Violence! How'd you feel?

[W3H5]

Being personally prone to violence at times but also wanting to have a peaceful existence, it's something I've pondered long and hard about much of my life. I'm often torn by what I feel to be a deep rooted sense for aggression and fighting and the part of me that wants to respect others and act in a passive manor. I'm sure I'm not alone.

There are numerous statistics about the number of years mankind has spent warring since the birth of civilization. I'm quite certain everyone reading this has experienced violence in one shape or another at some point in their life. So what's the deal? Are humans programmed to violence, is it a part of our genetic make-up? Or are we just manipulated into it by our environments and experiences? Some other reason perhaps?

 

[photonrider]

So what's the deal?

Mean genes.

 

[Thematic]

@photonrider Update the code in the brain. That's not genes.

 

[photonrider]

What's not genes?

 

[Thematic]

What's not genes?

Behaviour patterns etc. Nurture for the win.

 

[photonrider]

That's what the book is all about; we are programmed to Feed, Fight, Flee, and Fornicate - though maybe not in that order. It's a primal urge. When we realise that almost everything we do is driven by those instincts is when we take the first conscious step towards controlling what our genes tell us to do.

You're right. We must update the code in our brains. 👍

 

[TenEightyOne]

Behaviour patterns etc. Nurture for the win.

Actually a proven combination, memory can be inherited as can behaviour traits/abilities.

If only nurture is formative then could you have a stab at explaining the following;

As a very young child (days old) I was taken into care for reasons that go in some other story. I was never in the presence of my bio father as a born human.

I was subsequently adopted by a lovely pair of nutters who had amongst their possessions a piano. Neither of my adoptive parents can play the piano, it was just one of those things that people had in their houses in those days - in our case it had been bought with the house as they were so common that people sometimes didn't bother moving house with them.

At 5 years old I sat down at the piano (which I'd only ever plinked) and played "The Tide is High", haltingly but improving to a two-handed repetition over the half-an-hour or so that I was sitting there. That was with no prompting, no lessons, and no apparent former interest in the instrument.

Over the years I became a "proper" self-taught pianist and even took my Grade 8 and passed a music degree without any formal tuition and, I'm pleased to say, that piano stayed in the family's possession and moved with us

Here's the thing; as adopted children do I looked for my bio families some time ago. I found that my bio father died many years ago but I found his sister to whom he'd been very close. Without knowing me she described his personality and traits and, even with my skeptical mind, there were many similarities even down to insisting on going left-foot first on the stairs all the time (there, I've said it). The strangest was that as a child he suddenly started playing the piano one day as the family were sitting in a pub - they were very different days. The family had no piano at home and nobody else was musical. He became self-taught (although he never learnt to read music) and could play things back. I watched a video of him playing and he was really pretty good.

Having worked in education I was (like most teachers) well past the idea that it was either nature or nurture but this whole story took several weeks to sink in.

As you were

 

[W3H5]

At 5 years old I sat down at the piano (which I'd only ever plinked) and played "The Tide is High"

I'd have beaten you with a slipper until you could play Sunday Girl.

(Just kidding, I thought violent threats would be appropriate jokes in this thread.)

 

[niky]

Nurture can be used to overcome nature... or, at the very least, allow a person to cope with their nature as best as possible. There has been some discussion on how normal people can have the same biological markers as psychopaths, yet display no psychopathology (though some of the same behaviours). Contrawise, you can have not a musical bone in your body, but still be trained to be a passable musician (though likely not a great one...).

Then there are those of us who've inherited terrible tempers and other psychological issues from our elders, whether due to brain structure or body chemistry... (just ask anyone who's inherited diabetes how nice you can be when you're hungry... ) ...I've had to work on ways of coping with road rage over the decades. I can't completely prevent the red mist, but I know how to recognize the symptoms and avert any untoward incidents.

I think many of us have a tendency towards violence, but society has shamed us out of it. For those without the inhibition, I guess there are ways to suppress your violent nature, if you're open to behavioral modification.

Or (legal) drugs.

 

[Com Fox]

There are multiple reasons I see through some observations.

Violence can be a way for people who can't control their anger and frustration to release it all. I have an older brother like that and he does tend to get violent when he gets mad, I actually let him hurt me as I know fighting back will just make him even more mad.

Then you got those who don't know any better, the people who were brought up by other violent people so they use their violent behaviours or even the people who never ever had the "gene" to think things through.

You also got the arrogant type who do it, to show that they are the dominant men/women and nobody should mess with them.

Then you got the sadist, but I don't really know much on it.

----------

Speaking of violence, I never got this thing at all.

Apparently when you are caught into a fight, there some unwritten rule where you have to fight with "honour" and not go for the kiwis, otherwise you are "wimp" or a "coward". I have 2 major flaws with this rules.

1. The people who say that, usually attack a man who is lying down helplessly causing more damage that wasn't needed.
2. Why on earth, is there "honour" or even rules in something with 2 people trying to hurt each other that isn't a competition.

Honestly, if I was in the situation of a man wanting to get into a fight with me and there was no way out of it, I would go straight for the kiwis to give myself an advantage and then leave the dude alone if he couldn't fight back. I don't care about being the better fighter or being the "most brave", I just want to survive.

 

[Dennisch]

Violence! How'd you feel?

I feel like punching you in the nads.

 

[Imari]

There's a bunch of situations where violence is absolutely the correct response. Usually they're life or death, or damn close too it. Those are the "instinctive violence" situations, it actually gives you a reproductive advantage if you simply kick straight into berserker mode in those situations instead of thinking about it while the axe-wielding maniac rushes you and your family.

While it's certainly productive for the sorts of westernised societies that we have these days to try and minimise violence, there's a problem with attempting to remove the tendency towards violence completely. Namely, that unless you have overwhelming capabilities at defense, you're immediately vulnerable to anyone who does use violence.

Treating it really simplistically, two violent people have Nash equilibria, whether they both decide to attack or both refrain. Against a pacifist, there's no reason for a violent person not to attack, unless there's a third party threatening retaliation. Which is why we have policemen, armies and international treaties.

While altruism and thinking of the larger group is important, everything comes from being able to look after you and yours. Violence is necessary to be able to do that.

 

[Dotini]

Being raised on a diet of John Wayne western cowboy movies, I learned that fists and guns are acceptable methods of conflict resolution.

 

[JKgo]

Violence is necessary to be able to do that.

...I'd venture to add, that rather than pure, meaningless violence, strength to overhelm your opponent is far more important, be it physical or psychological.

Like @Dotini above, growing up I was fed a very steady diet of 80's action flicks and Hong Kong martial arts movies. They were not very good role models in hindsight.

But like any ol' responsible adults (that I'm trying hard to be one) I guess I need to find a more amicable solution to conflicts that doesn't require too large a medical bill.

...Yes kids, fighting's bad. Don't do it!!

 

[W3H5]

Violence can be a way for people who can't control their anger and frustration to release it all.
Speaking of violence, I never got this thing at all.

Allow me to offer you this for thought:

I quite like fighting. I haven't for a while now but did like to brawl. I fought family and friends who were up for a fight as a way of entertainment (mutually accepted) and I've fought strangers who have sought to bring violence against me - in self defence, if you like.

The reason I enjoyed fighting was not because I was angry or frustrated, quite the opposite in fact, I fought very calmly and with calculated action which anger would inhibit me from doing, I enjoyed the buzz. The surge of adrenalin is amazing and made me feel alive. It's the same reason some people do extreme sport (or drugs).

Very often I'd fight with a colleague who had the same feelings on fighting but also didn't want to pick on members of the public or pick on strangers, so we'd fight each other. This lead to many serious injuries for both of us but we kept doing it for the love of violence.

Sounds crazy, I know. But there was something in both of us, be it genetic or environmental, that lead us to violence.

I often get a feeling that I wouldn't be out of place at war on a battle field. I know in reality I probably wouldn't like that terribly much but the idea of it sparks a primeval instinct inside me.

I feel like punching you in the nads.

That's a bit mean. Of all the places you could punch a man...

 

[ECGadget]

My personal view towards violence is that there are times when it becomes the logical course of action. For example, someone is engaging in a physical fight with you and refuses to back down. In that case a controlled physical violence is the only possible solution, but it has to be controlled. Violence due to anger (whilst we are all prone to it on occasion) is not something I agree with.
The other situation in which violence (usually verbal) can be effective is when you are trying to save someone elses life. I know this because I have scared someone into inaction before, where the action in itself would have been fatal. But even that has to be very well controlled.
That being said, from what I see and hear and feel on rare occasion, it seems that anger and frustration is more often than not the cause of violence. It could be anything from being angry at someone smarter than you to an irrational anger against an entire community. It can even stem from jealousy. And if that anger is allowed to flourish it just grows stronger and stronger until you cannot see past that anger and it pretty much consumes you.

Fighting as a sport though is a very different subject. Things like boxing, martial arts (of which I have done) etc are more about control than raging. Not once during my time in a ring did I feel like I was angry or losing control. I knew exactly what I was doing and never toed the line. It was violence yes, but it was completely controlled, which I feel is very different to the gang violence etc we see.
Outside of that ring I wouldn't touch a single person unless I was in an unavoidable sitution. And martial arts taught me that when that time came, I would remain in control of the natural aggression built into humans

 

[Imari]

...I'd venture to add, that rather than pure, meaningless violence, strength to overhelm your opponent is far more important, be it physical or psychological.

Oh certainly, I just meant that actual physical violence needs to be part of your toolkit. There are other things that you should have as well, and I'd say that it's definitely not the most important, but ultimately you need it to be there.

Physical force is sort of the lowest common denominator for dispute settling. If all else fails, the strongest wins the argument.

 

[DCP]

If you accept mans theory, then yes, there will be continued violence and death and suffering, since it has been the case for billions of years. Proof is in the pudding, we are all still fighting and arguing who is right and wrong. 150 000 lose their lives daily. Even modern technology doesn't change this unfortunately.

If you accept Christ, then you will immediately know that since the rebellion of Adam, mankind has fallen, as well as the world, but God promises to remove that fall, and give those over comers that put their trust in Him, to live that way which He gave us to live since before the fall.

 

[Com Fox]

Allow me to offer you this for thought:

I quite like fighting. I haven't for a while now but did like to brawl. I fought family and friends who were up for a fight as a way of entertainment (mutually accepted) and I've fought strangers who have sought to bring violence against me - in self defence, if you like.

The reason I enjoyed fighting was not because I was angry or frustrated, quite the opposite in fact, I fought very calmly and with calculated action which anger would inhibit me from doing, I enjoyed the buzz. The surge of adrenalin is amazing and made me feel alive. It's the same reason some people do extreme sport (or drugs).

Very often I'd fight with a colleague who had the same feelings on fighting but also didn't want to pick on members of the public or pick on strangers, so we'd fight each other. This lead to many serious injuries for both of us but we kept doing it for the love of violence.

Sounds crazy, I know. But there was something in both of us, be it genetic or environmental, that lead us to violence.

I often get a feeling that I wouldn't be out of place at war on a battle field. I know in reality I probably wouldn't like that terribly much but the idea of it sparks a primeval instinct inside me.

I honestly see fighting for love as more of a competition thing which is truly understandable and not the type I was really addressing.

I like to watch a lot of violence myself and even found the best part of learning self defense was when we actually got to go and do hand-to-hand combat against other people, though I would never go out and harm someone else on a personal note, or attack random people unless if it was for self defense.

As long as it is a mutual agreement to be fighting each other, I think it is totally fine to use violence for love but if you attacked random, innocent people (which you said you don't) then that would reach sadism territory.

That's a bit mean. Of all the places you could punch a man...

Depends on the situation, I think you know my thought on my last post about "no attacking the nans/kiwis".

 

[Rallywagon]

Allow me to offer you this for thought:

I quite like fighting. I haven't for a while now but did like to brawl. I fought family and friends who were up for a fight as a way of entertainment (mutually accepted) and I've fought strangers who have sought to bring violence against me - in self defence, if you like.

The reason I enjoyed fighting was not because I was angry or frustrated, quite the opposite in fact, I fought very calmly and with calculated action which anger would inhibit me from doing, I enjoyed the buzz. The surge of adrenalin is amazing and made me feel alive. It's the same reason some people do extreme sport (or drugs).

Very often I'd fight with a colleague who had the same feelings on fighting but also didn't want to pick on members of the public or pick on strangers, so we'd fight each other. This lead to many serious injuries for both of us but we kept doing it for the love of violence.

Sounds crazy, I know. But there was something in both of us, be it genetic or environmental, that lead us to violence.

I often get a feeling that I wouldn't be out of place at war on a battle field. I know in reality I probably wouldn't like that terribly much but the idea of it sparks a primeval instinct inside me.





That's a bit mean. Of all the places you could punch a man...

Myself and a couple of like minded friends did something similar. We would go out to fields, behind buildings and the alike and hold fight club sessions.sometimes we gloved up, most of the time I just wrapped my hands. You might be surprised at how many people actually do want to fight.
I to am a fan of the fight. That rush is very good. There is nothing like getting punched in the face to remind you you are alive.
What killed fighting for me was getting good. I joined the army and started training in jujitsu and kick boxering. I went through the army's combative program, and continued training in both. Funny thing about the army, you can get paid to play fight club!
After getting out of the army, I got into a fight with a coworker. We got crappy drunk at a Christmas party. I got pukey, and this guy started running his mouth about it. I warned him a time or two to leave me alone, then he said something to my then girlfriend (now wife) so, I got out of out the prone onto my knees, grabbed his legs, slammed him to the ground, mounted and punched him twice. I honestly didn't even realize whatbibwas doing until the second punch, it all happened that fast.
The guy got all ogre faced then ran off. Didn't show up to work for a week. Turns out I broke his eye socket and did some serious damage to his eye. I've not fought since then. That will be 5 years in a month.
I am an avid fan of fighting as a competition, but after that day, it just hasn't had the same spark.

 

[Akmuq]

A punch to the nads is an OP move. Not fair.

 

[Com Fox]

A punch to the nads is an OP move. Not fair.

Your fault for not using something you can and not trying to protect the nads from the attack.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Myself and a couple of like minded friends did something similar. We would go out to fields, behind buildings and the alike and hold fight club sessions.sometimes we gloved up, most of the time I just wrapped my hands. You might be surprised at how many people actually do want to fight.
I to am a fan of the fight. That rush is very good. There is nothing like getting punched in the face to remind you you are alive.
What killed fighting for me was getting good. I joined the army and started training in jujitsu and kick boxering. I went through the army's combative program, and continued training in both. Funny thing about the army, you can get paid to play fight club!
After getting out of the army, I got into a fight with a coworker. We got crappy drunk at a Christmas party. I got pukey, and this guy started running his mouth about it. I warned him a time or two to leave me alone, then he said something to my then girlfriend (now wife) so, I got out of out the prone onto my knees, grabbed his legs, slammed him to the ground, mounted and punched him twice. I honestly didn't even realize whatbibwas doing until the second punch, it all happened that fast.
The guy got all ogre faced then ran off. Didn't show up to work for a week. Turns out I broke his eye socket and did some serious damage to his eye. I've not fought since then. That will be 5 years in a month.
I am an avid fan of fighting as a competition, but after that day, it just hasn't had the same spark.

I was going to say the same thing. Fighting is fun until you really know what you are doing and are big enough and skilled enough to really do some damage. After that, if you have a conscience, you only do it when you're forced to and there's no other way out.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I've had to work on ways of coping with road rage over the decades. I can't completely prevent the red mist, but I know how to recognize the symptoms and avert any untoward incidents.

If I can master this one, then I think I'll be just right in the world.

Being raised on a diet of John Wayne western cowboy movies, I learned that fists and guns are acceptable methods of conflict resolution.

It was the Steven Segal movies that did it for me

 

[LeMansAid]

Inescapable laughing always slowed me down a bit. Didn't matter if it was my skull or their skull copping a battering at the time, I'd still laugh. Once the adrenaline kicks in there's a delightful lunacy to it.

Fights were plentiful where I grew up, but it wasn't all angst and anger. I even remember two guys organising a fight as a birthday present for a third party to watch, and fights would sometimes end with a polite hand shake.