We are very hard on PoDi

[Imari]

That pretty much applies to every game in the history of games. There's no such thing as a perfect game. They are what they are.

It does not. You misunderstand.

Let us simplify our game significantly, how good it is as a game is purely dependent on the number of cars in it. (It's a terrible game, but it's simple).

I have one year to make it.
I have 10 million dollars.
One "car maker" costs 100,000 dollars a year, and makes 5 cars a year.

I make the best game possible by hiring 100 "car makers", and setting them to work for the year.
I make a worse game by hiring less than 100 "car makers" and using the extra money on any other feature.

Now this is obviously horrendously simplified. But as the elements in the game grow more complex, the same applies to things that improve the game, and things that do not. It just becomes far more difficult to optimise. If more staff is a thing that improves a game, then spending money on that is more beneficial than spending it on...more models for the shelf, or nothing at all.

There's no perfect game, but it's certainly possible to judge one game better than another. And it's possible to spend any given amount of money in better or worse ways.

If PD made GT4HD and called it GT6, you wouldn't say "it is what it is", you'd say "what a colossal waste of time and money". There's a gradient between that and an idealised perfect game.


And I say again, if PD could do a better job with more employees (which seems reasonable), and if they have money available that they choose not to spend on that (which seems possible), then they're making a worse game than they could be.


And Zlork, I have never mentioned outsourcing. I have spoken only of increasing their workforce.

 

[DawgCCCP]

"There are critics of the birth of these two categories. But it is humanly impossible to model 1200 cars in premium quality."

Here I disagree, its is not impossible, its just tons and tons of work that must be done.

And since they dont want to outsource for it, well we just have to suck it up and enjoy the "standard" cars.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

That pretty much applies to every game in the history of games. There's no such thing as a perfect game. They are what they are.

I agree.... If previously said logic applies to PD, then in the end EVERYONE could get a bit bigger and make a better game.

 

[MXH]

I agree.... If previously said logic applies to PD, then in the end EVERYONE could get a bit bigger and make a better game.

A larger development team obviously does not equal better/great/perfect games. However, in PD's case it hardly would've hurt if they progressively went from 150 employees to, let us say purely hypothetically, ~210+.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree.... If previously said logic applies to PD, then in the end EVERYONE could get a bit bigger and make a better game.

Yes everyone could get bigger and make a better game but PD has the advantage of what I would guess is the largest development budget/staff member ratio if not in all of console gaming then certainly in the racing/driving genre. Not everyone has the funds to increase staff, I believe PD does.

 

[another_jakhole]

Yes everyone could get bigger and make a better game but PD has the advantage of what I would guess is the largest development budget/staff member ratio if not in all of console gaming then certainly in the racing/driving genre. Not everyone has the funds to increase staff, I believe PD does.

What is Turn 10's budget? Isn't Microsoft 100 + 99 times bigger than Sony? Where are the numbers to Turn 10's Hollywood collaboration's terms? Pirelli?

Then again, GT has weather and time change in SOME of its tracks. That's more that can be said about the Bigger budget of Turn 10's development of their games. Proof that I'm wrong? If not, then how can you say what you're basing THAT argument of to be true? If I'm being an ass, prove it.

 

[Johnnypenso]

What is Turn 10's budget? Isn't Microsoft 100 + 99 times bigger than Sony? Where are the numbers to Turn 10's Hollywood collaboration's terms? Pirelli?

Then again, GT has weather and time change in SOME of its tracks. That's more that can be said about the Bigger budget of Turn 10's development of their games. Proof that I'm wrong? If not, then how can you say what you're basing THAT argument of to be true? If I'm being an ass, prove it.

Don't throw out "what if's" and expect me to prove you're an ass. If you have something to say, do the research and put it out there, don't expect me to do it for you.

And for the record, it's irrelevant how big Microsoft or Sony is when both are already many, many times bigger than the games they produce. The budget for the game should be a function of the revenue for that game, not the size of the parent company. It's a red herring.

 

[another_jakhole]

But all I want to know is what the budget that Turn 10 has? Can you prove that it is less than that of GTA IV or GTA V? Or obviously, can you prove that it isn't less than 70 million USD (which was converted from yen to USD during an interview for GT5, fyi.)


Is it Too much to ask of any one person that doesn't represent Turn 10? Everybody is suggesting that PD, backed by Sony, has an infinite amount of money thrown at them for advancement (lol at that). So what about Turn 10 with Microsoft? Be realistic. FM is thee competitor to other sims on consoles.

 

[sems4arsenal]

But all I want to know is what the budget that Turn 10 has? Can you prove that it is less than that of GTA IV or GTA V?

Pretty sure an exclusive Racing title won't cost the same as GTA V.

shady example but estimate costs of GTA V are 250 Million ish,GT5 70 million dollar ish

 

[another_jakhole]

Pretty sure an exclusive Racing title won't cost the same as GTA V.

shady example but estimate costs of GTA V are 250 Million ish,GT5 70 million dollar ish

Again, you all Know that I'm a fanboy (even though I'm not a bullsheister?). I edited my post. The GTA "comparison" was just for reference. GTA is the greatest multi-platform seller of all time, and Gran Turismo is the greatest seller in PS's history of all time. If I'm wrong, then show me, then show me what Turn 10's budgets are. "I" would "appreciate" it. Let us see. Does any person know?

Please, Turn 10 rep. that is hiding in the GTP forums, tell us what you wish not to shareeeeeeeee.

 

[Spagetti69]

What has T10's budget got to do with anything ?
Grow up.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Again, you all Know that I'm a fanboy (even though I'm not a bullsheister?). I edited my post. The GTA "comparison" was just for reference. GTA is the greatest multi-platform seller of all time, and Gran Turismo is the greatest seller in PS's history of all time. If I'm wrong, then show me, then show me what Turn 10's budgets are. "I" would "appreciate" it. Let us see. Does any person know?

Please, Turn 10 rep. that is hiding in the GTP forums, tell us what you wish not to shareeeeeeeee.

I have no idea but if you think about it in business terms it's highly unlikely Forza games costs more than GT games (although come to think about it Forza 5 will no doubt cost an arm and a leg)because GT is the older series and by far the more successful in terms of profit / 2 cents

 

[SlipZtrEm]

What has T10's budget got to do with anything ?
Grow up.

Exactly this.

If you (Jakhole) want to continue to try and drag this thread off-topic and turn it into another FM vs GT thread, you can be expecting a vacation. This thread is already tenuously a duplicate (we've got a bunch "leave PD/Kaz/GT alone!!!111" threads), don't ruin it.

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

Is Kaz not the same man who said all of the updates for GT5 made it a bit of a muddled up mess, backend code wise? Yet here they are, planning to do it again.

I think he said that for the patches to fix stuff.Not the actual updates.We rarely got updates with GT5 ( am I the only one who remembers everyone trying to see what updates were included in patches, but coming up dry majority of the time?)I personally don't mind updates.
On topic.I do believe people overreact and crucify PD for the smallest things and some people expect a perfect game, but at the same time, I think its necessary because at the end of the day we all want the best game ever.

 

[McLOVIN5489]

Exactly this.

If you (Jakhole) want to continue to try and drag this thread off-topic and turn it into another FM vs GT thread, you can be expecting a vacation. This thread is already tenuously a duplicate (we've got a bunch "leave PD/Kaz/GT alone!!!111" threads), don't ruin it.

The catalyst argument was over PDs budget in comparison to other companies,in which he has a valid question/point to be made..... Furthermore, there are plenty of "let's TRASH kaz/Pd/GT" threads as well so there's that.... I'm not afraid to say it.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I think he said that for the patches to fix stuff.Not the actual updates.We rarely got updates with GT5 ( am I the only one who remembers everyone trying to see what updates were included in patches, but coming up dry majority of the time?)I personally don't mind updates.
On topic.I do believe people overreact and crucify PD for the smallest things and some people expect a perfect game, but at the same time, I think its necessary because at the end of the day we all want the best game ever.

To be fair, you'll always find the most criticisms at fan sites; we're the people who comb over every aspect of the game, not the casuals. If the hardcore players can't find faults, then what areas will the developers know they could improve on?

I know personally I don't expect a perfect game at all. My biggest criticism has been about a consistency in quality (two-tier car models, uneven track treatments, poor utilization of NASCAR and WRC licenses, etc) and a push towards more realistic physics - specifically in the tire model department. I don't expect the impossible, like every car being Premium!

As for the updates/patches thing Samus touches on; I think the difference is, judging by Kaz' interviews, GT6 has been designed in a more modular way, so that things can be patched in much easier. Sort of like apps for the vanilla shipped copy. GT5, on the other hand, seemed to get a lot of patches that were sort of band-aids (judging by the fix-one-thing, break-another aspect of a lot of them), and PD seem to have focused on that background aspect more this time around 👍

The catalyst argument was over PDs budget in comparison to other companies,in which he has a valid question/point to be made..... Furthermore, there are plenty of "let's TRASH kaz/Pd/GT" threads as well so there's that.... I'm not afraid to say it.

...and as one game has historically not announced its budget, there's not much point in bringing that up, is there?

I think you're mixing up criticisms as trashing. You're certainly not alone in having a hard time separating the two - but it doesn't make them synonyms. I met the man, and love the series, but I still have criticisms precisely because I care about it, and want it to be the best.

 

[Dude27]

Maybe GT ambition as a AAA game is so inflated now that PD just can't deliver a full experience anymore... not enough resource, not enough budget... he speaks about his little team from the good old days of GT1.... Wake up, Kaz, it's 2013-14, triple AAA games NEED Blockbuster's movie budgets and 1000+ teams now!!!

No wonder why we get these half baked GT games.... one solution: KEEP IT SIMPLE, KEEP IT ON TRACK, FOCUS ON THE ESSENTIAL AND GT FAULTS, and finally, DON'T TRY TO INCLUDE ALL THE CRAZIEST IDEAS OF YOURS IN! You just don't have the budget nor the resource anymore!!!

 

[Dmarc_Atl]

To be fair, you'll always find the most criticisms at fan sites; we're the people who comb over every aspect of the game, not the casuals. If the hardcore players can't find faults, then what areas will the developers know they could improve on?

I know personally I don't expect a perfect game at all. My biggest criticism has been about a consistency in quality (two-tier car models, uneven track treatments, poor utilization of NASCAR and WRC licenses, etc) and a push towards more realistic physics - specifically in the tire model department. I don't expect the impossible, like every car being Premium!

Thats true.I noticed that on other forums dedicated to certain games.At first I used to think it was just this site, but now I see its normal and actually necessary for progress.If it was up to me, the tire physics wouldn't have changed at all because I don't know much of anything about how a tire is suppose to react lol.Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

 

[another_jakhole]

What has T10's budget got to do with anything ?
Grow up.

I'm a real boy!

Exactly this.

If you (Jakhole) want to continue to try and drag this thread off-topic and turn it into another FM vs GT thread, you can be expecting a vacation. This thread is already tenuously a duplicate (we've got a bunch "leave PD/Kaz/GT alone!!!111" threads), don't ruin it.

How is it any different than others saying that other developers can do it with "less" support? A person, or some people, are insinuating that PD can do better based on budgets and the excess of money that Sony can support them for "completing" their game. SomeOne is saying that PD has the advantage in this case, but Microsoft is the giant in this case. I ask, "How great of a budget/leash does Turn 10 have?" Now more than other times is this more relevant considering that SomeOne thinks the budget of a studio/developer of soon to be released games is as significant as the experience of the current employees of Turn 10 and PD.

*REMOVED*

The catalyst argument was over PDs budget in comparison to other companies,in which he has a valid question/point to be made..... Furthermore, there are plenty of "let's TRASH kaz/Pd/GT" threads as well so there's that.... I'm not afraid to say it.

I thank you.
You might not have any idea why I thank you as much as I do, but I'm grateful for your backing. It's such a 🤬 relief!

I just feel... I just feel... Thank YOU!

I have no idea but if you think about it in business terms it's highly unlikely Forza games costs more than GT games (although come to think about it Forza 5 will no doubt cost an arm and a leg)because GT is the older series and by far the more successful in terms of profit / 2 cents

Honestly, it seems reasonable, but I don't believe that. We'll need proof of it. I mean, +1,000 employees and unlimited livery creations. How would it be possible?

I honestly feel like crud for saying this to You and others, but for crying out loud (and lack of a better expression), I think there needs to be more damage control. Whenever there is any kind of damage control for GT/PD/Kaz, it's shut down by a few members.



EDIT -

This is (one of) the reasons you are "targeted". Maybe avoid caps lock unless needed.

I tend to avoid you as much as I possibly CAN. Is that not RigHT?

It's not against the rules/AUP since I tend to emphasize words/thoughts/letters.

 

[machschnel]

*SomeOne
*ONLY
*(I added the ***ht*** type stuff), and now this?
*CONSTANTLY.
*THIS THREAD and a PM

This is (one of) the reasons you are "targeted". Maybe avoid caps lock unless needed.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Thats true.I noticed that on other forums dedicated to certain games.At first I used to think it was just this site, but now I see its normal and actually necessary for progress.If it was up to me, the tire physics wouldn't have changed at all because I don't know much of anything about how a tire is suppose to react lol.Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Well, tires are some of the most complicated bits to understand on a car, so I'll be first to admit it's far from an easy ask! But one only needs to look at GT Academy to see why improvements in that area could be beneficial; the top times in the game seldom showed the sort of driving that would work best in the real world. An improved tire model would help that.

And, as the most-used example; I shouldn't be able to launch a Shelby Cobra or Cerbera Speed 12 from a stand-still, and have it proceed perfectly arrow-straight every time

I'm a real boy!

How is it any different than others saying that other developers can do it with "less" support? A person, or some people, are insinuating that PD can do better based on budgets and the excess of money that Sony can support them for "completing" their game. SomeOne is saying that PD has the advantage in this case, but Microsoft is the giant in this case. I ask, "How great of a budget/leash does Turn 10 have?" Now more than other times is this more relevant considering that SomeOne thinks the budget of a studio/developer of soon to be released games is as significant as the experience of the current employees of Turn 10 and PD.

(The following is copy/pasta'd from a PM sent to you. The rest, as it has nothing to do with the thread and everything to do with questioning the moderation, has been edited out of your post, and responded to in said PM):

PD has the advantage in the sense that they have a far smaller number of employees than other competitors (for example, T10), while having a much higher sales tally than competitors. Now, naturally none of us know what sort of profit they get from their sales - like how much of it goes to Sony, or how many of the sales were the bargain-bin later special editions - but looking at strictly the employee and sales count, it really isn't unreasonable to look at and consider PD very much has the ability to hire more modelers if they want.

This is (one of) the reasons you are "targeted". Maybe avoid caps lock unless needed.

I tend to avoid you as much as I possibly CAN. Is that not RigHT?

It's not against the rules/AUP since I tend to emphasize words/thoughts/letters.

Yet...

Decent grammar is expected at all times, including proper usage of capital letters.

Typically, bold or italics are used for emphasis 👍

 

[another_jakhole]

That one thing is what you're targeting now? Like I have said before, it's done for emphasis. With grammar, I've really tried my best and have tried to improve on. I wish I could do better, but me stoopid (I'm funny, right? Please tell me it's so. Please?)

Anyway, I'm bored, but I hope I don't get banned or EVEN a temporary ban for putting emphasis in my sentences and wording. It's all for emphasis, and none of it is to disobey any person (moderator or not) or rule. After + Two/2! years, it's now as big of problem to suspend me from posting on GTP?

What is this, North Kureeuh?

Wait. Is it, "What is this? Northern Kureeuh?"


By the way (btw), what you quoted from my previous post in my opinion (imo) was more of a joke. How is the word "right" meant to be taken seriously? as "RigHT"?

Damn, I'm confusing myself. HELP!

 

[dr_slump]

Maybe GT ambition as a AAA game is so inflated now that PD just can't deliver a full experience anymore... not enough resource, not enough budget... he speaks about his little team from the good old days of GT1.... Wake up, Kaz, it's 2013-14, triple AAA games NEED Blockbuster's movie budgets and 1000+ teams now!!!

That's not Kaz's decision.


And btw, the answer is no.

 

[Lain]

The RAM excuse keeps popping up again and again and still the people doing so can't answer this simple question:

If RAM is the main, underlying issue for poor sounds why do some cars sound very good? Are they accessing some magic RAM?

Simple: Some sounds compress better than others.

 

[Samus]

Simple: Some sounds compress better than others.

Baloney.

 

[Lain]

Baloney.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's the sole reason some sounds in GT are crap and some are good, but it's not baloney that some sounds have higher complexity than others and thus don't compress as well.

For example: If you take a low complexity song and transcode it to a low bitrate MP3, it might still sound acceptable to all but the pickiest of audiophiles, whereas a higher complexity song most certainly wouldn't.

(And to clarify, by complexity I mean the complexity of the sound waveform, NOT the complexity of the guitar solos, the wub wub wubs, or anything else that is discernible from listening to it since that stuff doesn't necessarily correlate to waveform complexity.)

 

[Tornado]

...and as one game has historically not announced its budget, there's not much point in bringing that up, is there?

But it was like a hundred million or something according to that one site.

 

[XxHighWayStarXx]

In a nutshell, if you're the head honcho & your venture is struggling under the workloads you have set and the time constraints that go with them then you have over stretched your reach. Pretty obvious really.
All these complex theories and "behind-the-scenes at PD" imaginings over the why's and wherefor's of their struggles to get their game implemented properly are quite humourous really, especially when all PD have to do is stop taking on more than they can handle.
Seems they haven't caught onto that revolutionary notion yet.

 

[PletdeKoe]

To behonest, I feel the gaming community, the ones who responds on websites and forums, are to hard on anything. Everybit of news is beeing accompanied by a lot of screaming and yelling. It is a sad thing I believe.

 

[amar212]

Maybe GT ambition as a AAA game is so inflated now that PD just can't deliver a full experience anymore... not enough resource, not enough budget... he speaks about his little team from the good old days of GT1.... Wake up, Kaz, it's 2013-14, triple AAA games NEED Blockbuster's movie budgets and 1000+ teams now!!!

No wonder why we get these half baked GT games.... one solution: KEEP IT SIMPLE, KEEP IT ON TRACK, FOCUS ON THE ESSENTIAL AND GT FAULTS, and finally, DON'T TRY TO INCLUDE ALL THE CRAZIEST IDEAS OF YOURS IN! You just don't have the budget nor the resource anymore!!!

Maybe you - and other that thinks like you - actually have NO IDEA about what Polyphony actually want GT series to be. So, you decided to deny what GT series basically IS and what it TRIES to do for 15 consecutive years and instead you built your own personal and subjective mental image about what would YOU want for GT to be and what and how it should deliver - and your personal and subjective dissapointment is inevitable.

I sincerely think that many should try to understand what PD actually does with GT series since the first game and what are the reasons why GT series is like it is. Trying to comprehend everything regarding GT development and design philosophy from personal and subjective perspective tied with experiences of some other games from the genre is a straight path to missunderstanding and completely wrong expectations.

IMO, of course.