
Lower Accel, usually means more inside tire spin.
*Use the highest Accel Setting possible, without experiencing excessive outside wheel spin.

For longer races with tire wear, I recommend using lower numbers to prevent exaggerated wheel spin under low grip conditions experienced when tire life is lower.

DeAcceleration
Effects the car while braking, coasting, and entering turns.
Higher DeAccel, usually means more understeer on corner entry & coasting through the center.
Lower DeAccel, usually means better agility, but less stability, potential oversteer on entry.
*Use the lowest number possible, where you can safely drive-in as hard as you like, without losing control, or experiencing oversteer.

Final thoughts:
Increasing or Lowering the Initial has a partial connection with Accel & DeAccel settings.
Since raising the Initial creates more 'lock' it will effect the balance of the Accel & DeAccel that you may have already tuned.
Another noteworthy aspect, is that many, MANY, different variables will effect your LSD balance. Including but not limited to:
Transmission Gearing, Downforce, Ride Height, Spring Rates, Brake Balance and so on.
So keep that in mind, when making other adjustments, that LSD balance may have been compromised.

So if you read through the above, and then re-watch the video from the original post, you can see, when they are going into the turn, (ignoring the other massive issues, like driving line, elevation change, and weight transfer to the front, leaving very little weight on the rear tires...) the real issue is that under deacceleration and while coasting into the apex, the rear end was way too open, allowing the 2 rear tires to rotate at significantly different rates, which allowed the entire car to just keep rotating, and essentially the outside tire, to drive the car into a complete spin.

So, 2 ways to fix this. 1: Higher Initial setting. This will 'lock' the 2 rear tires closer together, limiting the allowed different between the 2 tires rotational speeds. (Initial effects the entire turn start to finish).
2: Higher Braking sensitivity. Since this is predominantly happening on entry (we can only see 1 turn so I have to assume) you can instantly jump this number WAY up, to stabilize the car on corner entry/braking/coasting.

Alternate issues that can cause what's happening in the video. First, you have to diagnose that the issue is lack of rear grip, and the reason for that, is the car is going up and over a peak, under braking, so not only is all of the weight being thrown to the front tires, but the car is going from an uphill, to a down hill, which means the frong end is lower than the rear, which exaggerates this issue.

So, real world, how do you slow down weight transfer front to back? Stiffer front suspension settings. Stiffer front springs slow down how quickly the front absorbs the weight transfer. Softer rear springs, will 'push
' the weight from the rear at a slower pace. You can stiffen the front 'compression' shocks. Or you can stiffen the rear 'expansion'. You can lower the rear ride height, so that as weight is transferred, the car has less rake under stress. Or, you can identify whether you have the right amount of camber, to ensure you have the largest tire patch possible during the hardest turn on the track.

These are all realistic options that work the same way in real life, and I've found them to be consistent in game as well.

There are obviously some anomalies and unrealistic results when you go to extreme ends of either spectrum, but for the most part, this has all worked for me.

 

[B80]

I have this posted in my tune thread, it is my personal opinion and how I've tuned LSD's in Gran Turismo since GT5 with great success, and feedback from others who have found it to work for them. Hope it helps.

4: LSD
Below is my explanation of how the LSD system works in GT7.
Initial:
Effects the cars stability throughout the entire turning process. Think of 5 as an open diff and 60 as a locker.
High Initial, usually means more understeer, better forward bite.
Lower Initial, usually means more agility, less acceleration.
*Use the highest Initial Setting possible, without experiencing understeer.

Acceleration:
Effects the car under acceleration while exiting a corner and distributes the power between the inside and outside tires.
High Accel, usually means more outside tire spin.
Lower Accel, usually means more inside tire spin.
*Use the highest Accel Setting possible, without experiencing excessive outside wheel spin.

For longer races with tire wear, I recommend using lower numbers to prevent exaggerated wheel spin under low grip conditions experienced when tire life is lower.

DeAcceleration
Effects the car while braking, coasting, and entering turns.
Higher DeAccel, usually means more understeer on corner entry & coasting through the center.
Lower DeAccel, usually means better agility, but less stability, potential oversteer on entry.
*Use the lowest number possible, where you can safely drive-in as hard as you like, without losing control, or experiencing oversteer.

Final thoughts:
Increasing or Lowering the Initial has a partial connection with Accel & DeAccel settings.
Since raising the Initial creates more 'lock' it will effect the balance of the Accel & DeAccel that you may have already tuned.
Another noteworthy aspect, is that many, MANY, different variables will effect your LSD balance. Including but not limited to:
Transmission Gearing, Downforce, Ride Height, Spring Rates, Brake Balance and so on.
So keep that in mind, when making other adjustments, that LSD balance may have been compromised.

So if you read through the above, and then re-watch the video from the original post, you can see, when they are going into the turn, (ignoring the other massive issues, like driving line, elevation change, and weight transfer to the front, leaving very little weight on the rear tires...) the real issue is that under deacceleration and while coasting into the apex, the rear end was way too open, allowing the 2 rear tires to rotate at significantly different rates, which allowed the entire car to just keep rotating, and essentially the outside tire, to drive the car into a complete spin.

So, 2 ways to fix this. 1: Higher Initial setting. This will 'lock' the 2 rear tires closer together, limiting the allowed different between the 2 tires rotational speeds. (Initial effects the entire turn start to finish).
2: Higher Braking sensitivity. Since this is predominantly happening on entry (we can only see 1 turn so I have to assume) you can instantly jump this number WAY up, to stabilize the car on corner entry/braking/coasting.

Alternate issues that can cause what's happening in the video. First, you have to diagnose that the issue is lack of rear grip, and the reason for that, is the car is going up and over a peak, under braking, so not only is all of the weight being thrown to the front tires, but the car is going from an uphill, to a down hill, which means the frong end is lower than the rear, which exaggerates this issue.

So, real world, how do you slow down weight transfer front to back? Stiffer front suspension settings. Stiffer front springs slow down how quickly the front absorbs the weight transfer. Softer rear springs, will 'push
' the weight from the rear at a slower pace. You can stiffen the front 'compression' shocks. Or you can stiffen the rear 'expansion'. You can lower the rear ride height, so that as weight is transferred, the car has less rake under stress. Or, you can identify whether you have the right amount of camber, to ensure you have the largest tire patch possible during the hardest turn on the track.

These are all realistic options that work the same way in real life, and I've found them to be consistent in game as well.

There are obviously some anomalies and unrealistic results when you go to extreme ends of either spectrum, but for the most part, this has all worked for me.

Good man, thanks a lot. Guess after half getting head around it as much as possible from reading, next thing is to take cars out on trials and 'tinker' with the lsd variables to further improve understanding.

Bookmarked.

 

[P_Lav]

Video was too long and I don't put much value in the YouTubers.

Here's what people seem to be forgetting.

In GTSport we used Racing SUPER soft tires and no turbos on GR3s.
In GT7 we only have Racing Softs and now we have turbo'd cars.

So we're automatically starting with less grip and we are pumping out more torque. There's a reason we're all 2-3 seconds a lap off of our pace in Sport and no one seems to care. You can NOT race the same way you did in Sport, it's not a physics issue, it's a math issue. We're racing on an entire different tire standard, and with added torque. That is why so many people are having issues with "grip". This isn't a physics issue, it's an issue with people wanting to drive the same way in the new game, despite this major difference.

The bigger issue is you calling this 'snap oversteer when there is nothing snap here. The OP video is someone tossing a car into the turn, and letting go and watching it slowly come to a stop. They did nothing to attempt to keep the car pointed in a straight line.

I'm projecting nothing, this is our disconnect, watching the video you can instantly tell this is an LSD problem. Just because YOU don't know that doesn't mean anything to me. The problem is in his LSD, that's why the car is having the problem he's showing here, even if we set aside the less than optimal driving.

As I said in my first post, 90% of that problem can be fixed with his LSD settings, and I don't even know what setup he's using. I can just see it. I don't see a physics issue, I see a driving issue and a tune issue. You can get away with one OR the other, but not usually both.

He doesn't have to learn or adapt, he just has to make a quick adjustment to his tune, and he'll be fine. I have him the answer, I tried to be helpful, and you're all still acting like I'm the problem, or the game has wronged you. I added a video, I offered my entire tune, and you're still pointing fingers at the game and accusing me.

Like I said, people aren't here to actually learn, they just want to complain. I've done everything possible to help fix the concern, but you'll just keep quoting me, with any excuse you can to put the blame on anyone but yourself.

The game isn't perfect, it has issues. The one currently being pointed out, can easily be solved with a quick adjustment to the LSD. That's how simple this was. Not a game breaking physics issue, just a bad LSD setting for the track style.

I

I have this posted in my tune thread, it is my personal opinion and how I've tuned LSD's in Gran Turismo since GT5 with great success, and feedback from others who have found it to work for them. Hope it helps.

4: LSD
Below is my explanation of how the LSD system works in GT7.
Initial:
Effects the cars stability throughout the entire turning process. Think of 5 as an open diff and 60 as a locker.
High Initial, usually means more understeer, better forward bite.
Lower Initial, usually means more agility, less acceleration.
*Use the highest Initial Setting possible, without experiencing understeer.

Acceleration:
Effects the car under acceleration while exiting a corner and distributes the power between the inside and outside tires.
High Accel, usually means more outside tire spin.
Lower Accel, usually means more inside tire spin.
*Use the highest Accel Setting possible, without experiencing excessive outside wheel spin.

For longer races with tire wear, I recommend using lower numbers to prevent exaggerated wheel spin under low grip conditions experienced when tire life is lower.

DeAcceleration
Effects the car while braking, coasting, and entering turns.
Higher DeAccel, usually means more understeer on corner entry & coasting through the center.
Lower DeAccel, usually means better agility, but less stability, potential oversteer on entry.
*Use the lowest number possible, where you can safely drive-in as hard as you like, without losing control, or experiencing oversteer.

Final thoughts:
Increasing or Lowering the Initial has a partial connection with Accel & DeAccel settings.
Since raising the Initial creates more 'lock' it will effect the balance of the Accel & DeAccel that you may have already tuned.
Another noteworthy aspect, is that many, MANY, different variables will effect your LSD balance. Including but not limited to:
Transmission Gearing, Downforce, Ride Height, Spring Rates, Brake Balance and so on.
So keep that in mind, when making other adjustments, that LSD balance may have been compromised.

So if you read through the above, and then re-watch the video from the original post, you can see, when they are going into the turn, (ignoring the other massive issues, like driving line, elevation change, and weight transfer to the front, leaving very little weight on the rear tires...) the real issue is that under deacceleration and while coasting into the apex, the rear end was way too open, allowing the 2 rear tires to rotate at significantly different rates, which allowed the entire car to just keep rotating, and essentially the outside tire, to drive the car into a complete spin.

So, 2 ways to fix this. 1: Higher Initial setting. This will 'lock' the 2 rear tires closer together, limiting the allowed different between the 2 tires rotational speeds. (Initial effects the entire turn start to finish).
2: Higher Braking sensitivity. Since this is predominantly happening on entry (we can only see 1 turn so I have to assume) you can instantly jump this number WAY up, to stabilize the car on corner entry/braking/coasting.

Alternate issues that can cause what's happening in the video. First, you have to diagnose that the issue is lack of rear grip, and the reason for that, is the car is going up and over a peak, under braking, so not only is all of the weight being thrown to the front tires, but the car is going from an uphill, to a down hill, which means the frong end is lower than the rear, which exaggerates this issue.

So, real world, how do you slow down weight transfer front to back? Stiffer front suspension settings. Stiffer front springs slow down how quickly the front absorbs the weight transfer. Softer rear springs, will 'push
' the weight from the rear at a slower pace. You can stiffen the front 'compression' shocks. Or you can stiffen the rear 'expansion'. You can lower the rear ride height, so that as weight is transferred, the car has less rake under stress. Or, you can identify whether you have the right amount of camber, to ensure you have the largest tire patch possible during the hardest turn on the track.

These are all realistic options that work the same way in real life, and I've found them to be consistent in game as well.

There are obviously some anomalies and unrealistic results when you go to extreme ends of either spectrum, but for the most part, this has all worked for me.

Great dismissal, you sir earn a badge in being one dense mother lover. If you watched the video instead of arguing with people, you'd know that PD is aware of this issue and has it as high priority. Never mind the fact the guy has some pretty decent credentials.

Right your supposed to have to run an open differential on a GT3 car, I forgot... A completely stock BMW M3 should have no issue with snap over steer during corner exit, but GT7 that's normal, gotcha.

Why are people on drift builds tuning towards an open differential, adding 200lbs of ballast in the front, completely stiffening the front suspension, and completely softening the rear sway bar? Even after PD adds the ability for increased steering angle? This is also not a "ideal tune" this is a tune just to make drifting "kinda" viable. The oversteer is not progressive, even with harder tires, the slip angle calculation is not correct. It doesn't matter how gently you initiate a drift, if the game just decides its time to spin there's no saving it. And ya, I can manage to struggle for 4 hours and link all of Deep Forest Raceway with an 180HP AE86, but its not useful practice because I'm learning to handle the car wrong with the most sublet inputs possible, and keep the lowest drift angle, when I've actually drifted lower power cars IRL and you drive at 110% with aggressive inputs, high in the rev range, and slamming clutch kicks to keep the wheels spinning.

Even grip driving a copy of my 280 HP turbo swapped FC RX-7 in the game is a joke, I run the diff tuned way down, soft rear sway bars, as little as rear camber as possible, on sport hards, and I have to barely touch the gas in a 4rd gear corner exit in game. I wish my car had that kind of torque IRL.

People are 5th gear drifting stock RX-8's... You realize how ridiculous that is?

Why are you hell bent on keeping a flawed system? Do use a wheel? Do you drive real track events? Do you play other sims?

I don't get how anyone can say this is how it should be.

 

[unfairlane]

I don't know what a "realistic" setting is for the LSD, as I've never seen the ability to change the torque of a limited slip differential 3 ways in a race car, so you're really reaching here.

You should have stopped here and not let the adrenaline take control. As you say, you do not know how to set up a diff.
But who is trying to educate others a bit later? A blind leading a blind..

Edit; some real education: https://www.cusco.co.jp/en/pdf/p27_p29.pdf

 

[m76]

according to Tidgney, PD is looking at the issue. Particularly, the snap oversteer issue.

Who is Tidgney, is this a rumor, or have they confirmed it?

Yeah, so many self-proclaimed "veteran sim racers" on this sub forum throwing a fit because GT7 knocked their ego down a few notches.
I worded that harshly, but it's true.

So the only reason someone can dislike GT7 is because they are not skilled enough, LOL.

Are the physics a bit flawed in places/with certain cars? Yes!
Could the FFB be improved? Yes!

It is flawed with all cars, there are no exceptions, only the effects are more exaggerated with some than others. And yes LSD tuning can mitigate things, but that is not how it is supposed to be. An LSD is a performance part, if cars behaved like they do in GT7 without an LSD, well we'd have a lot of issues with street cars as 99% of them doesn't have an LSD, especially not a two way one.

But if you're struggling with the game's physics constantly, across every car in the game, consider firing up Richard Burns Rally and teaching yourself some proper car control before coming to this forum and blaming the game entirely.

RBR is one of my all time favorite driving games, and probably the most realistic depiction of Rallying to date. To suggest that it has even remotely the same physics as GT7 is either blasphemy, or a terrible attempt at gaslighting those who haven't had the pleasure of experiencing it.

Driving on asphalt in RBR has all the grip, the polar opposite of GT7. They couldn't feel more different if they tried. And mind you rally stages are dusty public roads with various quality surfaces, and they still have magnitudes more grip in RBR, than the purpose built race tracks in GT7.

It's okay to admit your driving weaknesses people! It helps you in the long run

Yeah, let your ego do the thinking for you.

 

[Samus]

Who is Tidgney, is this a rumor, or have they confirmed it?

A World Tour player who has contact with PD, real name Martin Grady. He confirms it in this video:



EDIT: Adjusted link to correct timestamp.

 

[Adrenaline]

Great dismissal
Why are you hell bent on keeping a flawed system? Do use a wheel? Do you drive real track events? Do you play other sims?

I don't get how anyone can say this is how it should be.

You aren't listening, you're unable to compartmentalize the separate issues.

I didn't dismiss the video, I said it's too long I'm not going to watch it. YTers all have their opinions, many contradict eachother, so how do you pick and choose which is 'right' when they're all faster than us and many have plenty of credentials? Lewis Hamilton himself can share his opinion on GT7 tuning and it wouldn't mean much. His driving credentials don't make him a good tuner in a video game. All too often, real life credentials make you less reliable than a dedicated gamer. Who would you rather take tuning advise from for a video game, Lewis Hamilton or Praiano who basically does it as a full time job?

I'm not hell bent on keeping anything and not once have I defended the game physics.

What I said, was that this SPECIFIC example the OP is crying about, can be solved in 30 seconds with an LSD tune.

That is not a game flaw. Just because THIS video isn't a physics issue, doesn't mean physics issues don't exist. 2 things can be true at the same time. The game can have a rear grip issue AND this video can have nothing to do with that issue and is caused by LSD and bad driving. Both of those statements can be true at the same time. They are not contradictory.

All I did in GTSport was race and tune Gr3 cars. All I do in GT7 is race and tune Gr3 cars. The video the OP posted is not a game or physics issue, it's a Gr3 driving and tuning issue.

That doesn't mean the game doesn't have issues. It doesn't mean I think things should stay the way they are. It doesn't mean I'm defending GT7... It just means the OP video is stupid and has nothing to do with game physics and everything to do with bad driving and bad tuning.

They are unrelated topics. I'm not dismissing potential flaws in rear grip physics\mechanics I'm telling you this specific example, is unrelated to that issue and is caused by something else entirely.

Basically the OP posted a video showing themselves soaking wet. And says "proof it's raining outside." and I said "actually you jumped in the pool, I can see your footsteps in the video". Then you came in and said "I can't believe you don't think rain makes you wet!"

Just because this guy jumped in the pool, doesn't mean I don't think rain makes you wet. It just means it's not the reason he's wet in this video.

Not that I think it carries much weight, but since you asked, I use a T300, started racing dirt karts at 8, asphalt cars at 13.

 

[HyperSpeeder]

GT7 biggest issue is bad default setups. I refuse to believe a Porsche ships out of the factory with equal stiffness ARBs front and rear. Same with all FWD cars.

Once you sort them out, there's lots of cars in the game that handle really well, though I think Sport tires could be a little more progressive when it comes to grip loss. Racing tires are supposed to kill you if you step over the line.

Also important, VAST majority of road cars in (relatively) recent years are designed to take advantage of electronics. Default tune is aggressive then the electronics sort the handling. Think Williams FW14. These cars will be fastest with assists.

FYI this is practically zero in real life

Not zero but definitely very low. On the wing there's a lift coefficient which should be low, density is air density (very low), area which is, well, probably no more than 2 square meters, and speed is low and given in meters per second to get force in newtons. On top of all that, everything's halved.

It grows exponentially with speed like drag does (it's the same formula after all), so it will start very low and reach high values at high speeds.

tl;dr Wings do nothing at low speeds. That's rather diffs/springs/ARBs territory. Wings exist so your "simplify and add lightness" electric chair doesn't take off at 200 kph.

 

[chengman]

You aren't listening, you're unable to compartmentalize the separate issues.

I didn't dismiss the video, I said it's too long I'm not going to watch it. YTers all have their opinions, many contradict eachother, so how do you pick and choose which is 'right' when they're all faster than us and many have plenty of credentials? Lewis Hamilton himself can share his opinion on GT7 tuning and it wouldn't mean much. His driving credentials don't make him a good tuner in a video game. All too often, real life credentials make you less reliable than a dedicated gamer. Who would you rather take tuning advise from for a video game, Lewis Hamilton or Praiano who basically does it as a full time job?

I'm not hell bent on keeping anything and not once have I defended the game physics.

What I said, was that this SPECIFIC example the OP is crying about, can be solved in 30 seconds with an LSD tune.

That is not a game flaw. Just because THIS video isn't a physics issue, doesn't mean physics issues don't exist. 2 things can be true at the same time. The game can have a rear grip issue AND this video can have nothing to do with that issue and is caused by LSD and bad driving. Both of those statements can be true at the same time. They are not contradictory.

All I did in GTSport was race and tune Gr3 cars. All I do in GT7 is race and tune Gr3 cars. The video the OP posted is not a game or physics issue, it's a Gr3 driving and tuning issue.

That doesn't mean the game doesn't have issues. It doesn't mean I think things should stay the way they are. It doesn't mean I'm defending GT7... It just means the OP video is stupid and has nothing to do with game physics and everything to do with bad driving and bad tuning.

They are unrelated topics. I'm not dismissing potential flaws in rear grip physics\mechanics I'm telling you this specific example, is unrelated to that issue and is caused by something else entirely.

Basically the OP posted a video showing themselves soaking wet. And says "proof it's raining outside." and I said "actually you jumped in the pool, I can see your footsteps in the video". Then you came in and said "I can't believe you don't think rain makes you wet!"

Just because this guy jumped in the pool, doesn't mean I don't think rain makes you wet. It just means it's not the reason he's wet in this video.

Not that I think it carries much weight, but since you asked, I use a T300, started racing dirt karts at 8, asphalt cars at 13.

I've done some vehicle development driving at my company(nameless OEM) and the GT7 physics model feels less developed than GT5/6. Just to start off, GT7 uses a grip multiplier based physics model instead of a mass based model. Of course we are limited by computing power so the game can't run real time CFD. In GT7 we see a physics model that just increases tire grip on a multiplier scale. The last time we saw this was GT5/6. Meanwhile in Project Cars 2/iRacing/R3, they use a mass based model where the faster a car goes, the more "mass" the game adds to the vehicle to replicate downforce. We see this doesn't exist in GT7, because of how much cars are bouncing over the simplest of curbs/bumps on tracks, while in PC2/iRacing the cars stay perfectly flat, as it can be seen through the vehicle suspension data in real time. Oh and that's before we even mention how in GT7 you can be right behind another racecar and not lose any downforce at all. Try doing that in PC2(same genre as GT7) with a GT3 car and you'll spin out.

 

[Adrenaline]

I've done some vehicle development driving at my company(nameless OEM) and the GT7 physics model feels less developed than GT5/6. Just to start off, GT7 uses a grip multiplier based physics model instead of a mass based model. Of course we are limited by computing power so the game can't run real time CFD. In GT7 we see a physics model that just increases tire grip on a multiplier scale. The last time we saw this was GT5/6. Meanwhile in Project Cars 2/iRacing/R3, they use a mass based model where the faster a car goes, the more "mass" the game adds to the vehicle to replicate downforce. We see this doesn't exist in GT7, because of how much cars are bouncing over the simplest of curbs/bumps on tracks, while in PC2/iRacing the cars stay perfectly flat, as it can be seen through the vehicle suspension data in real time. Oh and that's before we even mention how in GT7 you can be right behind another racecar and not lose any downforce at all. Try doing that in PC2(same genre as GT7) with a GT3 car and you'll spin out.

They definitely went all in on 'elevation' effects. That is why curbs, off camber corners, and up\downhill corners have drastically different feel in 7 than Sport.
I'm not saying it's good or bad, but in sport we could abuse every curb without a second thought, fly over parts of the track and land like it was nothing. 7 has decided to try and magnify every bump and hill, even puddles are modeled to disrupt the car. Personally I think they went too far, but if I have to choose between Sport and 7, I much prefer 7.

This has been an issue since the first time any of us tried Fisherman's ranch, and we couldn't go off a jump without wrecking, including the AI. It seems odd that it made it through to the final game, especially when a big fuss was made about Deep Forest and Trial Mountain returning to the game. The first section of trial mountain, and the last turn of deep forest really make you aware of how they've decided to punish elevation changes in the cars grip, and transfer of weight. It's odd to me, they've address the dirt aspect once already, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them alter the asphalt aspect as well.

Having said that, I completely disagree about your claim of dirty air not having an effect in GT7. For me, it is instantly noticeable if you're driving near the limits of a tune, how the loss of air on the nose will cause understeer. (Spinning seems odd to me, not sure why you would expect that result in any game, the rear wing is still getting the aero effect, the nose loses it, this should naturally cause understeer not oversteer)

I notice it at many tracks, but the biggest culprit so far is Monza with no chicane, the sweeping right hander. Get a car balanced at full throttle through that section, and repeat behind a car, and the difference can not be debated. Just my opinion though.
The sweeping left at Spa, in the middle section, also comes to mind.

 

[br1x]

I've done some vehicle development driving at my company(nameless OEM) and the GT7 physics model feels less developed than GT5/6. Just to start off, GT7 uses a grip multiplier based physics model instead of a mass based model. Of course we are limited by computing power so the game can't run real time CFD. In GT7 we see a physics model that just increases tire grip on a multiplier scale. The last time we saw this was GT5/6. Meanwhile in Project Cars 2/iRacing/R3, they use a mass based model where the faster a car goes, the more "mass" the game adds to the vehicle to replicate downforce. We see this doesn't exist in GT7, because of how much cars are bouncing over the simplest of curbs/bumps on tracks, while in PC2/iRacing the cars stay perfectly flat, as it can be seen through the vehicle suspension data in real time. Oh and that's before we even mention how in GT7 you can be right behind another racecar and not lose any downforce at all. Try doing that in PC2(same genre as GT7) with a GT3 car and you'll spin out.

I really wonder about that part, there definetly was "dirty air" in GT Sport, the GT500 cars and the Red Bull X were affected a lot more by it than the Gr. 3 cars as well so it was not just hard coded I believe.

 

[JDMKING13]

They definitely went all in on 'elevation' effects. That is why curbs, off camber corners, and up\downhill corners have drastically different feel in 7 than Sport.
I'm not saying it's good or bad, but in sport we could abuse every curb without a second thought, fly over parts of the track and land like it was nothing. 7 has decided to try and magnify every bump and hill, even puddles are modeled to disrupt the car. Personally I think they went too far, but if I have to choose between Sport and 7, I much prefer 7.

This has been an issue since the first time any of us tried Fisherman's ranch, and we couldn't go off a jump without wrecking, including the AI. It seems odd that it made it through to the final game, especially when a big fuss was made about Deep Forest and Trial Mountain returning to the game. The first section of trial mountain, and the last turn of deep forest really make you aware of how they've decided to punish elevation changes in the cars grip, and transfer of weight. It's odd to me, they've address the dirt aspect once already, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them alter the asphalt aspect as well.

Having said that, I completely disagree about your claim of dirty air not having an effect in GT7. For me, it is instantly noticeable if you're driving near the limits of a tune, how the loss of air on the nose will cause understeer. (Spinning seems odd to me, not sure why you would expect that result in any game, the rear wing is still getting the aero effect, the nose loses it, this should naturally cause understeer not oversteer)

I notice it at many tracks, but the biggest culprit so far is Monza with no chicane, the sweeping right hander. Get a car balanced at full throttle through that section, and repeat behind a car, and the difference can not be debated. Just my opinion though.
The sweeping left at Spa, in the middle section, also comes to mind.

I agree with you big time about the different effects elevation, bumps, curbs, etc have now vs GTS. I mean balancing the chassis in GT7 vs GTS is just more challenging and personally I’m enjoying it a lot. The linear throttle is also welcomed, the sensation of acceleration/accelerating out of a turn when you get it right is pure pleasure. If buddy took that same line in GTS maybe he might of understeered in the worst scenario. On GT7 from just all the hours of driving your not going to get away with that type of driving. It’s going to upset the car drastically add no throttle to keep the rear planted and yanking the wheel… yea I’m not so shocked and as I said that doesn’t make him a bad driver.. it was just bad technique… I would take over GT7 driving dynamics over GTS all day it’s not even close!